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Old 23rd December 2020, 12:33 PM   #41
HansMustermann
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Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
If you imagine moving your hand, it moves in reality...
No it doesn't. I can make it move, but I can always just imagine things without automatically enacting them.

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
If you imagine flying, you don't in reality...
Unless I'm in an airplane, but ok...

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
If a bird imagines flying, it may fly in reality...
We have no idea what birds imagine.

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
What you imagine doesn't change what is real
Except when it does, according to you. E.g., "If you imagine moving your hand, it moves in reality". I mean the quoted sentence is false, but just to show how incoherent and self-contradictory your argument is.

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
but what is real does change what you imagine
Except when it doesn't. I'm pretty sure I didn't start fantasizing about using one, when someone invented the tazer. (Not so sure about some US cops, mind you, but I didn't.)

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
and what is real changes what you imagine throughout your entire life, if what you imagine isn't real.
If some of what I imagine isn't real in the first place, what reason would it have to change?

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
Regarding patience and you, here's a summary

1.You need patience to have fun. Why?
2.You need patience to find out why. Why again?
3. Because you find this out in a funny way.
4. Sometimes it is more fun than what you can handle at that moment in your life.
5. Sometime it is less fun than what you want at that moment in your life.
6. But, when you are having a good time, it is just the right amount of fun.
7. And to find those times, it come back to the beginning my friend.
8. You need patience to have fun.
Now you've introduced an even more spurious element, if the point was the difference between what can be imagined and what is real. Being fun is NOT a requirement for something being either real or imaginable.

As a trivial example, Stalin's purges are generally regarded as not fun, but obviously
A. someone could imagine a purge of the officers or doctors, before
B. it became real.

But basically, do you even have a point, or just spout the first random thing that comes to mind? You're going in all sorts of tangents that don't seem to connect together in any logical way.

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
If you get agitated by me reading this ("What is this #$&(#@@# dude writing", try to imagine how much patience I have to imagine to do this...)
I'm not. I'm just amazed at how uncannily this resembles the meaningless stream of words a Markov Chains program would produce.

But that's neither here nor there. What matters is: so what is your POINT? Exactly how do you connect all those spurious elements about fun, patience, irritation, and everything else into a coherent logical argument?

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
It means you need patience to have fun in reality...
That's actually trivially false, since there's a lot of ways to have fun by immediate gratification. Most trivial example: have a wank. Second most trivial: computer games.

But generally, it's a weird position to propose, when for the last century straight entertainment has moved more and more towards immediate gratification. There's a lot of stuff you can just have fun with from the get go, no patience needed, and actually the trend is to have more and more of those.

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
The third example means, that regardless of what you imagine if you imagine freely whatever you want, you don't know what happens next in reality.
Yes, that's pretty much a truism. So? Does that lead to any actual conclusion?

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
The only thing you do know with certainty in reality, is that you don't know, as this repeats throughout your life, with things your imagination is not experienced enough with.
Being experienced or not with imagining something, doesn't have ANY impact whatsoever on predicting if it will happen or not. Whether you're the most experienced person in the world at imagining rolling some dice, or a tribesman who's never even seen dice before, you still can't predict which numbers will come up.

But basically, again: so? Are you going to use all those spurious elements to actually reach some conclusion?

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
This is why you need patience to have fun in reality, so that when you don't have fun, you wait a bit to calm down, and rethink what to do.
Even skipping past it being false, it's a literal non-sequitur. It doesn't follow at all, in any form or shape, from the premises you wrote before the "this is why".

Well, assuming those were actually supposed to be premises, i.e., actually answer the question "why", as opposed to just some random disconnected sentences.

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
When one is impatient, it is unlikely that one is paying attention to how one feels about something
Yes, and? Whether or not I am paying attention to how I feel about a coin flip, doesn't change that it happens.

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
and one's imagination may be carrying one away from reality...
What does that even mean? Carry you away from reality... how?

You're still very much in the same reality as everyone else, whether you fantasize something else or not. If you don't pay attention to your surroundings and drive your car into a tree, you may find out that the tree is still real, even if it wasn't there in whatever flight of fantasy you were having at the moment.

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
I think I can imagine how you can see that this last phrase is troubling even for me my friend, no?
Troubling... how? Really, is this going anywhere, or am I just supposed to imagine what troubles you?
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Old 23rd December 2020, 03:18 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
No it doesn't. I can make it move, but I can always just imagine things without automatically enacting them.
It's an odd claim. I can imagine moving any part of my body without anything happening.

I have no clue what Alex is trying to get at.


Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Unless I'm in an airplane, but ok...
But according to the previous statement by Alex, if he imagines such an action, he does it. These claims are in direct contradiction.

Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
We have no idea what birds imagine.
Yep. What if a bird imagines that it is a god? Is it then a god?

The whole topic is incoherent.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 05:38 PM   #43
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Yeah, I can't make heads or tails of it. Which is why I keep asking how it's all supposed to connect logically to some conclusion.

Preferably a conclusion worth anything. "You have to have patience to have fun" is
A. already running around with the goalposts, from something about what's real and what's imaginary, to, well, that
B. trivially false
C. not following from any of the stated premises, and more importantly,
D. while technically it would count as philosophy, it's really in the same way and at the same level as Beavis and Butthead's "why is it called taking a dump, when you're not taking it anywhere?"
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Old 23rd December 2020, 10:39 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
If you imagine moving your hand, it moves in reality...
If you imagine flying, you don't in reality...
If a bird imagines flying, it may fly in reality...

What you imagine doesn't change what is real, but what is real does change what you imagine, and what is real changes what you imagine throughout your entire life, if what you imagine isn't real.
The above is not relevant, your OP is not concerned with coorelation or causation between reality and imagination, but is physical movement of hand same or different, above or below (lesser/greater?)etc to imagination?
It would seem that possibilities are: imagination is not real, or imagination is real (subset?). . . so for starters, how do you define 'reality' . . . therein should be the answer to your question in OP.
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Old 26th December 2020, 03:15 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
Hi all,
I have the below and are looking for what is missing, anyone who can help, please do.

When all there is, is more than my imagination
When all there is, is more than my imagination, then it is equal to the patience I have to find them in reality, because

Otherwise when all there is, is more than my imagination, then it is not equal to the patience I have to find them in reality, but

If in the end when all there is, is more than my imagination, then is is not equal to the patience I have to find them in reality, it doesn't seem to me that the patience I imagine I have is enough, to be within reality.

When all there is, is other than my imagination
When all there is, is other than my imagination, then my imagination is outside of reality, because

when all there is, is other than my imagination, my imagination is inside reality, but

if in the end, when all there is, is other than my imagination, my imagination is inside reality, it doesn't seem to me outside of reality what I imagine there is.

When all there is, is equal to my imagination
When all there is, is equal to my imagination, then outside of my imagination is the patience I have to find the rest from me in reality, because

Otherwise when all there is, is equal to my imagination, then inside my imagination is the patience I have to find the rest from me in reality, but

If in the end, when all there is, is equal to my imagination, then inside my imagination is the patience I have to find the rest from me in reality, it doesn't seem to me when I imagine me and the rest from me together as all there is, how much patience is enough so that the rest find me in reality, outside of my imagination.

When all there is, is below my imagination
When all there is, is below my imagination, then more patience I imagine I have to find them in reality, because

Otherwise when all there is, is below my imagination, then less or equal patience I imagine I have to find them in reality, but

If in the end when all there is, is below my imagination, then less or equal patience I imagine I have to find them in reality, it doesn't seem to me I imagine how much patience is above my imagination in reality.
Moderately good use of anaphora. Apart from that, no idea.
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Old 30th December 2020, 11:45 AM   #46
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maybe less mushrooms next time.
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Old 31st December 2020, 04:19 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
It's an odd claim. I can imagine moving any part of my body without anything happening.

I have no clue what Alex is trying to get at.
hmm someone of use in here, an honest remark...

You can imagine moving any part of your body without anything happening, is a valid claim.
1)Here's your example: "I am imagining now that my hand is moving but it is not moving".
fair enough...

let's go a bit further into imagination to verify this.

2)Here's my example: "I am imagining now that my hand is flying on the air on its own disconnected from my rest body, without anything happening"
fair enough also (unless I was wrong about the honest remark, but we will see if you are honest or playing "I don't understand" here)

3)Here's the worst case example: "My hands are moving, and I am not imagining anything, if I actually focus on my hands, I don't know why they are moving"
which is fair, if you have some sort of a problem, because for the rest of you, when you want your hands to move, all you have to do is imagine them moving, and when you want them to stop, all you have to do is also just imagine them stop.

Because when that doesn't happen in your life, you are doing something that doesn't seem to be happening.

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
But according to the previous statement by Alex, if he imagines such an action, he does it. These claims are in direct contradiction.
If I imagine an action, it may or may not be doable, such is the case for me, such is the case for you also.

If I imagine moving my body, to the extend that is physically possible, my instincts allow me to move my body.

If I imagine moving my body, beyond the extend that is physically possible, my instincts either don't allow me to move my body, so my instincts allow me to understand what doesn't seem to be happening, or my instincts allow me to imagine this, and reality corrects my instincts by reminding me what seems to be happening..

something else than what I imagine seems to be happening, and this seems to me to be happening for the rest of you, and the rest of you seem to have no idea about it.

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Yep. What if a bird imagines that it is a god? Is it then a god?

The whole topic is incoherent.
If a bird imagines that it is a god, if this is what seemed to be happening, then the bird would be god.

But...it seems to me that both me and you know that this isn't the case.

As it holds for me, so it holds for birds, that from what a bird can freely imagine, not everything is doable in reality by the bird.
Each species has freedom to imagine whatever that species wishes, and in the end what seems to be happening is something else than any species is imagining.

That something else, allows all species to do what they are made to do using their imagination, and when their imagination is not within reality, reality happens, and hopefully they learn
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Old 31st December 2020, 07:08 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
hmm someone of use in here, an honest remark...

You can imagine moving any part of your body without anything happening, is a valid claim.
1)Here's your example: "I am imagining now that my hand is moving but it is not moving".
fair enough...

let's go a bit further into imagination to verify this.

2)Here's my example: "I am imagining now that my hand is flying on the air on its own disconnected from my rest body, without anything happening"
fair enough also (unless I was wrong about the honest remark, but we will see if you are honest or playing "I don't understand" here)

3)Here's the worst case example: "My hands are moving, and I am not imagining anything, if I actually focus on my hands, I don't know why they are moving"
which is fair, if you have some sort of a problem, because for the rest of you, when you want your hands to move, all you have to do is imagine them moving, and when you want them to stop, all you have to do is also just imagine them stop.
I'm at a loss as to why the latter is a problem most of the time. You "do" things all the time that are one or more of:

A) just physics at work. E.g., if you're standing in a bus going over a bumpy safari road, and one of your arms is hanging down, it will move just because of the normal laws of mechanics each time the car wobbles around. No mystery there.

B) autonomous reactions that are not under your control. E.g., trembling when you're very cold.

C) reflexes. E.g., if your hands moves to drive off a fly from your face.

D) synapse misfiring problems at some point along the way, such as in Parkinson, alcohol withdrawal, etc.

But ok, even taking those three at face value, for the scope of this exercise, well, what implication are you going for, from there?

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
Because when that doesn't happen in your life, you are doing something that doesn't seem to be happening.
If it's not happening, you're not really doing it. You may be imagining it, but you're not doing it.

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
If I imagine an action, it may or may not be doable, such is the case for me, such is the case for you also.
Obviously.

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
If I imagine moving my body, to the extend that is physically possible, my instincts allow me to move my body.

If I imagine moving my body, beyond the extend that is physically possible, my instincts either don't allow me to move my body, so my instincts allow me to understand what doesn't seem to be happening, or my instincts allow me to imagine this, and reality corrects my instincts by reminding me what seems to be happening..

something else than what I imagine seems to be happening, and this seems to me to be happening for the rest of you, and the rest of you seem to have no idea about it.
Not sure why you think you're the first one to notice that some things happen whether you imagine it or not.

In fact, the idea that the rest of the world is distinct from what's in your head, is something most people have thoroughly internalized before the age of FOUR (and in fact some aspects of it as early as the age of TWO,) according to Piaget's development model. So unless you think this is a board for toddlers, the assumption that "the rest of you seem to have no idea about it" is rather unwarranted.

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
If a bird imagines that it is a god, if this is what seemed to be happening, then the bird would be god.

But...it seems to me that both me and you know that this isn't the case.

As it holds for me, so it holds for birds, that from what a bird can freely imagine, not everything is doable in reality by the bird.
Each species has freedom to imagine whatever that species wishes, and in the end what seems to be happening is something else than any species is imagining.

That something else, allows all species to do what they are made to do using their imagination, and when their imagination is not within reality, reality happens, and hopefully they learn
Uh, obviously, but that's hardly some great revelation.
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Old 31st December 2020, 07:17 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
Hi all,
I have the below and are looking for what is missing, anyone who can help, please do.

When all there is, is more than my imagination
When all there is, is more than my imagination, then it is equal to the patience I have to find them in reality, because

Otherwise when all there is, is more than my imagination, then it is not equal to the patience I have to find them in reality, but

If in the end when all there is, is more than my imagination, then is is not equal to the patience I have to find them in reality, it doesn't seem to me that the patience I imagine I have is enough, to be within reality.

When all there is, is other than my imagination
When all there is, is other than my imagination, then my imagination is outside of reality, because

when all there is, is other than my imagination, my imagination is inside reality, but

if in the end, when all there is, is other than my imagination, my imagination is inside reality, it doesn't seem to me outside of reality what I imagine there is.

When all there is, is equal to my imagination
When all there is, is equal to my imagination, then outside of my imagination is the patience I have to find the rest from me in reality, because

Otherwise when all there is, is equal to my imagination, then inside my imagination is the patience I have to find the rest from me in reality, but

If in the end, when all there is, is equal to my imagination, then inside my imagination is the patience I have to find the rest from me in reality, it doesn't seem to me when I imagine me and the rest from me together as all there is, how much patience is enough so that the rest find me in reality, outside of my imagination.

When all there is, is below my imagination
When all there is, is below my imagination, then more patience I imagine I have to find them in reality, because

Otherwise when all there is, is below my imagination, then less or equal patience I imagine I have to find them in reality, but

If in the end when all there is, is below my imagination, then less or equal patience I imagine I have to find them in reality, it doesn't seem to me I imagine how much patience is above my imagination in reality.
It is missing bacon, and I don't just mean one rasher. We are talking 3 or 4 slices of back, folded into a morning roll with a good dollop of HP.
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Old 31st December 2020, 07:36 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
It is missing bacon, and I don't just mean one rasher. We are talking 3 or 4 slices of back, folded into a morning roll with a good dollop of HP.

HP Lovecraft? You like tentacles on your morning roll?

That is below my imagination, but I don't find the patience to surround.
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Old 31st December 2020, 09:29 AM   #51
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Old 1st January 2021, 11:32 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
hmm someone of use in here, an honest remark...
"Honest" being defined as affirmation of your belief that you've presented some impressively deep philosophical revelation. Our failure to agree is clearly what is causing you to respond with petty insults.
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Old 1st January 2021, 12:15 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
hmm someone of use in here, an honest remark...

You can imagine moving any part of your body without anything happening, is a valid claim.
1)Here's your example: "I am imagining now that my hand is moving but it is not moving".
fair enough...

let's go a bit further into imagination to verify this.
Have you some objection to the notion that I can imagine any limb moving without it actually moving?

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
2)Here's my example: "I am imagining now that my hand is flying on the air on its own disconnected from my rest body, without anything happening"
fair enough also (unless I was wrong about the honest remark, but we will see if you are honest or playing "I don't understand" here)
I have had such experience while in surgery. It is quite the novel thing to see one's own disembodied leg tossed about with abandon. So what?

Also, sly insult noted.

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
3)Here's the worst case example: "My hands are moving, and I am not imagining anything, if I actually focus on my hands, I don't know why they are moving"
which is fair, if you have some sort of a problem, because for the rest of you, when you want your hands to move, all you have to do is imagine them moving, and when you want them to stop, all you have to do is also just imagine them stop.
Nope. Imagining my hands moving and actually moving my hands are two very different and distinct processes. It is impossible to confuse one with the other.

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
Because when that doesn't happen in your life, you are doing something that doesn't seem to be happening.
That's because imagination is not limited by reality.

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
If I imagine an action, it may or may not be doable, such is the case for me, such is the case for you also.
Wrong. I can distinguish between imagination and reality. I can close my eyes and imagine myself as a superhero doing all manner of heroic deeds. I can even "see" it. Doesn't make it real, nor do my limbs perform whatever heroic actions. It is merely a construct of the mind. Sure, it amuses me to entertain the notion of inserting myself into the scenario of whatever the last movie I watched, but you are suggesting that my body will perform whatever actions I imagine and I cannot prevent that.

That is plainly nonsense. Because it simply does not happen.

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
If I imagine moving my body, to the extend that is physically possible, my instincts allow me to move my body.
So if you imagine that you can fly, you really take to the air? Really?

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
If I imagine moving my body, beyond the extend that is physically possible, my instincts either don't allow me to move my body, so my instincts allow me to understand what doesn't seem to be happening, or my instincts allow me to imagine this, and reality corrects my instincts by reminding me what seems to be happening..
OK. Now you are denying your earlier claims by introducing an extra condition. That is totally dishonest, but whatever.

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
something else than what I imagine seems to be happening, and this seems to me to be happening for the rest of you, and the rest of you seem to have no idea about it.
Nope.


Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
If a bird imagines that it is a god, if this is what seemed to be happening, then the bird would be god.
A bird being a god is beyond it's physical ability, which you claimed above would not be possible. Now you are claiming it is possible. Could you at least try to keep your claims consistent with even themselves?

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
But...it seems to me that both me and you know that this isn't the case.
Wanna bet?

Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
As it holds for me, so it holds for birds, that from what a bird can freely imagine, not everything is doable in reality by the bird.
Each species has freedom to imagine whatever that species wishes, and in the end what seems to be happening is something else than any species is imagining.

That something else, allows all species to do what they are made to do using their imagination, and when their imagination is not within reality, reality happens, and hopefully they learn
That is known as a Gish Gallop. Stick to the point at hand.
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Old 1st January 2021, 04:08 PM   #54
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To be fair, for it to even be a Gish Gallop, or any other kind of fallacy, it would have to be an argument in the first place, i.e., (pretend to) support a conclusion. I'm still at a loss what the conclusion would even be in this thread. It seemed to be about some kind of relationship between reality and imagination at first, but even then it was never clear to me what is CLAIMED about that relationship. And then it went through so many spurious extra conditions like whether you have fun while checking it, that it just got even harder to tell what it's about.

So, anyway, it seems to me like not even a Gish Gallop as such, but just a collection of seemingly unconnected random thoughts.

I suppose we could say he went for proof by intimidation (as in proclaiming it to be obvious, or rather that you're just faking it if you say you didn't understand) for some of the individual claims, but exactly to what conclusion do they point, much less exactly how they support it, is still a mystery.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 12:50 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by AlexPontik View Post
Hi all,
I have the below and are looking for what is missing, anyone who can help, please do.

When all there is, is more than my imagination
When all there is, is more than my imagination, then it is equal to the patience I have to find them in reality, because

Otherwise when all there is, is more than my imagination, then it is not equal to the patience I have to find them in reality, but

If in the end when all there is, is more than my imagination, then is is not equal to the patience I have to find them in reality, it doesn't seem to me that the patience I imagine I have is enough, to be within reality.

When all there is, is other than my imagination
When all there is, is other than my imagination, then my imagination is outside of reality, because

when all there is, is other than my imagination, my imagination is inside reality, but

if in the end, when all there is, is other than my imagination, my imagination is inside reality, it doesn't seem to me outside of reality what I imagine there is.

When all there is, is equal to my imagination
When all there is, is equal to my imagination, then outside of my imagination is the patience I have to find the rest from me in reality, because

Otherwise when all there is, is equal to my imagination, then inside my imagination is the patience I have to find the rest from me in reality, but

If in the end, when all there is, is equal to my imagination, then inside my imagination is the patience I have to find the rest from me in reality, it doesn't seem to me when I imagine me and the rest from me together as all there is, how much patience is enough so that the rest find me in reality, outside of my imagination.

When all there is, is below my imagination
When all there is, is below my imagination, then more patience I imagine I have to find them in reality, because

Otherwise when all there is, is below my imagination, then less or equal patience I imagine I have to find them in reality, but

If in the end when all there is, is below my imagination, then less or equal patience I imagine I have to find them in reality, it doesn't seem to me I imagine how much patience is above my imagination in reality.
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