Coronavirus and faith - Page 7

The Atheist · 13th May 2020, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi

I don't know why people are so easy to provoke in the middle east and north africa.

I'm not sure it's just you, mate - there are plenty of people everywhere that are far too easy to provoke.

USA's homicide rate is more than double Morocco's.

Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi

But, just the fact that we are jailed for not fasting, and that this law is not applied most of the time, is a bliss , compared to other countries.

Long may that continue!

Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi

We still don't know whether this quarantine will end on 20th May , or that the government will extand it to the 20th of June.

Well, your country and your neighbour, Algeria, both seem to be managing it pretty well so far. Morocco isn't that far behind Australia in the Covid stats, which has a GDP/capita 15 times higher.

Thor 2 · 13th May 2020, 01:42 PM

Here's a new twist - a church promoting bleach as a medicine.

It seemed they may have been the ones that convinced that intellectual giant Donald Trump to promote this as a cure.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-...fined/12242150

Quote:

The Australian chapter of an international church selling and promoting bleach as a cure for COVID-19 has been issued infringement notices totalling $151,200.
The Genesis II Church of Health and Healing has been claiming chlorine dioxide is a "miracle cure".
For years it has sold the industrial bleach as Miracle Mineral Solution (MMS), stating it can cure things like autism, acne, cancer, diabetes and now COVID-19.

What will we have next? Now we have a church selling a medicine! Will we have doctors and pharmacies giving spiritual guidance in response?

Thor 2 · 13th May 2020, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi

It is not disturbing if they are just 30 people. There are 3 prayers in which our streets become crowded :

- The Friday prayer : every friday ... but it can be done in a mosque.

- The two Eids , Adhaa (sacrifice) and Fitr (opening the fast after Ramadan) : once a year each... can only be done outdoors (even if mosques are empty)

By the way, this is a funny picture, they missed the Kibla (I think this is in Iraq) hhh :

https://www.yahosein.com/vb/filedata/fetch?id=3306769

Yes that is funny. It would seem that prayers can go around corners.

I suppose we sort of knew this already, because muslims pray in a horizontal direction towards Mecca, regardless of where they are on the globe.Relating to this a mischievous thought occurred to me some time ago.

In French Polynesia there is a point that is precisely opposite Mecca on the globe. I thought this would make a good site for a holy resort for Muslims, as every direction is the same distance to Mecca. Mind you the prayers would have to follow the curvature of the Earth, and turn through 180 degrees on the way.

The Atheist · 13th May 2020, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Here's a new twist - a church promoting bleach as a medicine.

They've been scamming people for years with that crap. Apparently it cures cancer as well.

To be fair to the churches involved, I agree that drinking enough of it will stop you dying from a disease.

MohamedTaqi · 13th May 2020, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I'm not sure it's just you, mate - there are plenty of people everywhere that are far too easy to provoke.

USA's homicide rate is more than double Morocco's.

The two main reasons I think are :

1) US population is about 9 times (and more diverse) than that of Morocco.

2) In the US , gun ownership is legal , which is not the case in Morocco. Murder in Morocco is quite difficult compared to the US.

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Well, your country and your neighbour, Algeria, both seem to be managing it pretty well so far. Morocco isn't that far behind Australia in the Covid stats, which has a GDP/capita 15 times higher.

But Australia did a better job with more than 909,000 reported tests so far. Compared it to 75,000 tests in Morocco.

So, even if the stats are close, they do not reflect the size of the test sample. 6500 cases from 75,000 tests is nothing near 6900 cases from 909000 tests.

Anyway, we wish the best for all countries, I really miss coffee shops and bars.

MohamedTaqi · 13th May 2020, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Yes that is funny. It would seem that prayers can go around corners.

I suppose we sort of knew this already, because muslims pray in a horizontal direction towards Mecca, regardless of where they are on the globe.Relating to this a mischievous thought occurred to me some time ago.

In French Polynesia there is a point that is precisely opposite Mecca on the globe. I thought this would make a good site for a holy resort for Muslims, as every direction is the same distance to Mecca. Mind you the prayers would have to follow the curvature of the Earth, and turn through 180 degrees on the way.

The Qur'an states that wherever a person is, they can just choose a direction for prayer if they don't know the kibla. I never checked if there is a Fatwa for that.

Anyhow, I personally think that whoever founded Islam believed that the earth is flat. But there are always ambiguous Hadeeths and verses in the Qur'an, that can be interpreted in ways that help Muslims deal with different circumstances the founders of this religion didn't even imagine.

MohamedTaqi · 13th May 2020, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

I suppose we sort of knew this already, because muslims pray in a horizontal direction towards Mecca, regardless of where they are on the globe.Relating to this a mischievous thought occurred to me some time ago.

Besides, there are Fatwas that forbid travel to Mars ... since the Kibla would be complicated there (they would have to determine where the location of earth is).

And, The Qur'an says that humans will live an die and be resurrected here on earth .. and that the earth will assume a different shape (no mountains or oceans), and people will grow like plants from their graves. While Hadeeth says that the earth will turn into a white smooth and flat area, and people will grow from the ground, stand up and look upwards, waiting for God's judgment for thousands of years.

That would not be possible we travel to Mars, that's why some Sheikhs say that such a travel is Haram.

But once people start to colonise Mars, I guess Muslims clerics and scholars will make up new interpretations, that's what they've been doing for 1400 years.

gypsyjackson · 13th May 2020, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi

If someone is caught eating here during Ramadan, unless they are pregnant, child, physically or mentally ill. They may spend between 1 - 6 months in jail.

Act 222 states : a person commonly known to be Muslim, who violates the fast in a public place during Ramadan, without having one of the justifications allowed in Islam shall be sentenced from one to six months in jail .

But in general, these laws are not applied (most of the time), because authorities tend to ignore smokers or non-fasters. However, one would cause himself trouble, eating during the day in Ramadan is a taboo.

Human right activist attempts are carried out in order to cancel this act.

Same here - fine of up to RM1000 (roughly 250 USD) and/or jail sentence of up to six months for Muslims caught eating during Ramadan. That’s in the Federal Territories; states can have different punishments. Some states are alleged to send out enforcement officers to pretend to be waiters and cooks to catch day time eaters. The more hardline states of Terengganu and Kelantan have a maximum of one year’s jail.

The former state also recently jailed a 17 year old, with 5 other men up to 35, for one month and imposed a fine of RM2400 (roughly 600 USD) for missing Friday prayers.

These offences don’t seem to be enforced right now, or at least I haven’t heard about them. Usually enforcement makes the news, either because it’s relatively rare or pour encourager les autres.

gypsyjackson · 13th May 2020, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi

Besides, there are Fatwas that forbid travel to Mars ... since the Kibla would be complicated there (they would have to determine where the location of earth is).

And, The Qur'an says that humans will live an die and be resurrected here on earth .. and that the earth will assume a different shape (no mountains or oceans), and people will grow like plants from their graves. While Hadeeth says that the earth will turn into a white smooth and flat area, and people will grow from the ground, stand up and look upwards, waiting for God's judgment for thousands of years.

That would not be possible we travel to Mars, that's why some Sheikhs say that such a travel is Haram.

But once people start to colonise Mars, I guess Muslims clerics and scholars will make up new interpretations, that's what they've been doing for 1400 years.

Already done. In response to a Malaysian astronaut, Muslim clerics here came up with a guidance document:
https://makkah.files.wordpress.com/2...dah_at_iss.pdf

Effectively you have to pray towards Earth. It also covers fasting time (as he went up during Ramadan), which is to be done as if you were at the launch site.

But we’re getting off topic.

Susheel · 13th May 2020, 11:01 PM

PM Modi, at the behestof some of the "experts" in his ministry announceed that the government will look into the use of the waaters od the "holy" Ganga as a cure for COVID 19. Fortunately, the Indian Council of Medical Research shut that option down immediately. However, this hasn't stopped social media from exploding with anecdotes about the benefits of the water and how the ICMR is being anti-national by ignoring tradition.

MohamedTaqi · 14th May 2020, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by gypsyjackson

Same here - fine of up to RM1000 (roughly 250 USD) and/or jail sentence of up to six months for Muslims caught eating during Ramadan. That’s in the Federal Territories; states can have different punishments. Some states are alleged to send out enforcement officers to pretend to be waiters and cooks to catch day time eaters. The more hardline states of Terengganu and Kelantan have a maximum of one year’s jail.

The former state also recently jailed a 17 year old, with 5 other men up to 35, for one month and imposed a fine of RM2400 (roughly 600 USD) for missing Friday prayers.

These offences don’t seem to be enforced right now, or at least I haven’t heard about them. Usually enforcement makes the news, either because it’s relatively rare or pour encourager les autres.

Wow brother, I see we have much in common , the exact same sentence, except that we don't have a fine.

As for Friday prayer, I think it is not enforced because the process would be complicated I guess.

Wish the best ! I hope to visit Malaysia one day, beautiful country .

MohamedTaqi · 14th May 2020, 06:31 AM

Originally Posted by gypsyjackson

Already done. In response to a Malaysian astronaut, Muslim clerics here came up with a guidance document:
https://makkah.files.wordpress.com/2...dah_at_iss.pdf

Effectively you have to pray towards Earth. It also covers fasting time (as he went up during Ramadan), which is to be done as if you were at the launch site.

But we’re getting off topic.

hahaha, then it is not sci-fi anymore. That's how I would imagine prayers on Mars.

The other problem as I said, is the Qur'anic claim that humans will live and die on earth, not somewhere else.

MohamedTaqi · 14th May 2020, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Here's a new twist - a church promoting bleach as a medicine.

It seemed they may have been the ones that convinced that intellectual giant Donald Trump to promote this as a cure.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-...fined/12242150

What will we have next? Now we have a church selling a medicine! Will we have doctors and pharmacies giving spiritual guidance in response?

Hahaha, bleach, funny ?! what's next? soap and shampoo ?

We already have religious claims about curing COVID-19 with Nigella Sativa (black seed).

dann · 16th May 2020, 11:18 PM

You cannot read this post from the "Members only" forum unless you are logged on, but I think it deserves to be here.

Darat · 17th May 2020, 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi

The Qur'an states that wherever a person is, they can just choose a direction for prayer if they don't know the kibla. I never checked if there is a Fatwa for that.

Anyhow, I personally think that whoever founded Islam believed that the earth is flat. But there are always ambiguous Hadeeths and verses in the Qur'an, that can be interpreted in ways that help Muslims deal with different circumstances the founders of this religion didn't even imagine.

It was a common trait when Islam was invented to have maps based on religious information rather than actual geography, that’s why medieval maps had Jerusalem at the centre. So even if the thought was that the earth was a globe god only knows where Mecca would actually be mapped!

arthwollipot · 17th May 2020, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

They've been scamming people for years with that crap. Apparently it cures cancer as well.

To be fair to the churches involved, I agree that drinking enough of it will stop you dying from a disease.

At least 10 years, in fact. The 15-year old Rhys Morgan mentioned in that article started a podcast where he read chapters of Humble's book but it lost momentum petered out after a while.

MohamedTaqi · 18th May 2020, 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

It was a common trait when Islam was invented to have maps based on religious information rather than actual geography, that’s why medieval maps had Jerusalem at the centre. So even if the thought was that the earth was a globe god only knows where Mecca would actually be mapped!

Yes, actually when I read the Qur'an (in Arabic), what I understand from a verse is that Mecca is probably in the center of the earth (or even the Universe).

There is also a Hadeeth that says that the Beit Maamour (which is the equivalent of the Kaaba in the 7th heaven) is perpendicular to Mecca, so that if it fell, it would fall directly where Mecca is located.

And the Beyt Maamour is where angels and deceased prophets perform Tawaf, just like Muslims do on earth.

dann · 18th May 2020, 02:04 AM

Mothers Day gift - get a free test:

Quote:

The incident highlights the ongoing tug-of-war between some religious organizations and public officials as they work to slow the spread of the coronavirus. Some congregations around the country have continued to meet, despite stay-at-home orders -- though some states had exempted religious gatherings.
A person who was Covid-19 positive attended a church service and exposed 180 people, officials say (CNN, May 17, 2020)

The Atheist · 18th May 2020, 11:56 AM

[quote=MohamedTaqi;13089420But Australia did a better job with more than 909,000 reported tests so far. Compared it to 75,000 tests in Morocco.[/QUOTE]

NZ & Australia had three very big advantages - being islands, early intervention, and massive amounts of money to spend.

Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi

But once people start to colonise Mars, I guess Muslims clerics and scholars will make up new interpretations, that's what they've been doing for 1400 years.

Yeah, religion's good at changing minds when it suits.

That said, I don't see Mars as a problem, because it's a red herring - humans will never colonise Mars.

Originally Posted by Susheel

PM Modi, at the behestof some of the "experts" in his ministry announceed that the government will look into the use of the waaters od the "holy" Ganga as a cure for COVID 19. Fortunately, the Indian Council of Medical Research shut that option down immediately. However, this hasn't stopped social media from exploding with anecdotes about the benefits of the water and how the ICMR is being anti-national by ignoring tradition.

And that at a time when it's just starting to really take hold, Well played Modi.

Thor 2 · 18th May 2020, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi

The Qur'an states that wherever a person is, they can just choose a direction for prayer if they don't know the kibla. I never checked if there is a Fatwa for that.

So it is a requirement that you face the kibla to prey, but if you don't know which direction that is you can pray in any direction. Huh?...... Why have a rule if you can overlook it?

I suppose this means prayers have a homing ability. My idea for a holy resort in French Polynesia won't get of the ground then.

Susheel · 19th May 2020, 02:52 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

And that at a time when it's just starting to really take hold, Well played Modi.

It would also be pertinent to remind all that the Ganges also happens to be one of the most polluted rivers in India.

Darat · 19th May 2020, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

So it is a requirement that you face the kibla to prey, but if you don't know which direction that is you can pray in any direction. Huh?...... Why have a rule if you can overlook it?

I suppose this means prayers have a homing ability. My idea for a holy resort in French Polynesia won't get of the ground then.

"Mindfulness" - it's the same idea behind the way Judaism gets around some of its own restrictions (for example an eruv), because you are thinking about it it is OK to "lawyer up" on the rules.

It's the equivilant of being "technically right" on the internet

Darat · 19th May 2020, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by Susheel

It would also be pertinent to remind all that the Ganges also happens to be one of the most polluted rivers in India.

Makes sense then - nothing can live in it!

MohamedTaqi · 19th May 2020, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

So it is a requirement that you face the kibla to prey, but if you don't know which direction that is you can pray in any direction. Huh?...... Why have a rule if you can overlook it?

I suppose this means prayers have a homing ability. My idea for a holy resort in French Polynesia won't get of the ground then.

The Qur'an only allows it in extreme situations when one cannot possibly determine which direction Mecca is located, you can think of it as a permission.

MohamedTaqi · 19th May 2020, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

NZ & Australia had three very big advantages - being islands, early intervention, and massive amounts of money to spend.

Yeah, religion's good at changing minds when it suits.

That said, I don't see Mars as a problem, because it's a red herring - humans will never colonise Mars.

And that at a time when it's just starting to really take hold, Well played Modi.

Without colonizing another planet, I don't see any future for humans here on earth.

dann · 19th May 2020, 11:43 AM

Holy Water Squirt Guns & Trikinis | The Daily Social Distancing Show (May 19, 2020)

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

The Atheist · 19th May 2020, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Susheel

It would also be pertinent to remind all that the Ganges also happens to be one of the most polluted rivers in India.

I'm pretty sure we all knew that!

I cringe every year when I see the pilgrimmage. If there were some way of calculating the numbers, I'd bet a lot more people die from the pilgrimmage than if they'd stayed at home.

Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi

Without colonizing another planet, I don't see any future for humans here on earth.

You and me both, mate.

I see a great deal of irony in the world having just spent $20T to combat a virus while completely ignoring famines, food shortages and the giant threat to all humans caused by climate change.

Faith takes many forms, unfortunately.

8enotto · 19th May 2020, 07:02 PM

Just do the best you can to get through this virus mess.
In a sea of information mostly being the body count worldwide its rather difficult to sort out what really works.

In my area ( relatively lightly populated ) its mostly medical types working the hospitals that are making the news. Not good news for them sadly.

The radio and TV run the " stay home!" ads non stop and now a new ad calling for medical type people to step up, be a hero, and get a job in a gov run hospital.
As other news stories report it the best way to be exposed.

It doesn't all make sense, just do what you can as you do what you have to to keep up the home.

Susheel · 19th May 2020, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi

Without colonizing another planet, I don't see any future for humans here on earth.

So the Mad Hatter's Tea Party Strategy then...

Mader Levap · 21st May 2020, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

That said, I don't see Mars as a problem, because it's a red herring - humans will never colonise Mars.

Never is quite strong word. You better have something to back it up.

You could as well claim people wont ever travel into unknown waters.

Quote:

Archaic humans like Homo erectus “spread like many other mammals in the Old World,” Pääbo told me. “They never came to Madagascar, never to Australia. Neither did Neanderthals. It’s only fully modern humans who start this thing of venturing out on the ocean where you don’t see land. Part of that is technology, of course; you have to have ships to do it. But there is also, I like to think or say, some madness there. You know? How many people must have sailed out and vanished on the Pacific before you found Easter Island? I mean, it’s ridiculous. And why do you do that? Is it for the glory? For immortality? For curiosity? And now we go to Mars. We never stop.”

dann · 21st May 2020, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

Quote:

And now we go to Mars.

We are not going anywhere. I'm with The Atheist on this one.
It's hard to find any place on Earth more unwelcoming than Mars. Maybe inside a volcano.

People have seen too many science fiction movies about the Red Planet as the better alternative to a polluted Earth. It isn't, and I strongly doubt that it ever will be unless the Sun expands so much at one point that it reaches our orbit.

The Atheist · 21st May 2020, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

Never is quite strong word. You better have something to back it up.

Pathetic analogy. People also claimed humans would never fly, despite the existence of birds.

I'll happily start or resurrect a thread on the subject, because it doesn't belong here, although there's an awful lot of faith involved in those who think it's a possibility.

Oystein · 21st May 2020, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by dann

We are not going anywhere. I'm with The Atheist on this one.
It's hard to find any place on Earth more unwelcoming than Mars. Maybe inside a volcano.

People have seen too many science fiction movies about the Red Planet as the better alternative to a polluted Earth. It isn't, and I strongly doubt that it ever will be unless the Sun expands so much at one point that it reaches our orbit.

The energy required to travel to Mars and to harness whatever little resources Mars offers is prohibiting.
It costs hundreds of millions to get 2 or 3 humans to Mars. And then you haven't started the first thing about "colonization".
With a population of nearly billion now, there is no way you could ever evacuate a significant and ethically sufficient proportion of earth's population.
To start a colony and grow it through procreation is another matter, but of little practical value to almost everybody left behind.

So perhaps one day a group of super-rich and super-mad colonists venture out into space and manage to colonize something - similarly to the way that, say, Australia was colonized tens of thousands of years ago, but then most contact was lost for tens of thousands of years.

dann · 22nd May 2020, 12:58 PM

Tanzania's President Insists COVID-19 Was Defeated With Prayer Amid Concerns Scale of Outbreak Being Hidden (Time, May 22, 2020)

dann · 22nd May 2020, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I'll happily start or resurrect a thread on the subject, because it doesn't belong here, although there's an awful lot of faith involved in those who think it's a possibility.

Well, there's always Jesus on Mars, but it doesn't make me want to go there.

The Atheist · 22nd May 2020, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by dann

Tanzania's President Insists COVID-19 Was Defeated With Prayer Amid Concerns Scale of Outbreak Being Hidden (Time, May 22, 2020)

He's a liar and an idiot. Three Members of Parliament have died of it.

Probably the worst leader in sub-Saharan Africa, which is a tough ask.

Thor 2 · 22nd May 2020, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

He's a liar and an idiot. Three Members of Parliament have died of it.

Probably the worst leader in sub-Saharan Africa, which is a tough ask.

Given that a third of the folk are Muslim in Tanzania the Christian prayers wouldn't have helped that lot. We don't tend to hear of Muslims praying for specific favours from God do we? Christians, on the other hand, always seem to be after something.

Pixel42 · 22nd May 2020, 11:20 PM

Now this is a nice gesture.

Ramadan: German church opens doors for Muslim prayers

Quote:

A church in Berlin has opened its doors to Muslim worshippers unable to fit into their mosque under new social distancing rules.

Germany allowed religious services to resume on 4 May but worshippers must maintain a distance of 1.5m (5ft).

As a result the Dar Assalam mosque in the city's Neukölln district could only hold a fraction of its congregation.

But the Martha Lutheran church in Kreuzberg offered to help by hosting Friday prayers at the end of Ramadan.

The Atheist · 24th May 2020, 12:02 AM

Yeah, let's open those churches!

What could go wrong?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cdc-c...b6cc6f9b7344eb

dann · 24th May 2020, 12:21 AM

Also in Germany! This will really help the virus spread:

Quote:

Places of worship in Germany opened their doors again at the start of May. But now a new COVID-19 cluster has been linked to one religious service.
A cluster of 40 coronavirus infections in the city of Frankfurt am Main and the surrounding area have been linked back to a Baptist church service that took place on May 10, reported German news outlet der Tagesspiegel on Saturday.
(...)
Hesse permitted religious ceremonies to resume from May 1 as long as social distancing and other hygiene measures are implemented, meaning the church broke no rules in holding the service.
At least 16 infection cases in the town of Hanau, 25 kilometers (15.5 miles) east of Frankfurt, have been traced back to the May 10 church service, said Hanau authorities.
(...)
As a result of the new infections, the town has called off a fasting and prayer gathering for more than 1,000 participants from several Muslim institutions in the Rhine-Main region. The risk for further infections was "too high," explained Hanau mayor Claus Kaminsky.
Coronavirus cluster traced to German church (Deutsche Welle, May 24, 2020)

But you can't expect Trump and Pence to learn from other countries' experience. They don't even learn from their own.

13th May 2020, 12:05 PM	#241
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 28,282	Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi I don't know why people are so easy to provoke in the middle east and north africa. I'm not sure it's just you, mate - there are plenty of people everywhere that are far too easy to provoke. USA's homicide rate is more than double Morocco's. Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi But, just the fact that we are jailed for not fasting, and that this law is not applied most of the time, is a bliss , compared to other countries. Long may that continue! Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi We still don't know whether this quarantine will end on 20th May , or that the government will extand it to the 20th of June. Well, your country and your neighbour, Algeria, both seem to be managing it pretty well so far. Morocco isn't that far behind Australia in the Covid stats, which has a GDP/capita 15 times higher.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

13th May 2020, 01:42 PM	#242
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,598	Here's a new twist - a church promoting bleach as a medicine. It seemed they may have been the ones that convinced that intellectual giant Donald Trump to promote this as a cure. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-...fined/12242150 Quote: The Australian chapter of an international church selling and promoting bleach as a cure for COVID-19 has been issued infringement notices totalling $151,200. The Genesis II Church of Health and Healing has been claiming chlorine dioxide is a "miracle cure". For years it has sold the industrial bleach as Miracle Mineral Solution (MMS), stating it can cure things like autism, acne, cancer, diabetes and now COVID-19. What will we have next? Now we have a church selling a medicine! Will we have doctors and pharmacies giving spiritual guidance in response?
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

13th May 2020, 01:58 PM	#243
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,598	Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi It is not disturbing if they are just 30 people. There are 3 prayers in which our streets become crowded : - The Friday prayer : every friday ... but it can be done in a mosque. - The two Eids , Adhaa (sacrifice) and Fitr (opening the fast after Ramadan) : once a year each... can only be done outdoors (even if mosques are empty) By the way, this is a funny picture, they missed the Kibla (I think this is in Iraq) hhh : https://www.yahosein.com/vb/filedata/fetch?id=3306769 Yes that is funny. It would seem that prayers can go around corners. I suppose we sort of knew this already, because muslims pray in a horizontal direction towards Mecca, regardless of where they are on the globe.Relating to this a mischievous thought occurred to me some time ago. In French Polynesia there is a point that is precisely opposite Mecca on the globe. I thought this would make a good site for a holy resort for Muslims, as every direction is the same distance to Mecca. Mind you the prayers would have to follow the curvature of the Earth, and turn through 180 degrees on the way.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

13th May 2020, 02:56 PM	#244
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 28,282	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Here's a new twist - a church promoting bleach as a medicine. They've been scamming people for years with that crap. Apparently it cures cancer as well. To be fair to the churches involved, I agree that drinking enough of it will stop you dying from a disease.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

13th May 2020, 04:29 PM	#245
MohamedTaqi Thinker Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: Casablanca, Morocco Posts: 188	Originally Posted by The Atheist I'm not sure it's just you, mate - there are plenty of people everywhere that are far too easy to provoke. USA's homicide rate is more than double Morocco's. The two main reasons I think are : 1) US population is about 9 times (and more diverse) than that of Morocco. 2) In the US , gun ownership is legal , which is not the case in Morocco. Murder in Morocco is quite difficult compared to the US. Originally Posted by The Atheist Well, your country and your neighbour, Algeria, both seem to be managing it pretty well so far. Morocco isn't that far behind Australia in the Covid stats, which has a GDP/capita 15 times higher. But Australia did a better job with more than 909,000 reported tests so far. Compared it to 75,000 tests in Morocco. So, even if the stats are close, they do not reflect the size of the test sample. 6500 cases from 75,000 tests is nothing near 6900 cases from 909000 tests. Anyway, we wish the best for all countries, I really miss coffee shops and bars.
	__________________ Some watch the news, some make them.

13th May 2020, 04:37 PM	#246
MohamedTaqi Thinker Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: Casablanca, Morocco Posts: 188	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Yes that is funny. It would seem that prayers can go around corners. I suppose we sort of knew this already, because muslims pray in a horizontal direction towards Mecca, regardless of where they are on the globe.Relating to this a mischievous thought occurred to me some time ago. In French Polynesia there is a point that is precisely opposite Mecca on the globe. I thought this would make a good site for a holy resort for Muslims, as every direction is the same distance to Mecca. Mind you the prayers would have to follow the curvature of the Earth, and turn through 180 degrees on the way. The Qur'an states that wherever a person is, they can just choose a direction for prayer if they don't know the kibla. I never checked if there is a Fatwa for that. Anyhow, I personally think that whoever founded Islam believed that the earth is flat. But there are always ambiguous Hadeeths and verses in the Qur'an, that can be interpreted in ways that help Muslims deal with different circumstances the founders of this religion didn't even imagine.
	__________________ Some watch the news, some make them.

13th May 2020, 04:48 PM	#247
MohamedTaqi Thinker Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: Casablanca, Morocco Posts: 188	Originally Posted by Thor 2 I suppose we sort of knew this already, because muslims pray in a horizontal direction towards Mecca, regardless of where they are on the globe.Relating to this a mischievous thought occurred to me some time ago. Besides, there are Fatwas that forbid travel to Mars ... since the Kibla would be complicated there (they would have to determine where the location of earth is). And, The Qur'an says that humans will live an die and be resurrected here on earth .. and that the earth will assume a different shape (no mountains or oceans), and people will grow like plants from their graves. While Hadeeth says that the earth will turn into a white smooth and flat area, and people will grow from the ground, stand up and look upwards, waiting for God's judgment for thousands of years. That would not be possible we travel to Mars, that's why some Sheikhs say that such a travel is Haram. But once people start to colonise Mars, I guess Muslims clerics and scholars will make up new interpretations, that's what they've been doing for 1400 years.
	__________________ Some watch the news, some make them.

13th May 2020, 05:43 PM	#248
gypsyjackson Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 1,090	Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi If someone is caught eating here during Ramadan, unless they are pregnant, child, physically or mentally ill. They may spend between 1 - 6 months in jail. Act 222 states : a person commonly known to be Muslim, who violates the fast in a public place during Ramadan, without having one of the justifications allowed in Islam shall be sentenced from one to six months in jail . But in general, these laws are not applied (most of the time), because authorities tend to ignore smokers or non-fasters. However, one would cause himself trouble, eating during the day in Ramadan is a taboo. Human right activist attempts are carried out in order to cancel this act. Same here - fine of up to RM1000 (roughly 250 USD) and/or jail sentence of up to six months for Muslims caught eating during Ramadan. That’s in the Federal Territories; states can have different punishments. Some states are alleged to send out enforcement officers to pretend to be waiters and cooks to catch day time eaters. The more hardline states of Terengganu and Kelantan have a maximum of one year’s jail. The former state also recently jailed a 17 year old, with 5 other men up to 35, for one month and imposed a fine of RM2400 (roughly 600 USD) for missing Friday prayers. These offences don’t seem to be enforced right now, or at least I haven’t heard about them. Usually enforcement makes the news, either because it’s relatively rare or pour encourager les autres.

13th May 2020, 06:04 PM	#249
gypsyjackson Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 1,090	Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi Besides, there are Fatwas that forbid travel to Mars ... since the Kibla would be complicated there (they would have to determine where the location of earth is). And, The Qur'an says that humans will live an die and be resurrected here on earth .. and that the earth will assume a different shape (no mountains or oceans), and people will grow like plants from their graves. While Hadeeth says that the earth will turn into a white smooth and flat area, and people will grow from the ground, stand up and look upwards, waiting for God's judgment for thousands of years. That would not be possible we travel to Mars, that's why some Sheikhs say that such a travel is Haram. But once people start to colonise Mars, I guess Muslims clerics and scholars will make up new interpretations, that's what they've been doing for 1400 years. Already done. In response to a Malaysian astronaut, Muslim clerics here came up with a guidance document: https://makkah.files.wordpress.com/2...dah_at_iss.pdf Effectively you have to pray towards Earth. It also covers fasting time (as he went up during Ramadan), which is to be done as if you were at the launch site. But we’re getting off topic.

13th May 2020, 11:01 PM	#250
Susheel Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Hyderabad, India Posts: 1,756	PM Modi, at the behestof some of the "experts" in his ministry announceed that the government will look into the use of the waaters od the "holy" Ganga as a cure for COVID 19. Fortunately, the Indian Council of Medical Research shut that option down immediately. However, this hasn't stopped social media from exploding with anecdotes about the benefits of the water and how the ICMR is being anti-national by ignoring tradition.
	__________________ I've got to get to a library...fast Robert Langdon

14th May 2020, 06:28 AM	#251
MohamedTaqi Thinker Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: Casablanca, Morocco Posts: 188	Originally Posted by gypsyjackson Same here - fine of up to RM1000 (roughly 250 USD) and/or jail sentence of up to six months for Muslims caught eating during Ramadan. That’s in the Federal Territories; states can have different punishments. Some states are alleged to send out enforcement officers to pretend to be waiters and cooks to catch day time eaters. The more hardline states of Terengganu and Kelantan have a maximum of one year’s jail. The former state also recently jailed a 17 year old, with 5 other men up to 35, for one month and imposed a fine of RM2400 (roughly 600 USD) for missing Friday prayers. These offences don’t seem to be enforced right now, or at least I haven’t heard about them. Usually enforcement makes the news, either because it’s relatively rare or pour encourager les autres. Wow brother, I see we have much in common , the exact same sentence, except that we don't have a fine. As for Friday prayer, I think it is not enforced because the process would be complicated I guess. Wish the best ! I hope to visit Malaysia one day, beautiful country .
	__________________ Some watch the news, some make them.

14th May 2020, 06:31 AM	#252
MohamedTaqi Thinker Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: Casablanca, Morocco Posts: 188	Originally Posted by gypsyjackson Already done. In response to a Malaysian astronaut, Muslim clerics here came up with a guidance document: https://makkah.files.wordpress.com/2...dah_at_iss.pdf Effectively you have to pray towards Earth. It also covers fasting time (as he went up during Ramadan), which is to be done as if you were at the launch site. But we’re getting off topic. hahaha, then it is not sci-fi anymore. That's how I would imagine prayers on Mars. The other problem as I said, is the Qur'anic claim that humans will live and die on earth, not somewhere else.
	__________________ Some watch the news, some make them.

14th May 2020, 06:40 AM	#253
MohamedTaqi Thinker Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: Casablanca, Morocco Posts: 188	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Here's a new twist - a church promoting bleach as a medicine. It seemed they may have been the ones that convinced that intellectual giant Donald Trump to promote this as a cure. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-...fined/12242150 What will we have next? Now we have a church selling a medicine! Will we have doctors and pharmacies giving spiritual guidance in response? Hahaha, bleach, funny ?! what's next? soap and shampoo ? We already have religious claims about curing COVID-19 with Nigella Sativa (black seed).
	__________________ Some watch the news, some make them.

16th May 2020, 11:18 PM	#254
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,566	You cannot read this post from the "Members only" forum unless you are logged on, but I think it deserves to be here.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

17th May 2020, 02:04 AM	#255
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 96,954	Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi The Qur'an states that wherever a person is, they can just choose a direction for prayer if they don't know the kibla. I never checked if there is a Fatwa for that. Anyhow, I personally think that whoever founded Islam believed that the earth is flat. But there are always ambiguous Hadeeths and verses in the Qur'an, that can be interpreted in ways that help Muslims deal with different circumstances the founders of this religion didn't even imagine. It was a common trait when Islam was invented to have maps based on religious information rather than actual geography, that’s why medieval maps had Jerusalem at the centre. So even if the thought was that the earth was a globe god only knows where Mecca would actually be mapped!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

17th May 2020, 10:48 PM	#256
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 70,272	Originally Posted by The Atheist They've been scamming people for years with that crap. Apparently it cures cancer as well. To be fair to the churches involved, I agree that drinking enough of it will stop you dying from a disease. At least 10 years, in fact. The 15-year old Rhys Morgan mentioned in that article started a podcast where he read chapters of Humble's book but it lost momentum petered out after a while.
	__________________ Please scream inside your heart.

18th May 2020, 12:17 AM	#257
MohamedTaqi Thinker Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: Casablanca, Morocco Posts: 188	Originally Posted by Darat It was a common trait when Islam was invented to have maps based on religious information rather than actual geography, that’s why medieval maps had Jerusalem at the centre. So even if the thought was that the earth was a globe god only knows where Mecca would actually be mapped! Yes, actually when I read the Qur'an (in Arabic), what I understand from a verse is that Mecca is probably in the center of the earth (or even the Universe). There is also a Hadeeth that says that the Beit Maamour (which is the equivalent of the Kaaba in the 7th heaven) is perpendicular to Mecca, so that if it fell, it would fall directly where Mecca is located. And the Beyt Maamour is where angels and deceased prophets perform Tawaf, just like Muslims do on earth.
	__________________ Some watch the news, some make them.

18th May 2020, 02:04 AM	#258
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,566	Mothers Day gift - get a free test: Quote: The incident highlights the ongoing tug-of-war between some religious organizations and public officials as they work to slow the spread of the coronavirus. Some congregations around the country have continued to meet, despite stay-at-home orders -- though some states had exempted religious gatherings. A person who was Covid-19 positive attended a church service and exposed 180 people, officials say (CNN, May 17, 2020)
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

18th May 2020, 11:56 AM	#259
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 28,282	[quote=MohamedTaqi;13089420But Australia did a better job with more than 909,000 reported tests so far. Compared it to 75,000 tests in Morocco.[/QUOTE] NZ & Australia had three very big advantages - being islands, early intervention, and massive amounts of money to spend. Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi But once people start to colonise Mars, I guess Muslims clerics and scholars will make up new interpretations, that's what they've been doing for 1400 years. Yeah, religion's good at changing minds when it suits. That said, I don't see Mars as a problem, because it's a red herring - humans will never colonise Mars. Originally Posted by Susheel PM Modi, at the behestof some of the "experts" in his ministry announceed that the government will look into the use of the waaters od the "holy" Ganga as a cure for COVID 19. Fortunately, the Indian Council of Medical Research shut that option down immediately. However, this hasn't stopped social media from exploding with anecdotes about the benefits of the water and how the ICMR is being anti-national by ignoring tradition. And that at a time when it's just starting to really take hold, Well played Modi.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

18th May 2020, 01:32 PM	#260
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,598	Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi The Qur'an states that wherever a person is, they can just choose a direction for prayer if they don't know the kibla. I never checked if there is a Fatwa for that. So it is a requirement that you face the kibla to prey, but if you don't know which direction that is you can pray in any direction. Huh?...... Why have a rule if you can overlook it? I suppose this means prayers have a homing ability. My idea for a holy resort in French Polynesia won't get of the ground then.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

19th May 2020, 02:52 AM	#261
Susheel Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Hyderabad, India Posts: 1,756	Originally Posted by The Atheist And that at a time when it's just starting to really take hold, Well played Modi. It would also be pertinent to remind all that the Ganges also happens to be one of the most polluted rivers in India.
	__________________ I've got to get to a library...fast Robert Langdon

19th May 2020, 04:34 AM	#262
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 96,954	Originally Posted by Thor 2 So it is a requirement that you face the kibla to prey, but if you don't know which direction that is you can pray in any direction. Huh?...... Why have a rule if you can overlook it? I suppose this means prayers have a homing ability. My idea for a holy resort in French Polynesia won't get of the ground then. "Mindfulness" - it's the same idea behind the way Judaism gets around some of its own restrictions (for example an eruv), because you are thinking about it it is OK to "lawyer up" on the rules. It's the equivilant of being "technically right" on the internet
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

19th May 2020, 04:34 AM	#263
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 96,954	Originally Posted by Susheel It would also be pertinent to remind all that the Ganges also happens to be one of the most polluted rivers in India. Makes sense then - nothing can live in it!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

19th May 2020, 08:05 AM	#264
MohamedTaqi Thinker Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: Casablanca, Morocco Posts: 188	Originally Posted by Thor 2 So it is a requirement that you face the kibla to prey, but if you don't know which direction that is you can pray in any direction. Huh?...... Why have a rule if you can overlook it? I suppose this means prayers have a homing ability. My idea for a holy resort in French Polynesia won't get of the ground then. The Qur'an only allows it in extreme situations when one cannot possibly determine which direction Mecca is located, you can think of it as a permission.
	__________________ Some watch the news, some make them.

19th May 2020, 08:14 AM	#265
MohamedTaqi Thinker Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: Casablanca, Morocco Posts: 188	Originally Posted by The Atheist NZ & Australia had three very big advantages - being islands, early intervention, and massive amounts of money to spend. Yeah, religion's good at changing minds when it suits. That said, I don't see Mars as a problem, because it's a red herring - humans will never colonise Mars. And that at a time when it's just starting to really take hold, Well played Modi. Without colonizing another planet, I don't see any future for humans here on earth.
	__________________ Some watch the news, some make them.

19th May 2020, 05:42 PM	#267
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 28,282	Originally Posted by Susheel It would also be pertinent to remind all that the Ganges also happens to be one of the most polluted rivers in India. I'm pretty sure we all knew that! I cringe every year when I see the pilgrimmage. If there were some way of calculating the numbers, I'd bet a lot more people die from the pilgrimmage than if they'd stayed at home. Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi Without colonizing another planet, I don't see any future for humans here on earth. You and me both, mate. I see a great deal of irony in the world having just spent $20T to combat a virus while completely ignoring famines, food shortages and the giant threat to all humans caused by climate change. Faith takes many forms, unfortunately.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

19th May 2020, 07:02 PM	#268
8enotto Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Mexico Posts: 1,865	Just do the best you can to get through this virus mess. In a sea of information mostly being the body count worldwide its rather difficult to sort out what really works. In my area ( relatively lightly populated ) its mostly medical types working the hospitals that are making the news. Not good news for them sadly. The radio and TV run the " stay home!" ads non stop and now a new ad calling for medical type people to step up, be a hero, and get a job in a gov run hospital. As other news stories report it the best way to be exposed. It doesn't all make sense, just do what you can as you do what you have to to keep up the home.

19th May 2020, 09:55 PM	#269
Susheel Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Hyderabad, India Posts: 1,756	Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi Without colonizing another planet, I don't see any future for humans here on earth. So the Mad Hatter's Tea Party Strategy then...
	__________________ I've got to get to a library...fast Robert Langdon

21st May 2020, 06:58 AM	#270
Mader Levap Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 1,576	Originally Posted by The Atheist That said, I don't see Mars as a problem, because it's a red herring - humans will never colonise Mars. Never is quite strong word. You better have something to back it up. You could as well claim people wont ever travel into unknown waters. Quote: Archaic humans like Homo erectus “spread like many other mammals in the Old World,” Pääbo told me. “They never came to Madagascar, never to Australia. Neither did Neanderthals. It’s only fully modern humans who start this thing of venturing out on the ocean where you don’t see land. Part of that is technology, of course; you have to have ships to do it. But there is also, I like to think or say, some madness there. You know? How many people must have sailed out and vanished on the Pacific before you found Easter Island? I mean, it’s ridiculous. And why do you do that? Is it for the glory? For immortality? For curiosity? And now we go to Mars. We never stop.”
	__________________ Sanity is overrated. / Voting for Republicans is morally equivalent to voting for Nazis in early 30's.

21st May 2020, 09:38 AM	#271
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,566	Originally Posted by Mader Levap Quote: And now we go to Mars. We are not going anywhere. I'm with The Atheist on this one. It's hard to find any place on Earth more unwelcoming than Mars. Maybe inside a volcano. People have seen too many science fiction movies about the Red Planet as the better alternative to a polluted Earth. It isn't, and I strongly doubt that it ever will be unless the Sun expands so much at one point that it reaches our orbit.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

21st May 2020, 12:47 PM	#272
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 28,282	Originally Posted by Mader Levap Never is quite strong word. You better have something to back it up. Pathetic analogy. People also claimed humans would never fly, despite the existence of birds. I'll happily start or resurrect a thread on the subject, because it doesn't belong here, although there's an awful lot of faith involved in those who think it's a possibility.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

21st May 2020, 01:45 PM	#273
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 16,999	Originally Posted by dann We are not going anywhere. I'm with The Atheist on this one. It's hard to find any place on Earth more unwelcoming than Mars. Maybe inside a volcano. People have seen too many science fiction movies about the Red Planet as the better alternative to a polluted Earth. It isn't, and I strongly doubt that it ever will be unless the Sun expands so much at one point that it reaches our orbit. The energy required to travel to Mars and to harness whatever little resources Mars offers is prohibiting. It costs hundreds of millions to get 2 or 3 humans to Mars. And then you haven't started the first thing about "colonization". With a population of nearly billion now, there is no way you could ever evacuate a significant and ethically sufficient proportion of earth's population. To start a colony and grow it through procreation is another matter, but of little practical value to almost everybody left behind. So perhaps one day a group of super-rich and super-mad colonists venture out into space and manage to colonize something - similarly to the way that, say, Australia was colonized tens of thousands of years ago, but then most contact was lost for tens of thousands of years.
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

22nd May 2020, 12:58 PM	#274
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,566	Tanzania's President Insists COVID-19 Was Defeated With Prayer Amid Concerns Scale of Outbreak Being Hidden (Time, May 22, 2020)
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

22nd May 2020, 01:05 PM	#275
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,566	Originally Posted by The Atheist I'll happily start or resurrect a thread on the subject, because it doesn't belong here, although there's an awful lot of faith involved in those who think it's a possibility. Well, there's always Jesus on Mars, but it doesn't make me want to go there.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

22nd May 2020, 03:25 PM	#276
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 28,282	Originally Posted by dann Tanzania's President Insists COVID-19 Was Defeated With Prayer Amid Concerns Scale of Outbreak Being Hidden (Time, May 22, 2020) He's a liar and an idiot. Three Members of Parliament have died of it. Probably the worst leader in sub-Saharan Africa, which is a tough ask.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.