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7th November 2012, 10:52 AM | #3961 |
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7th November 2012, 10:53 AM | #3962 |
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7th November 2012, 11:39 AM | #3963 |
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Carbon Dating/Smoking Gun?
Dinwar,
- I don't have time. --- Jabba |
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7th November 2012, 11:48 AM | #3964 |
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For crying out lout.....How long would it take to post a link to a website? How long would it take to type out why I should care about this new topic?
Here, I'll make it simple for you: "Dinwar, You should care about the "Sudarium of Oviedo" because it relates to the Shroud of Turin in the folowing ways: 1) 2) 3) --Jabba." Fill in 1, 2, and 3. It can even be in your own words. Until you do so, I've got no reason to care--all you've given me is three words, and your credibility is completley shot so I'm not going to waste my time doing the research any competant person would present when presenting new information. I won't do your research for you, in other words. |
7th November 2012, 12:05 PM | #3965 |
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7th November 2012, 01:01 PM | #3966 |
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Thread ended on page one. But nobody noticed. So we are far beyond ridiculous.
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7th November 2012, 01:27 PM | #3967 |
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Carbon Dating/Smoking Gun?
Dinwar,
- The Sudarium appears to be the face cloth from Jesus' tomb. It's just a cloth full of old blood that appears to match perfectly with the Shroud. It is documented back to the 6th or 7th century. Now will you track it down on Google? Google has all sorts of info. - Keep in mind that I'm supposed to be working on the links that Dave brought up -- plus, I'm supposed to be working on chores in the afternoon in general... --- Jabba |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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7th November 2012, 02:22 PM | #3968 |
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Well, no, you're supposed to be finding a way to scientifically disprove the C14 dating. But you've found yourself unable to do this, and so have dishonestly tried to steer the conversation in a completely different and unrelated direction in the hopes that nobody will notice.
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7th November 2012, 02:28 PM | #3969 |
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Carbon Dating/Smoking Guns?
Squeegee,
- The links that Dave brought up have to do with the scourge marks. - I'm trying to use the scourge marks to show that no one could forge the Shroud in the 14th century -- but, Dave's links seem to discredit the scourge marks. --- Jabba |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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7th November 2012, 02:31 PM | #3970 |
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Not to mention that in the time it took to write that post, Jabba could have linked to the site he thought most informative and accurate. Unless, of course, he doesn't really know anything about it beyond the shrill headlines he gets from shroudie friends and websites.
For the record, I did Google it and went to the first wiki entry (1st or 2nd result; can't remember). It's a blatantly dishonest presentation in that it flatly states that the C14 tests have been indisputably proven to have been taken from a patch not matching the rest of the shroud. So there you go, Jabba. I took your bait and looked up your topic. It's crap. It's lies. It isn't true. It doesn't match the rest of the shroud, and if it did it would prove nothing. So that complaint is taken care of. Now do your bit and answer the responses. Why would there be two cloths with a face image? Better yet, get back to the C14 data. |
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7th November 2012, 02:33 PM | #3971 |
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1. Those links were brought up ages ago, and you ignored them.
2. If you had been doing real research prior to coming to JREF you would have found those links already and evaluated them. 3. They don't "seem" to discredit the scourge marks, they "do" discredit the scourge marks. 4. Even if they didn't, it would prove nothing about the date. Nothing. 5. Focus on the C14. |
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7th November 2012, 02:43 PM | #3972 |
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I've already shown that to be a fool's errand. Flagulation was a common practice in the Middle Ages, both as punishment and as part of various religious observances. It'd have been the easiest thing in the world to whip a guy with any tools you wanted, in any fashion you wanted--some monk somewhere would think he deserved it and would volunteer. Seriously, there were books describing (in part) how to do this properly because people were doing it too much.
Originally Posted by Garrette
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7th November 2012, 02:48 PM | #3973 |
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Sadly, I doubt that. I strongly suspect that even had Jabba found and thoroughly read all the relevant discussions and evidence surrounding the SoT that he would still have found a way to disregard the proof against his claims. Sort of like the STURP people. It is hard to believe that they don't know all the counterarguments; they simply choose to ignore them or misrepresent them so that they can maintain their belief.
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7th November 2012, 03:43 PM | #3974 |
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If Jabba bothered trying to read what we write and udnerstand it, he would have long stopped scourging the shroud of a dead horse.
But he isn't. No matter what we will say , he will be utterly deaf to what we say and will make up reason to not accept it, even if it means pure libel (see McCrone). he made his mind, and then closed it so utterly shut that nothing short of god appearing to him and telling him the shroud is a fake (and even then I am not sure). |
7th November 2012, 04:08 PM | #3975 |
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I went to your linked site and lo and behold, the shrouds are wrapped and bound about the cadaver.
That they show a photo of the TS proves what, Jabba? It's the world's most famous shroud, after all. About the posts you refuse to read, here they are again: The hiliting is mine. I hope that helps. |
7th November 2012, 04:19 PM | #3976 |
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7th November 2012, 05:05 PM | #3977 |
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I'm sorry, but I must have missed it...
Would you please explain how a series of parallel marks that do not cross each other, that do not resemble the marks of any actual flogging (be careful looking THAT up on Google), and that do not consist of blood; marks that are laid at non-anatomical angles upon a non-anatomical physically inaccurate representation of a stylized human figure; marks that, further, appear on a cloth that WAS NOT wrapped around the anatomically impossible representation of a stylized human being in question; are, in any way, a 'smoking gun" AGAINST the 14C dates? |
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7th November 2012, 05:54 PM | #3978 |
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7th November 2012, 05:58 PM | #3979 |
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LOL
And what, exactly, does this website say about the shroud of Turin itself? "Shroud of TurinTalk about cherry-picking and dishonesty... |
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8th November 2012, 12:48 AM | #3981 |
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Just out of interest - when were these scourge marks first noticed? Were they pointed out when the shroud was first seen around 1400AD? Or is it only much more recently that someone notched these marks and said they were made by Roman soldiers flogging Jesus? Who was it that first claimed these were scourge marks, and when did that claim first surface? |
8th November 2012, 03:46 AM | #3982 |
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Evidence for these claims? Or are you just wasting our time again?
No. The supposed blood is irrelevant to the radiocarbon dating. Remember? The thing you claimed you were addressing. There's a pitiful lack of such supporting the authenticity of the shroud. Exactly. |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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8th November 2012, 04:43 AM | #3983 |
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Carbon Dating/Smoking Gun?
- Note that by giving in and responding to Dinwar's post, I stirred up a hornet's nest -- giving me numerous more 'stings' to deal with, when I was already overwhelmed by numerous new stings from Dave's #3913.
- So, once again, I'll try to resist the temptation to defend my whole perimeter -- and focus, instead, upon one 'small' front at a time. Back to 3913... --- Jabba |
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8th November 2012, 05:13 AM | #3984 |
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Carbon Dating/Smoking Gun?
Quote:
- It sure seems to me that such makes sense – remember using a rolled up towel as a whip in the locker room? It was only the very end that you wanted to pop your "friend" with. Not only was that probably the technique typically used with the flagrum by the Roman soldiers, but the ends of their whips were heavier than the rest of the cord. In addition, the portion of the whip cord between the little balls was possibly (probably?) thinner than the rest of the cord, and therefore more likely to cut. --- Jabba |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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8th November 2012, 05:26 AM | #3985 |
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8th November 2012, 07:04 AM | #3986 |
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*sigh*
So now you are claiming that your a Roman flagellator would have wielded a scourge the way a schoolboy flicks a towel? Have you thought about this at all? Try it: roll three rat-tails; dip the ends in water; pop them against a wall, being sure that only the tips touch the wall. Compare the marks made on the wall to the "scourge marks" on the shroud. Or, you could research how flails have been wielded since ancient Egypt. Or, you could acquire an actual flail. and try to wield it in the flicking manner you need to have happened for your claim to make any sense. Or, you could simply explain how marks that were not made by a flail used in a way that flails are not; marks appearing on the non-anatomical stylyized representation of a figure; marks not comprised of, nor containing blood; marks appearing on a cloth in a way that obviates any possibility that the representation was transferred to the cloth when it was wrapped around the non-anatomical stylized figure in question... ...have any kind of probative value at ALL against the 14C dates arrived at independently by three labs. Because you STILL have not dealt with the dates... |
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8th November 2012, 07:24 AM | #3987 |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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8th November 2012, 07:59 AM | #3988 |
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Originally Posted by Jabba
Quote:
Quote:
None of this negates the C14 dating, as all of this technology was readily available to everyone since long before Rome. I can buy cat-o'-nines quite easily today, and whips were FAR more common in the Middle Ages. Finding someone who'd been whipped to lay on the cloth, or to model for the cloth, would have been a trivial task--or the monk could have done it to himself to begin with (enough of them did it that it wouldn't have appeared out of place). |
8th November 2012, 08:08 AM | #3989 |
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Oh, Jabba.
What do scourge marks or possible bloodstains even matter if the cloth is dated to the 14th century? But now that we're here, l have a question: Why would anyone imagine there could ever be any difficulty whatsoever in finding someone to flog in any given century? Anyway, while Jabba considers the implications of scourging through the ages, allow me to remind our gentle readers that 2012 is the 500th anniversary of the Isenheim Altarpiece http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isenheim_Altarpiece This remarkable work includes my favourite depiction of a musician, an awesome Resurrection and possibly the most hideous cruxifixion ever painted. Grunewald's depiction of the scourge marks merits special attention in the context of the discussion. |
8th November 2012, 08:49 AM | #3990 |
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Carbon Dating/Smoking Gun?
Quote:
- To be honest, I don't follow his logic. Couldn't the victim be suspended from a horizontal bar (without the vertical "bar" in the middle) in much the same way as he was suspended from the cross, and scourged from both front and back -- and, exhibit the same marks? Superficially at least, I can't see why not. --- Jabba |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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8th November 2012, 10:14 AM | #3991 |
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Originally Posted by Jabba
Here's the thing: Romans had systematic, institutionalized and formalized ways of beating people. They are well-documented, and were part of the normal legal process. It's the equivalent of our cross-examination in terms of how surprised any Roman was when they were used. Several major Roman senators even argued that without using specific techniques the testamony of certain groups should be declared inadmissible. We know what those marks look like. It's easy enough to determine how they'd look if the limbs were moved. And they DO NOT look like the shroud. If you look up Roman whipping techniques, you'll see why quite quickly. Also, Roman floggings tended to be powerful enough to knock people over. They actually used that systematically to dislocate arms and legs (while suspending you from said limbs--Romans weren't nice people). I'd love to see someone try to do that with just the tip of the falls on a cat. |
9th November 2012, 12:44 AM | #3992 |
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^
I did a quick search on flogging techniques but had to desist rather early on- the photos of the Philippine penitents were too much for me. This reminds me, however, why I find the mentality of the pro-authenticity defenders to be like that of CT believers. They both seem to rely on rumour and half truths and pseudo-science which never stand up to examination. |
9th November 2012, 05:49 AM | #3993 |
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9th November 2012, 07:17 AM | #3994 |
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Carbon Dating/Smoking Gun?
Pakeha,
- In regard to your last question: I don’t know. We humans are still pretty barbaric -- and surely, we were more barbaric in the 14th century than we are now. That isn’t my issue. - However, the probability of there being a person of the 14th century (or, a group of such persons) 1) willing to do the necessary flogging, 2) able to place the flogging and other wounds so accurately (including a couple of non-traditional -- but probably correct -- details), and 3) somehow able to get the image transferred, and transferred so effectively to the Shroud, should be damned small. - In other words, if we are stuck with an imprint (which we would be if I'm right about the serum clot retraction rings), rather than a painting, the probability is quite large that the Shroud is that of Jesus, and the 14th century dating is just wrong. --- Jabba |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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9th November 2012, 07:24 AM | #3995 |
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9th November 2012, 07:30 AM | #3996 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
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"1) willing to do the necessary flogging,"
That is the msot STUPID statement I read in a few days. People FLOG themselves in spain and philippine all the time each easter. People were FLOGGING themselves to "repent" their sin during the whole middle age. "2) able to place the flogging and other wounds so accurately (including a couple of non-traditional -- but probably correct -- details), " That is the most pretty stupid things I read since... 10 seconds. IF you use the same type of whip there is no reason to have JC flogging look differentely than any other flogging. "3) somehow able to get the image transferred, " Yeah and transffered without lateral deformation of the image as one would expect. But i don't expect you to pick that one up. Soooooo how about that 14C dating ? "- In other words, if we are stuck with an imprint (which we would be if I'm right about the serum clot retraction rings), rather than a painting, the probability is quite large that the Shroud is that of Jesus, and the 14th century dating is just wrong." Non Sequitur. Look that one up. |
9th November 2012, 07:46 AM | #3997 |
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Carbon Dating/Smoking Gun?
Dinwar,
- Can you point me to a specific link showing the whipping techniques? So far, the only conflict I've found between standard Roman techniques and what we see on the Shroud is that (according to what I read), the arms and forearms were usually spared from the flogging due to the way the victim was suspended during the flogging. - Thanks. --- Jabba |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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9th November 2012, 07:58 AM | #3998 |
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I simply cannot believe you take 1) seriously.
2) and 3) have been dealt with already. Or have you forgotten the posts I've drawn your attention to? We already know the serum clot retraction rings are nothing more than figments of imagination. Have you really forgotten the discussion at the Atheists' Forum? |
9th November 2012, 08:01 AM | #3999 |
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Carbon Dating/Smoking Gun?
Resume,
- Obviously, this will only meet with derision, but I can't resist pointing it out anyway -- I'm actually a certified Statistician, and LOVE probability. Take a look at http://messiahornot.com/ACT2Scene1.php, http://messiahornot.com/Act2Scene2.php and http://messiahornot.com/Virtually1.php -- if you dare. --- Jabba |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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9th November 2012, 08:12 AM | #4000 |
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