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Old 7th November 2012, 10:52 AM   #3961
Garrette
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dinwar,
- Thanks for asking that question. Look up the "Sudarium of Oviedo."
--- Jabba
Really? So there were two pieces of cloth and they both have an image? Oh my.
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Old 7th November 2012, 10:53 AM   #3962
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dinwar,
- Thanks for asking that question. Look up the "Sudarium of Oviedo."
--- Jabba
Why? And why can't you post the relevant information here?
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Old 7th November 2012, 11:39 AM   #3963
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Carbon Dating/Smoking Gun?

Dinwar,
- I don't have time.
--- Jabba
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Old 7th November 2012, 11:48 AM   #3964
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dinwar,
- I don't have time.
--- Jabba
For crying out lout.....How long would it take to post a link to a website? How long would it take to type out why I should care about this new topic?

Here, I'll make it simple for you:

"Dinwar,

You should care about the "Sudarium of Oviedo" because it relates to the Shroud of Turin in the folowing ways:

1)
2)
3)

--Jabba."

Fill in 1, 2, and 3. It can even be in your own words. Until you do so, I've got no reason to care--all you've given me is three words, and your credibility is completley shot so I'm not going to waste my time doing the research any competant person would present when presenting new information. I won't do your research for you, in other words.
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Old 7th November 2012, 12:05 PM   #3965
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dinwar,
- I don't have time.
--- Jabba
We finally have what should be a thread-ender here. Others will argue that we've had (what should have been) thread-enders much earlier. I've been frustrated, too. But this is just ridiculous.

Ward
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Old 7th November 2012, 01:01 PM   #3966
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Thread ended on page one. But nobody noticed. So we are far beyond ridiculous.
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Old 7th November 2012, 01:27 PM   #3967
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Carbon Dating/Smoking Gun?

Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
For crying out lout.....How long would it take to post a link to a website? How long would it take to type out why I should care about this new topic?

Here, I'll make it simple for you:

"Dinwar,

You should care about the "Sudarium of Oviedo" because it relates to the Shroud of Turin in the folowing ways:

1)
2)
3)

--Jabba."

Fill in 1, 2, and 3. It can even be in your own words. Until you do so, I've got no reason to care--all you've given me is three words, and your credibility is completley shot so I'm not going to waste my time doing the research any competant person would present when presenting new information. I won't do your research for you, in other words.
Dinwar,
- The Sudarium appears to be the face cloth from Jesus' tomb. It's just a cloth full of old blood that appears to match perfectly with the Shroud. It is documented back to the 6th or 7th century. Now will you track it down on Google? Google has all sorts of info.
- Keep in mind that I'm supposed to be working on the links that Dave brought up -- plus, I'm supposed to be working on chores in the afternoon in general...

--- Jabba
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Old 7th November 2012, 02:22 PM   #3968
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Keep in mind that I'm supposed to be working on the links that Dave brought up --
Well, no, you're supposed to be finding a way to scientifically disprove the C14 dating. But you've found yourself unable to do this, and so have dishonestly tried to steer the conversation in a completely different and unrelated direction in the hopes that nobody will notice.
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Old 7th November 2012, 02:28 PM   #3969
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Carbon Dating/Smoking Guns?

Squeegee,
- The links that Dave brought up have to do with the scourge marks.
- I'm trying to use the scourge marks to show that no one could forge the Shroud in the 14th century -- but, Dave's links seem to discredit the scourge marks.
--- Jabba
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Old 7th November 2012, 02:31 PM   #3970
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Well, no, you're supposed to be finding a way to scientifically disprove the C14 dating. But you've found yourself unable to do this, and so have dishonestly tried to steer the conversation in a completely different and unrelated direction in the hopes that nobody will notice.
Not to mention that in the time it took to write that post, Jabba could have linked to the site he thought most informative and accurate. Unless, of course, he doesn't really know anything about it beyond the shrill headlines he gets from shroudie friends and websites.

For the record, I did Google it and went to the first wiki entry (1st or 2nd result; can't remember). It's a blatantly dishonest presentation in that it flatly states that the C14 tests have been indisputably proven to have been taken from a patch not matching the rest of the shroud.

So there you go, Jabba. I took your bait and looked up your topic. It's crap. It's lies. It isn't true. It doesn't match the rest of the shroud, and if it did it would prove nothing.

So that complaint is taken care of. Now do your bit and answer the responses.

Why would there be two cloths with a face image?

Better yet, get back to the C14 data.
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Old 7th November 2012, 02:33 PM   #3971
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Squeegee,
- The links that Dave brought up have to do with the scourge marks.
- I'm trying to use the scourge marks to show that no one could forge the Shroud in the 14th century -- but, Dave's links seem to discredit the scourge marks.
--- Jabba
1. Those links were brought up ages ago, and you ignored them.

2. If you had been doing real research prior to coming to JREF you would have found those links already and evaluated them.

3. They don't "seem" to discredit the scourge marks, they "do" discredit the scourge marks.

4. Even if they didn't, it would prove nothing about the date. Nothing.

5. Focus on the C14.
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Old 7th November 2012, 02:43 PM   #3972
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I'm trying to use the scourge marks to show that no one could forge the Shroud in the 14th century -- but, Dave's links seem to discredit the scourge marks.
I've already shown that to be a fool's errand. Flagulation was a common practice in the Middle Ages, both as punishment and as part of various religious observances. It'd have been the easiest thing in the world to whip a guy with any tools you wanted, in any fashion you wanted--some monk somewhere would think he deserved it and would volunteer. Seriously, there were books describing (in part) how to do this properly because people were doing it too much.

Originally Posted by Garrette
2. If you had been doing real research prior to coming to JREF you would have found those links already and evaluated them.
If he'd bothered with this this entire converstaion wouldn't have happened.
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Old 7th November 2012, 02:48 PM   #3973
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
If he'd bothered with this this entire converstaion wouldn't have happened.
Sadly, I doubt that. I strongly suspect that even had Jabba found and thoroughly read all the relevant discussions and evidence surrounding the SoT that he would still have found a way to disregard the proof against his claims. Sort of like the STURP people. It is hard to believe that they don't know all the counterarguments; they simply choose to ignore them or misrepresent them so that they can maintain their belief.
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Old 7th November 2012, 03:43 PM   #3974
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post

If he'd bothered with this this entire converstaion wouldn't have happened.
If Jabba bothered trying to read what we write and udnerstand it, he would have long stopped scourging the shroud of a dead horse.

But he isn't. No matter what we will say , he will be utterly deaf to what we say and will make up reason to not accept it, even if it means pure libel (see McCrone).

he made his mind, and then closed it so utterly shut that nothing short of god appearing to him and telling him the shroud is a fake (and even then I am not sure).
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Old 7th November 2012, 04:08 PM   #3975
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Pakeha,

- No. You'll have to point those out. You and I tend to "see" things differently.
- I think that "wrapped" doesn't mean that the shroud itself encircled the body in a horizontal fashion. Though, there probably were a couple of "belts" that encircled the Shroud in a horizontal fashion (this could also explain the mention, in the Bible, of linen CLOTHS (plural).

- Looking up the "Shroud of Grushetskaya," it sure doesn't look like it was made to encircle her body horizontally.
- At http://burialpapoose.com/natural-gre...achrichim.html, you can find a picture of Grushetskaya’s shroud, and note that on that same professional webpage showing other shrouds, and other types of shrouds, they show the Shroud of Turin. They seem to accept that the TS is a legitimate kind of shroud – that wasn’t used horizontally.

- That’s all the time I have for now.

--- Jabba
I went to your linked site and lo and behold, the shrouds are wrapped and bound about the cadaver.
That they show a photo of the TS proves what, Jabba?
It's the world's most famous shroud, after all.


About the posts you refuse to read, here they are again:
Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Indeed, IanS, that was the burden of the OP.



I've seen a computer simulation of that- if you like I'll hunt it out.



Kudos on your dedication to the truth!

Right.
So Jabba has gone larking after blood exudates and is completely ignoring the fact he's done this all before, using the same old same old sources.
Is it really possible Jabba has forgotten how the discussion went at the Atheists' Forum?

ETA
Found!
The simulation of those distortions so ably confirmed by Aepervius's experiment
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7&postcount=33
Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Ha, character texture mapping. Indeed it was indeed that. And now that I think about it, you can probably find a lot more example on 3DS directories . The fact is that if the cloth is allowed to fall down naturally it will cover a bit of the jaw and the top and bottom of the head. You should not see a *painting* of the persons as if a photograph was taken, you should see something which is deformed all over the place. Like a mercator or similar projection. shape/angle/distance/proportion choose 1 or 2 you want to keep the other will be deformed. You cannot have a mathematical projection onto a lower degree surface and conserve everything.

I seriously doubt we will see Jabba picking that up. He will still be playing law and order or something.
The hiliting is mine.
I hope that helps.
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Old 7th November 2012, 04:19 PM   #3976
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- The links that Dave brought up have to do with the scourge marks.
And the scourge marks have nothing to do with the C14 dating. What you need is some peer-reviewed science.
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Old 7th November 2012, 05:05 PM   #3977
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dinwar,
- The Sudarium appears to be the face cloth from Jesus' tomb. It's just a cloth full of old blood that appears to match perfectly with the Shroud. It is documented back to the 6th or 7th century. Now will you track it down on Google? Google has all sorts of info.
- Keep in mind that I'm supposed to be working on the links that Dave brought up -- plus, I'm supposed to be working on chores in the afternoon in general...

--- Jabba
I'm sorry, but I must have missed it...

Would you please explain how a series of parallel marks that do not cross each other, that do not resemble the marks of any actual flogging (be careful looking THAT up on Google), and that do not consist of blood;
marks that are laid at non-anatomical angles upon a non-anatomical physically inaccurate representation of a stylized human figure;
marks that, further, appear on a cloth that WAS NOT wrapped around the anatomically impossible representation of a stylized human being in question; are, in any way, a 'smoking gun" AGAINST the 14C dates?
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Old 7th November 2012, 05:54 PM   #3978
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
No, there isn't. It wasn't that long ago that I attended Easter services, and the readings quite clearly and unambiguously state that the head-cloth was lying separately from the rest of the shroud when they found the tomb empty. At minimum, that means that the head was wrapped with a separate cloth. Where is that separate cloth, Jabba? Or is the Bible wrong--and therefore a useless reference? It's one or the other for your side--either the shroud is right and the Bible wrong, or the Bible is right and the shroud a fake. (My side holds that both are fakes, so it's a moot point.)
No, you see, the shroud was in fact in two pieces but they were invisibly rewoven together to make it easier to display.
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Old 7th November 2012, 05:58 PM   #3979
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Pakeha,

- No. You'll have to point those out. You and I tend to "see" things differently.
- I think that "wrapped" doesn't mean that the shroud itself encircled the body in a horizontal fashion. Though, there probably were a couple of "belts" that encircled the Shroud in a horizontal fashion (this could also explain the mention, in the Bible, of linen CLOTHS (plural).

- Looking up the "Shroud of Grushetskaya," it sure doesn't look like it was made to encircle her body horizontally.
- At http://burialpapoose.com/natural-gre...achrichim.html, you can find a picture of Grushetskaya’s shroud, and note that on that same professional webpage showing other shrouds, and other types of shrouds, they show the Shroud of Turin. They seem to accept that the TS is a legitimate kind of shroud – that wasn’t used horizontally.

- That’s all the time I have for now.

--- Jabba
LOL

And what, exactly, does this website say about the shroud of Turin itself?
"Shroud of Turin

The Shroud of Turin dates back to sometime during the Middle Ages, likely between 1260 and 1390 and is made of herringbone twill that is composed of flax fibrils, sized 14.3 ft. by 2.7 ft."
Talk about cherry-picking and dishonesty...
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Old 7th November 2012, 11:34 PM   #3980
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dinwar,
- The Sudarium appears to be the face cloth from Jesus' tomb. It's just a cloth full of old blood that appears to match perfectly with the Shroud. It is documented back to the 6th or 7th century. Now will you track it down on Google? Google has all sorts of info.
- Keep in mind that I'm supposed to be working on the links that Dave brought up -- plus, I'm supposed to be working on chores in the afternoon in general...

--- Jabba
When you speak of the Sudarium of Oviedo, you're talking about this - right? It's a browncloth with some stains on it. So, what?

Last edited by TimCallahan; 7th November 2012 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 8th November 2012, 12:48 AM   #3981
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Squeegee,
- The links that Dave brought up have to do with the scourge marks.
- I'm trying to use the scourge marks to show that no one could forge the Shroud in the 14th century -- but, Dave's links seem to discredit the scourge marks.
--- Jabba


Just out of interest - when were these scourge marks first noticed?

Were they pointed out when the shroud was first seen around 1400AD?

Or is it only much more recently that someone notched these marks and said they were made by Roman soldiers flogging Jesus?

Who was it that first claimed these were scourge marks, and when did that claim first surface?
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Old 8th November 2012, 03:46 AM   #3982
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dinwar,
- The Sudarium appears to be the face cloth from Jesus' tomb. It's just a cloth full of old blood that appears to match perfectly with the Shroud. It is documented back to the 6th or 7th century. Now will you track it down on Google? Google has all sorts of info.
Evidence for these claims? Or are you just wasting our time again?

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Squeegee,
- The links that Dave brought up have to do with the scourge marks.
- I'm trying to use the scourge marks to show that no one could forge the Shroud in the 14th century -- but, Dave's links seem to discredit the scourge marks.
--- Jabba
No. The supposed blood is irrelevant to the radiocarbon dating. Remember? The thing you claimed you were addressing.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
And the scourge marks have nothing to do with the C14 dating. What you need is some peer-reviewed science.
There's a pitiful lack of such supporting the authenticity of the shroud.

Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
When you speak of the Sudarium of Oviedo, you're talking about this - right? It's a browncloth with some stains on it. So, what?
Exactly.
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Old 8th November 2012, 04:43 AM   #3983
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Carbon Dating/Smoking Gun?

Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
No, there isn't. It wasn't that long ago that I attended Easter services, and the readings quite clearly and unambiguously state that the head-cloth was lying separately from the rest of the shroud when they found the tomb empty. At minimum, that means that the head was wrapped with a separate cloth. Where is that separate cloth, Jabba? Or is the Bible wrong--and therefore a useless reference? It's one or the other for your side--either the shroud is right and the Bible wrong, or the Bible is right and the shroud a fake. (My side holds that both are fakes, so it's a moot point.)
- Note that by giving in and responding to Dinwar's post, I stirred up a hornet's nest -- giving me numerous more 'stings' to deal with, when I was already overwhelmed by numerous new stings from Dave's #3913.
- So, once again, I'll try to resist the temptation to defend my whole perimeter -- and focus, instead, upon one 'small' front at a time. Back to 3913...
--- Jabba
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Last edited by Jabba; 8th November 2012 at 04:46 AM.
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Old 8th November 2012, 05:13 AM   #3984
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Carbon Dating/Smoking Gun?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davefoc (3913)
...

This site is a skeptical view of the "scourge marks":
http://shroudofturinwithoutallthehyp...roud-of-turin/

The author makes a few interesting points that provides daunting evidence against the notion that the "scourge marks" are scourge marks:
1. The claim in that the scourge marks were produced by Roman flagrum which was a whip that had little balls attached to the end of the whip cords. The portion of the whip cord between the little balls is allegedly visible in the shroud image but what is missing is any sign of the whip cord itself that is closer to the handle part of the whip than where the balls are. Somehow the person allegedly doing the whipping causes the end of the whip (including the balls and the whip cord between them) to touch the body of the victim without ever leaving an impression of the whip cord that lies nearer the handle than where the balls are attached…
Dave,
- It sure seems to me that such makes sense – remember using a rolled up towel as a whip in the locker room? It was only the very end that you wanted to pop your "friend" with. Not only was that probably the technique typically used with the flagrum by the Roman soldiers, but the ends of their whips were heavier than the rest of the cord. In addition, the portion of the whip cord between the little balls was possibly (probably?) thinner than the rest of the cord, and therefore more likely to cut.
--- Jabba
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Old 8th November 2012, 05:26 AM   #3985
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Note that by giving in and responding to Dinwar's post, I stirred up a hornet's nest -- giving me numerous more 'stings' to deal with, when I was already overwhelmed by numerous new stings from Dave's #3913.
If you're feeling overwhelmed, I'd suggest dealing with the core issue of the C14 dating. What you need is scientific evidence that it wasn't valid.

Quote:
- So, once again, I'll try to resist the temptation to defend my whole perimeter -- and focus, instead, upon one 'small' front at a time. Back to 3913...
--- Jabba
Or, even better, back to discussing the C14 dating, rather than this dishonest tangent.
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Old 8th November 2012, 07:04 AM   #3986
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- It sure seems to me that such makes sense – remember using a rolled up towel as a whip in the locker room? It was only the very end that you wanted to pop your "friend" with. Not only was that probably the technique typically used with the flagrum by the Roman soldiers, but the ends of their whips were heavier than the rest of the cord. In addition, the portion of the whip cord between the little balls was possibly (probably?) thinner than the rest of the cord, and therefore more likely to cut.
--- Jabba
*sigh*

So now you are claiming that your a Roman flagellator would have wielded a scourge the way a schoolboy flicks a towel? Have you thought about this at all? Try it: roll three rat-tails; dip the ends in water; pop them against a wall, being sure that only the tips touch the wall. Compare the marks made on the wall to the "scourge marks" on the shroud.

Or, you could research how flails have been wielded since ancient Egypt.

Or, you could acquire an actual flail. and try to wield it in the flicking manner you need to have happened for your claim to make any sense.

Or, you could simply explain how marks that were not made by a flail used in a way that flails are not; marks appearing on the non-anatomical stylyized representation of a figure; marks not comprised of, nor containing blood; marks appearing on a cloth in a way that obviates any possibility that the representation was transferred to the cloth when it was wrapped around the non-anatomical stylized figure in question...

...have any kind of probative value at ALL against the 14C dates arrived at independently by three labs.

Because you STILL have not dealt with the dates...
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Old 8th November 2012, 07:24 AM   #3987
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Carbon Dating/Smoking Gun?
You keep entering that, and then start talking about something completely different, such as:

Quote:
- Note that by giving in and responding to Dinwar's post, I stirred up a hornet's nest -- giving me numerous more 'stings' to deal with, when I was already overwhelmed by numerous new stings from Dave's #3913.
- So, once again, I'll try to resist the temptation to defend my whole perimeter -- and focus, instead, upon one 'small' front at a time. Back to 3913...
--- Jabba

Do you think you could just focus on the carbon dating? Can you give one serious reason why it might be inaccurate, apart from wishful thinking?
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Old 8th November 2012, 07:59 AM   #3988
Dinwar
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Originally Posted by Jabba
- It sure seems to me that such makes sense
That's our immediate cue to be highly skeptical. Your idea of sense has been demonstrated to be wrong many, many times.

Quote:
remember using a rolled up towel as a whip in the locker room? It was only the very end that you wanted to pop your "friend" with.
A whip isn't a rolled-up towel. You want a length of the fall to hit the guy in some cases; in others, not so much. It depends on the type of whip. Besides, it's inevitable that SOME of the fall after the tip will hit, merely from the angles the whip will be at when the guy's whipped. Again, you can see this yourself in nearly any city if you ask the right folks.

Quote:
Not only was that probably the technique typically used with the flagrum by the Roman soldiers,
Which document did you read this in? This is a bit of archaeological data which we almost certainly have; therefore it's insane to take your word for it, particularly since you seem to have no experience with actual whips.

None of this negates the C14 dating, as all of this technology was readily available to everyone since long before Rome. I can buy cat-o'-nines quite easily today, and whips were FAR more common in the Middle Ages. Finding someone who'd been whipped to lay on the cloth, or to model for the cloth, would have been a trivial task--or the monk could have done it to himself to begin with (enough of them did it that it wouldn't have appeared out of place).
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:08 AM   #3989
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Oh, Jabba.
What do scourge marks or possible bloodstains even matter if the cloth is dated to the 14th century?
But now that we're here, l have a question:
Why would anyone imagine there could ever be any difficulty whatsoever in finding someone to flog in any given century?

Anyway, while Jabba considers the implications of scourging through the ages, allow me to remind our gentle readers that 2012 is the 500th anniversary of the Isenheim Altarpiece
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isenheim_Altarpiece

This remarkable work includes my favourite depiction of a musician, an awesome Resurrection and possibly the most hideous cruxifixion ever painted.
Grunewald's depiction of the scourge marks merits special attention in the context of the discussion.
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:49 AM   #3990
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Carbon Dating/Smoking Gun?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davefoc (3913)
...

This site is a skeptical view of the "scourge marks":
http://shroudofturinwithoutallthehyp...roud-of-turin/

The author makes a few interesting points that provides daunting evidence against the notion that the "scourge marks" are scourge marks:
…2. His most devastating argument that the "scourge marks" are not scourge marks is his observation that the "scourge marks" lie on the body and and across the edge of the arms. This would only be possible if the victim held his arms the way they are shown in the shroud image while he was being whipped...
Dave,
- To be honest, I don't follow his logic. Couldn't the victim be suspended from a horizontal bar (without the vertical "bar" in the middle) in much the same way as he was suspended from the cross, and scourged from both front and back -- and, exhibit the same marks? Superficially at least, I can't see why not.
--- Jabba
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Old 8th November 2012, 10:14 AM   #3991
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Originally Posted by Jabba
Superficially at least, I can't see why not.
Given the state of your knowledge, that's hardly surprising.

Here's the thing: Romans had systematic, institutionalized and formalized ways of beating people. They are well-documented, and were part of the normal legal process. It's the equivalent of our cross-examination in terms of how surprised any Roman was when they were used. Several major Roman senators even argued that without using specific techniques the testamony of certain groups should be declared inadmissible.

We know what those marks look like. It's easy enough to determine how they'd look if the limbs were moved. And they DO NOT look like the shroud. If you look up Roman whipping techniques, you'll see why quite quickly.

Also, Roman floggings tended to be powerful enough to knock people over. They actually used that systematically to dislocate arms and legs (while suspending you from said limbs--Romans weren't nice people). I'd love to see someone try to do that with just the tip of the falls on a cat.
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Old 9th November 2012, 12:44 AM   #3992
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^
I did a quick search on flogging techniques but had to desist rather early on- the photos of the Philippine penitents were too much for me.

This reminds me, however, why I find the mentality of the pro-authenticity defenders to be like that of CT believers. They both seem to rely on rumour and half truths and pseudo-science which never stand up to examination.
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Old 9th November 2012, 05:49 AM   #3993
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
^
I did a quick search on flogging techniques but had to desist rather early on- the photos of the Philippine penitents were too much for me.

This reminds me, however, why I find the mentality of the pro-authenticity defenders to be like that of CT believers. They both seem to rely on rumour and half truths and pseudo-science which never stand up to examination.
IMHO they rely on rumor and half truth, because they , subconsciously or not, realize that their claim would rapidely fall apart if they try to research more solid data.
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:17 AM   #3994
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Carbon Dating/Smoking Gun?

Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Oh, Jabba.
What do scourge marks or possible bloodstains even matter if the cloth is dated to the 14th century?
But now that we're here, l have a question:
Why would anyone imagine there could ever be any difficulty whatsoever in finding someone to flog in any given century...
Pakeha,
- In regard to your last question: I don’t know. We humans are still pretty barbaric -- and surely, we were more barbaric in the 14th century than we are now. That isn’t my issue.
- However, the probability of there being a person of the 14th century (or, a group of such persons) 1) willing to do the necessary flogging, 2) able to place the flogging and other wounds so accurately (including a couple of non-traditional -- but probably correct -- details), and 3) somehow able to get the image transferred, and transferred so effectively to the Shroud, should be damned small.
- In other words, if we are stuck with an imprint (which we would be if I'm right about the serum clot retraction rings), rather than a painting, the probability is quite large that the Shroud is that of Jesus, and the 14th century dating is just wrong.
--- Jabba
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:24 AM   #3995
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- In other words, if we are stuck with an imprint (which we would be if I'm right about the serum clot retraction rings), rather than a painting, the probability is quite large that the Shroud is that of Jesus, and the 14th century dating is just wrong.
--- Jabba
I'm guessing probability is a term with which you lack a certain familiarity.

That's what I'm guessing.
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:30 AM   #3996
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Pakeha,
- In regard to your last question: I don’t know. We humans are still pretty barbaric -- and surely, we were more barbaric in the 14th century than we are now. That isn’t my issue.
- However, the probability of there being a person of the 14th century (or, a group of such persons) 1) willing to do the necessary flogging, 2) able to place the flogging and other wounds so accurately (including a couple of non-traditional -- but probably correct -- details), and 3) somehow able to get the image transferred, and transferred so effectively to the Shroud, should be damned small.
- In other words, if we are stuck with an imprint (which we would be if I'm right about the serum clot retraction rings), rather than a painting, the probability is quite large that the Shroud is that of Jesus, and the 14th century dating is just wrong.
--- Jabba
"1) willing to do the necessary flogging,"

That is the msot STUPID statement I read in a few days.

People FLOG themselves in spain and philippine all the time each easter.

People were FLOGGING themselves to "repent" their sin during the whole middle age.

"2) able to place the flogging and other wounds so accurately (including a couple of non-traditional -- but probably correct -- details), "

That is the most pretty stupid things I read since... 10 seconds.

IF you use the same type of whip there is no reason to have JC flogging look differentely than any other flogging.

"3) somehow able to get the image transferred, "

Yeah and transffered without lateral deformation of the image as one would expect. But i don't expect you to pick that one up.

Soooooo how about that 14C dating ?

"- In other words, if we are stuck with an imprint (which we would be if I'm right about the serum clot retraction rings), rather than a painting, the probability is quite large that the Shroud is that of Jesus, and the 14th century dating is just wrong."

Non Sequitur. Look that one up.
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:46 AM   #3997
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Carbon Dating/Smoking Gun?

Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
Given the state of your knowledge, that's hardly surprising.

Here's the thing: Romans had systematic, institutionalized and formalized ways of beating people. They are well-documented, and were part of the normal legal process. It's the equivalent of our cross-examination in terms of how surprised any Roman was when they were used. Several major Roman senators even argued that without using specific techniques the testamony of certain groups should be declared inadmissible.

We know what those marks look like. It's easy enough to determine how they'd look if the limbs were moved. And they DO NOT look like the shroud. If you look up Roman whipping techniques, you'll see why quite quickly.

Also, Roman floggings tended to be powerful enough to knock people over. They actually used that systematically to dislocate arms and legs (while suspending you from said limbs--Romans weren't nice people). I'd love to see someone try to do that with just the tip of the falls on a cat.
Dinwar,
- Can you point me to a specific link showing the whipping techniques? So far, the only conflict I've found between standard Roman techniques and what we see on the Shroud is that (according to what I read), the arms and forearms were usually spared from the flogging due to the way the victim was suspended during the flogging.
- Thanks.
--- Jabba
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:58 AM   #3998
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Pakeha,
- In regard to your last question: I don’t know. We humans are still pretty barbaric -- and surely, we were more barbaric in the 14th century than we are now. That isn’t my issue.
- However, the probability of there being a person of the 14th century (or, a group of such persons) 1) willing to do the necessary flogging, 2) able to place the flogging and other wounds so accurately (including a couple of non-traditional -- but probably correct -- details), and 3) somehow able to get the image transferred, and transferred so effectively to the Shroud, should be damned small.
- In other words, if we are stuck with an imprint (which we would be if I'm right about the serum clot retraction rings), rather than a painting, the probability is quite large that the Shroud is that of Jesus, and the 14th century dating is just wrong.
--- Jabba
I simply cannot believe you take 1) seriously.
2) and 3) have been dealt with already.
Or have you forgotten the posts I've drawn your attention to?

We already know the serum clot retraction rings are nothing more than figments of imagination.
Have you really forgotten the discussion at the Atheists' Forum?
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:01 AM   #3999
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Carbon Dating/Smoking Gun?

Originally Posted by Resume View Post
I'm guessing probability is a term with which you lack a certain familiarity.

That's what I'm guessing.
Resume,
- Obviously, this will only meet with derision, but I can't resist pointing it out anyway -- I'm actually a certified Statistician, and LOVE probability. Take a look at
http://messiahornot.com/ACT2Scene1.php,
http://messiahornot.com/Act2Scene2.php and
http://messiahornot.com/Virtually1.php
-- if you dare.
--- Jabba
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:12 AM   #4000
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Resume,
- Obviously, this will only meet with derision, but I can't resist pointing it out anyway -- I'm actually a certified Statistician, and LOVE probability. Take a look at
http://messiahornot.com/ACT2Scene1.php,
Once you've drawn an ace from a normal pack of cards the probability of drawing a second ace is 3/51, not 1/13. The 3rd ace is 2/50 (1/25) and 4th ace is 1/49.

Colour me unimpressed with your statistical abilities.
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