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21st November 2012, 08:47 AM | #4241 |
"más divertido"
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21st November 2012, 09:01 AM | #4242 |
Troublesome Passenger
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21st November 2012, 09:48 AM | #4243 |
No longer the 1
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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21st November 2012, 09:54 AM | #4244 |
Penultimate Amazing
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21st November 2012, 11:26 AM | #4245 |
Membership Drive
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Rich:
You do not have to explain that you are not interested in the truth, but instead are only interested in anything you can twist into the slightest, most fantastical suggestion that the cloth might ("must be") be the True Shroud™, despite its medieval provenance. Then, in your mind, that unlikely suggestion becomes The Truth™. You never bothered to answer me as to why you don't just admit that you think the cloth is, in fact, by miraculous means, the True Shroud™. Why not just admit it, call it a miracle, soothe yourself that your faith is intact, and "hae'done wi' it"? Reality is not on your side... |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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21st November 2012, 11:29 AM | #4246 |
Banned
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Jabba, just say that god waved his magic wand and the thread can end.
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21st November 2012, 12:39 PM | #4247 |
Philosopher
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Carbon Dating/Relevance of Blood
Giordano,
- I haven't given up trying to show that 14C data is wrong -- but, the presence of blood on the Shroud is like my first premise in an extended syllogism that is supposed to show that the 14C data is wrong. So, trying to show that Catsmate's last post was wrong is probably a good place to start. --- Jabba |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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21st November 2012, 12:45 PM | #4248 |
Troublesome Passenger
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21st November 2012, 12:59 PM | #4249 |
Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs!
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"You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin |
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21st November 2012, 01:10 PM | #4250 |
Penultimate Amazing
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21st November 2012, 01:32 PM | #4251 |
Philosopher
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New thread
- In case you haven't noticed, I just started my new thread on "immortality."
--- Jabba |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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21st November 2012, 01:46 PM | #4252 |
Banned
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21st November 2012, 02:03 PM | #4253 | ||
Non credunt, semper verificare
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You are going off tangent on absolutely USELESS information which in no way WHATSOEVER impact the dating.
Anybody impartial would see how frigging ridiculous this is. By now the only conclusion can only be : <SNIP>
* you have long recognized you lost the debate, but rather than admit it you just try to go for "length" and hope everybody else abandon the debate thus declaring victory by having the last word. |
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21st November 2012, 02:48 PM | #4254 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Perhaps I chose my wording ill.
What is clear is that your own investigation both of the invisible weaving ploy and the existence of blood have undermined any credibility those claims had. I'll be looking forward to seeing any evidence that defends that position. Bookmarked. At the end of the day, the 'blood' is just wishful thinking. |
21st November 2012, 02:54 PM | #4255 |
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Even if it was blood, that would not aid Jabba's case.
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21st November 2012, 05:43 PM | #4256 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Your defence is like trying to arange battleships to blockade a rook in a game of chess--it shows that you don't know what you're talking about, down to the most basic level.
Quote:
Quote:
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21st November 2012, 11:40 PM | #4257 |
Penultimate Amazing
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22nd November 2012, 03:19 AM | #4258 |
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Rubbish. The supposed presence of blood is utterly unconnected with the radiocarbon dating. Neither is necessarily related to the other.
Feel free to try. You didn't manage it the last time. You could start with listing the evidence for the presence of blood; what tests were performed, by whom, using what techniques/equipment and the exact results of them. Correct. Lots of dodgy claims, utter lack of facts and evidence to support them Probably he'll just start repeating them. Again. |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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22nd November 2012, 04:19 AM | #4259 |
Schrödinger's cat
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I think Jabba is taking the idea of weighing up evidence far too literally, i.e. he thinks you can put the evidence for and against something on the two pans of some metaphorical scales and see which way they tip. He accepts that the carbon dating evidence is a huge weight on the "against authenticity" side of this particular argument, but believes that if can find enough pro-authenticity feathers he can pile them up on the other side of the scales until they tip that way.
It doesn't matter how many people point out to him that scientific arguments simply don't work like that, he's going to carry on doing it regardless. |
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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22nd November 2012, 04:40 AM | #4260 |
No longer the 1
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__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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22nd November 2012, 07:00 AM | #4261 |
Philosopher
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Carbon Dating/Blood on Shroud
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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22nd November 2012, 07:35 AM | #4262 |
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Feel free to do so. Remember details of the tests, who ran them and the results they showed. Not just your usual selection of unsubstantiated claims.
And may I suggest you keep notes on what's been discussed? It would save time and eliminate the continual repetition and rehashing of points. |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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22nd November 2012, 08:40 AM | #4263 |
Illuminator
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You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis |
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22nd November 2012, 10:56 AM | #4264 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Heller and Adler?
http://www.opticsinfobase.org/ao/abs...=ao-19-16-2742 Here's an interesting take on their paper: http://shroudofturinwithoutallthehyp...s-now-present/ |
22nd November 2012, 11:15 AM | #4265 |
Penultimate Amazing
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It's largely irrelevant one way or the other. If you examined most of my clothing, you'd find blood on it. I tend to bleed a lot (working with sharp metal will do that). That doesn't mean that my blue jeans or t-shirts are the burial shroud of Christ. Furthermore, the thing was IN A FIRE. That's not exactly a safe place to be. People tend to bleed when rescuing things from fires. I've seen it first-hand. So even if there was blood, and even if it wasn't put there by an artist (something you've in no way even attempted to demonstrate), it STILL says NOTHING other than "There's blood here." There are far, far too many alternate explanations.
You are again excluding all the explanations you dislike, and only admitting the ones you do as possible. This is a critical failure in someone who claims to be a statistician. It is incompetence--and an incompetent statistician can't be trusted, so we can disregard your assessment of odds wholesale (and since all we have to go on are your assessments, that means your arguments just evaporated). |
22nd November 2012, 11:49 PM | #4266 |
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Sindonist Archaeology is not Archaeology at all.
The principal point is: The discipline who studies old blood is Archaeometry or Scientific Archaeology. How many scientific archaeological studies (by experts in the matter) of the Turin Shroud have been done? Answer: no one. Point two: Are classic tests for blood detection (McCrone) useful in archaeometry? Answer: No. There is an archeological study (independent) that had used the Adler&Heller’s methods for detecting ancient blood? Answer: No. A study made by non-experts and not replicated by true experts can be conclusive? Answer. No.
Draw your own conclusions, please. |
23rd November 2012, 04:17 AM | #4267 |
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__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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23rd November 2012, 10:23 AM | #4268 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I was surprised how little the H and A paper actually presented: a lot of negative results, a graph sowing the "blood" on the shroud did not match very well with real blood, and many assertions without data. No proof of blood by any means!
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23rd November 2012, 10:38 AM | #4269 |
a carbon based life-form
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23rd November 2012, 01:53 PM | #4270 |
Penultimate Amazing
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24th November 2012, 08:11 AM | #4271 |
Philosopher
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Blood/Heller&Adler
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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24th November 2012, 09:16 AM | #4272 |
Meandering fecklessly
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This is absolutely ridiculous.
The sources for Adler and Heller's claim is twofold: Adler. Heller. In other words, as has been pointed out to you about six different times (in differing fonts no less) the conclusions they draw are wildly incorrect considering their own evidence they found. This obfuscation was humorous at first, but now it's just getting tiresome. |
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A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned. -Shepard Book |
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24th November 2012, 09:22 AM | #4273 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Jabba,
Do you read anyone's posts to this thread other than your own? You can find multiple sources for these sources, including one just a few posts above your own (4267). Even if you are pretending to be a lawyer, you need to listen to the opposing side's case if you hope for your side to prevail. |
24th November 2012, 09:24 AM | #4274 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
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@ the norseman, it has become beyond tiresome, he was told so many time in proper way by peoples. I'll avoid to comment on the issue , got my first warning for a long time, and I am not too keen on being banned.
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24th November 2012, 09:34 AM | #4275 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I used the search engine for the thread, Jabba, and found these posts bycatsmate1:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1401 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1623 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...er#post8512307 And this one of yours: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...er#post8545756 And from Dave Mo: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...er#post8551290 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...er#post8551822 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...er#post8601905 IanS: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...er#post8601826 And myself: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=3903 Enjoy reading what's already been posted up on the subject. ETA: This list of deathless information was posted in reply to this:
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25th November 2012, 01:23 AM | #4276 |
Meandering fecklessly
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A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned. -Shepard Book |
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25th November 2012, 02:35 AM | #4277 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Actually, I see the thread differently, perhaps because I know just how convincing the 'proofs' and 'evidence' of the pro-authenticity proponents are to those who haven't learned that supernatural 'relics' are simply flim-flam.
I think these discussions serve to create a pool of references on the subject of the TS thanks to the contributions of so many knowledgeable and articulate people. Anyway, over time I'm going to fine down and hone proper reference entries to quantify the falsification of the following claims: That blood was found on the TS. That an 'invisible weave' caused confusion in the C14 dating. That changes in the protocols diminish the reliability conclusions of the C14 dating. It won't be anything original on my part- just a recopilation and ordering of information and sources from the discussions here at the JREF. Call it my 2013 project. Once I have rough working drafts going, I'll post them up for your target practise. Now, back to your regular programming. I'm looking forward to reading Jabba's evidence about the presence of blood on the TS. ETA: Thinking it over, is the subject even worth so much effort? The TS is dated to the 14th century. It's a medieval relic , acknowledged as such by the Vatican. Jabba amuses themself by posting here and we amuse ourselves by replying. At the end of the day, belief in fake relics will die away, just as belief in the magical properties of eclipses and thunder did. Still, it IS amusing to see the pseudo-science of the TS treated here. |
25th November 2012, 07:22 AM | #4278 |
Philosopher
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Blood/Heller&Adler
Originally Posted by catsmate1
It's already refuted garbage. 1. Heller and Adler claimed to find blood on the cloth. Actually they did not... Originally Posted by Jabba Catsmate, - What are your sources for this claim? --- Jabba Giordano, - Your first suggestion in 4267 is an article by Heller and Adler themselves, and you can't read the article w/o paying at least $15. - Your second suggestion is just an “argument” -- with no citations -- written and posted by Colin Berry on his own blog. This would probably be a good starting point if Berry had provided citations. - As they stand, I don’t think these “sources” help your cause very much. - Can you point me to some of the others? - Thanks. --- Jabba |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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25th November 2012, 07:37 AM | #4279 |
Penultimate Amazing
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So you are admitting that you haven't even read the Heller and Adler article, and yet you are using it as proof of blood on the Shroud.
And by omission you admit you haven't read the many posts linked to by Pakeha showing that the article you haven't read is flawed. Methinks the judge would find you in contempt. |
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25th November 2012, 07:52 AM | #4280 |
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I've already dealt with this, as have others, at length. Stop wasting time demanding we was time repeatedly debunk your rubbish.
Your claim of blood, your job to support with. With facts and evidence. Yeah, well what can you expect from someone who's admitted that his belief in the shroud's authenticity trumps actual facts. I repeat, what can you expect from someone who's admitted that his Are we really surprised? Jabba's been shown to not bother to read the crap he claims supports his beliefs before. Well he already has my contempt. |
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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