|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
29th June 2012, 04:09 AM | #2041 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
|
|
29th June 2012, 04:22 AM | #2042 |
Winking at the Moon
Administrator
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 16,711
|
His faith is so weak he needs to support it with fake artefacts?
One thing I find strange about shroud-believers (those who believe the shroud to be the 1st century burial cloth of Jesus) is that they seem to be unsatisfied with something which is a marvel. The shroud as a 14th century item is still a wonderful example of mediaeval artistic endeavour. Why not enjoy it for what it actually is, instead of trying to imbue it with all kinds of fake mysticism? |
__________________
Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader |
|
29th June 2012, 04:23 AM | #2043 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 37,583
|
|
29th June 2012, 06:09 AM | #2044 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
|
|
__________________
Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
29th June 2012, 09:43 AM | #2045 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
|
Good points!
I think you'll find they've been brought up in an older thread here on the subject of the TS, but being reminded of them is alsways good. @dafydd, boredom as a motive to re-cycle so many times the same material in the same way? Possible. Still, weaving an argument around thread-bare sources seems an odd occupation. Surely doing a full-sized reproduction of the TS in cross stitch would have done the trick nicely. |
__________________
How many zeros? Jabba |
|
29th June 2012, 09:52 AM | #2046 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
|
|
__________________
Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
29th June 2012, 10:13 AM | #2047 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 21,398
|
Older thread maybe, yes, but I haven't seen it here. Jabba has thrown out "it can't be replicated" assertion a few times, and it has been countered with "it has been replicated" but this information actually shows both of those of statements to be unfounded. We don't know if it can or can't be replicated, because we don't know what the original looked like. The statements of the church indicate that it is very different now from what it was originally, so any replications that make it look like it does now cannot be considered worth anything.
But that doesn't matter, since the claim that we can't replicate it is baseless. |
__________________
Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
|
29th June 2012, 10:25 AM | #2048 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
Posts: 14,571
|
Emphasis for Jabba since he likes color.
Jabba, you are *downright* wrong about the 14C sample having doubt on it. There is no going around this above. There is no "i tTHINK that..." there is only a fact : the sample was from the original shroud. Labs concluded independentely on the same date. You have no scientific evidence of any problem with the naalysis or even sampling. End of story. But you refuse it because it would break your belief. It would make all you worked for NIL. All that effort : worthless. So I expect fully that you will either leave here and not return for a long time (if ever) or you will try again to present then oft debunked argument again ignoring the simple fact that they are not groudned. Jabba, you are our "DOC of the Shroud". |
29th June 2012, 10:35 AM | #2049 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
|
|
__________________
How many zeros? Jabba |
|
29th June 2012, 12:20 PM | #2050 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,175
|
|
29th June 2012, 12:39 PM | #2051 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
|
I gather you think it's time to mend our ways?
|
__________________
How many zeros? Jabba |
|
29th June 2012, 02:00 PM | #2052 |
a carbon based life-form
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
|
|
29th June 2012, 02:30 PM | #2053 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,230
|
I'm on needles and pins.
Seriously though, has it not occurred to anyone that something else may be going on here? I have followed this thread, including the new one on the other website, and this is not rational behavior, in my humble opinion. Just read the auto-biography. I had a good friend who used to come into my shop once a day for two years outlining plans to build a swimming pool. Listing pros and cons, listing what could go wrong. Listing types of chemicals, listing placement options, listing reasons not to do it. I saw him about an hour ago after about 12 years. What a great reunion, they never did the pool by the way. Let's be kind to the shroud guy. |
29th June 2012, 02:33 PM | #2054 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
|
deleted. Beaten to it!
|
29th June 2012, 02:40 PM | #2055 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,230
|
Bad pun, but I have tried to redeem myself.
|
29th June 2012, 02:47 PM | #2056 |
Winking at the Moon
Administrator
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 16,711
|
Darn it, I can't believe you lot are taking over the thread with your puns. There's no material reason why weave stopped talking about the carbon dating; 'twill be a miracle if we avoid AAH, sew there.
|
__________________
Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader |
|
29th June 2012, 03:01 PM | #2057 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
|
|
29th June 2012, 03:18 PM | #2058 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,175
|
|
29th June 2012, 03:21 PM | #2059 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
|
|
29th June 2012, 11:13 PM | #2060 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
|
[quote=Olowkow;8411899]I'm on needles and pins.
Seriously though, has it not occurred to anyone that something else may be going on here? I have followed this thread, including the new one on the other website, and this is not rational behavior, in my humble opinion. Just read the auto-biography. ...[quote] I felt the same way, up to a point. For me the decisive point was the reference and the quotation of a paper presented at the recent Valencia (Spain) Shroud Conference. Why? Because Jabba cited the paper (without sourcing it) before it was 'published' on-line. I had to search to find that paper's origin, indeed. Why is this a curious little factoid? Because it suggests, at least to me, Jabba is receiving or has access to material from Shroudie 'experts'. I don't think Jabba is a lone Quixote by any means and I am curious as to when one of these 'experts' will post on this thread, if at all. Back to C14 dating! Isn't it odd Jabba has gone back to the long debunked patching/false sample gambit? |
__________________
How many zeros? Jabba |
|
30th June 2012, 01:28 PM | #2061 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,434
|
This topic keeps taking me down weird paths. I've been reading through this thread a bit at a time and one of those paths lead me to the conservapedia article on the shroud.
http://www.conservapedia.com/Shroud_of_Turin
Quote:
As an aside, I'm rereading Joe Nickell's book that I bought at a TAM many years ago now. As to the comments about Jabba: That interests me a bit also. I didn't understand how long this thing has been going on when I first commented in this thread. I have a few thoughts both about Jabba and the responses to him. First, for me, the responses to him have been unnecessarily antagonistic. He is not coming from the same place that people with a scientific or skeptical view of life are. That's just the way it is and no amount of rancor is going to make him all of a sudden develop a different world view. He has presented evidence. For me, the quality of his evidence that I've looked at is the same kind of thing that 9-11 conspiracy theorists put forth. But that is an opinion based on a world view where I expect the biases of some people to routinely lead them to believe weird things and to promote weird theories without adequate evidence. My world view leads me to find some people credible and others not credible based on how I perceive they are struggling to find truth. I suspect my approach to this is similar to that of the regular JREF posters in this thread and it is different than that of Jabba. But what is the point of this thread? For people to form a community around taking whacks at true believers or to engage in a thoughtful pursuit of truth with a true believer. I think it is most interesting if it is the latter but a lot of this thread looks like the former to me. A few more comments more specifically about Jabba: I think he is mostly what he presents himself to be. It is interesting that he presented some evidence that suggests he has been in contact with the what is called the shroudies in this thread. That doesn't seem surprising. I found some of his attempts to find truth and to discuss his ideas interesting since they went a bit against my assessment of him as mostly what I call a true believer. But then, as others have noted many times, he doesn't follow up with actual descriptions of what he is basing his beliefs on. The behavior strikes me as a little strange but not so weird that I think he is other that what he seems to be. Somebody that has bought in to the shroud mythology mostly and wants to test his beliefs a bit in a skeptical community. |
__________________
The way of truth is along the path of intellectual sincerity. -- Henry S. Pritchett Perfection is the enemy of good enough -- Russian proverb |
|
30th June 2012, 06:16 PM | #2062 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
|
Gosh.
Who knew the Shroudies had issued a challenge to Richard Dawkins on the subject of the TS? Here's one blogger's response to it. edited to add: Here's Dawkins' commentary which inspired the challenge. |
__________________
How many zeros? Jabba |
|
30th June 2012, 07:01 PM | #2063 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,434
|
Thanks for the links. I notice the blogger, advocated for the idea that the image was scourged. I don't think this represents the consensus scientific view today. Nickell produced pretty good results by just rubbing. To my eye Nickell's succeeded completely in creating an image (of the face) which looked very similar to the shroud. And the recently released results by the Italian group used a similar technique. Scourging also conflicts with what McCrone found. I have read several times in Shroud blogs that McCrone's work has been discredited. Is that routine Shroud blather or is there some substance to that?
I also noticed the blogger quoted Davor Aslanovski. The passage is a bit long so I won't quote it all but I thought it provided a very accurate description of what is going with regard to the shroud mythology.
Quote:
|
__________________
The way of truth is along the path of intellectual sincerity. -- Henry S. Pritchett Perfection is the enemy of good enough -- Russian proverb |
|
30th June 2012, 07:21 PM | #2064 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
|
Scourged or scorched?
The blogger mentions scorched, as far as I can tell and it appears to be an on-going experiment. Here's yet another take on the Shroud recently published. The comments of Professor Ramsey are telling.
Quote:
|
__________________
How many zeros? Jabba |
|
30th June 2012, 07:33 PM | #2065 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,434
|
|
__________________
The way of truth is along the path of intellectual sincerity. -- Henry S. Pritchett Perfection is the enemy of good enough -- Russian proverb |
|
30th June 2012, 07:36 PM | #2066 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
|
In any case, linen DOES fade and discolour easily in sunshine. And it scorches easily, too.
|
__________________
How many zeros? Jabba |
|
1st July 2012, 07:49 AM | #2067 |
a carbon based life-form
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
|
|
1st July 2012, 12:17 PM | #2068 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
|
|
__________________
How many zeros? Jabba |
|
1st July 2012, 01:06 PM | #2069 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,692
|
Rather convenient that the claimed patch is "invisible"! In that case it seems science and everyone else is wasting it’s time, because everything ever known in the universe might just as easily be claimed to be entirely wrong due to invisible evidence of the contrary. However, the Vatican's own scientific advisor and their textile expert examined the shroud for over a month, for the first in time in 500 years with the backing cloth removed, and they have repeatedly said that they are quite sure there was no such "invisible" patch and that they were amazed that Rogers could have made such a badly mistaken claim ... afaik, neither Ray Rogers nor Benford & Marino (who wrote the book which gave Rogers the idea of an “invisible” patch) have ever even seen the shroud since the C14 sample was cut (if they ever saw it at all). |
1st July 2012, 01:42 PM | #2070 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,434
|
If you mean by falsified, that the questionable arguments in favor of the implausible idea were shown to be false, then yes. If you mean that an invisible, undetectable patch was not seen and not detected then ...
But my question really went to whether this was the principal argument for the shroudies that the C14 results were incorrect. It seems like the contamination argument gave way to this argument when the contamination argument was discredited. And a related question: Do any pro-authenticity arguments ever die? |
__________________
The way of truth is along the path of intellectual sincerity. -- Henry S. Pritchett Perfection is the enemy of good enough -- Russian proverb |
|
1st July 2012, 01:58 PM | #2071 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
|
Here are several posts addressing the patching idea:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1593 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=492 http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=388 |
__________________
How many zeros? Jabba |
|
1st July 2012, 02:06 PM | #2072 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
|
When you investigate exactly what an invisible mend entails, you'll learn it is invisible from one side only.
The TS was separated from the Holland cloth backing in 2002 and extensively restored. The idea of an invisible mend has been falsified. 2012 also saw the falsification of the contamination idea as well.
Quote:
|
__________________
How many zeros? Jabba |
|
1st July 2012, 03:17 PM | #2073 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,434
|
I think this is true not only for bigfoot advocates, but also true of the microcultures that develop around many of these far out theories including the truther and birther groups.
One of the things that struck me about some of the shroudie literature I read through was the close correlation between the nature of the shroudie arguments and other the arguments of other groups characterized by an extreme unwillingness to acknowledge evidence that counteracts deeply held views. Confirmation bias is a powerful force for all human belief structures but something seems to happen in these groups where confirmation bias just spirals out of control. The process initially seems to be driven by other biases including a strong desire to be the teller and holder of unique esoteric knowledge and group bias where the individuals come to strongly identify with their fellow believers. But eventually belief becomes absolute like a one way door latched in one position forever. I don't understand what is going on here, but I came to notice the phenomena initially during the OJ Simpson trial. There was overwhelming evidence of Simpson's guilt and yet a whole little microculture developed populated with people that had a deep esoteric knowledge of the case and a variety of wildly implausible theories that ostensibly proved Simpson's innocence. |
__________________
The way of truth is along the path of intellectual sincerity. -- Henry S. Pritchett Perfection is the enemy of good enough -- Russian proverb |
|
2nd July 2012, 05:52 AM | #2074 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,692
|
Yes. Clearly all of the above may be going on in the case of Jabba's belief in the shroud (assuming of course that he really believes what he says, and is not just arguing for the sake of it). At risk of repetition - it seems to me that we are dealing here not so much with the shroud itself, but more specifically with Jabba's religious beliefs which persuade him to defend articles such as the shroud at all costs, inc. the cost of being blind to the difference between genuine scientific studies vs. religious propaganda of the sort which fills the internet on shroud websites. Is that “confirmation bias”? It seems to be a type of behaviour very common amongst theists who visit forums like this (eg also evident on the old Richard Dawkins forum and on Rational Scepticism). That is - they treat religious claims and scientific discoveries as equally likely, and as if scientific explanations were only a 50/50 matter of choice or personal opinion, and no more valid than the religious claims which fill Christian websites and certain religious books. It's most obvious amongst creationists who deny evolution, where their arguments often end up in claims that because science can't absolutely prove all aspects of evolution, it should be taken as equally likely that creationist answers are true instead. In Jabba's case he regards the claims made on shroud websites as equally likely and of equal validity to any independent scientific studies. On that basis he concludes, as he has actually said here several times, that the overwhelming volume of evidence is on the side of shroud authenticity, because shroud websites have posted 1000x as much verbiage about the shroud as has ever appeared in any genuine scientific studies. Religious belief is obviously a driving force behind that behaviour. But perhaps too a significant factor is scientific ignorance and the belief that science is no more valid than anyone’s personal uniformed opinion. |
2nd July 2012, 07:13 AM | #2075 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30,147
|
|
2nd July 2012, 07:21 AM | #2076 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
Some things that are clear from this thread:
Jabba, despite months of prevarication, has no evidence to offer. The authenticity of the shroud is pure bunk having been disproven by the C14 analysis. The authenticity of the shroud is entirely irrelevant to any faith, and nobody can tell why bleevers glom onto it as in any way important to their faith. Can this thread die now? Pleez? |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
2nd July 2012, 08:33 AM | #2077 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 21,398
|
I disagree. The patient and kind approach was initially attempted, but failed. Go back to the beginning, people actually treated Jabba as someone who was interested in constructive discussion. He came in boasting about how he was highly educated on the subject, and even maintained a webpage dedicated to shroud authenticity. However, after months and months of attempts to engage him, people got frustrated. The nice approach failed, it became necessary to change tactics. In the end, people got tired of banging their head on the wall, and started taking it out on him, since he was causing them to do it.
In the end, none of this is really necessary, of course, but given that rational attempts were failing, something needed to change. |
__________________
Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
|
2nd July 2012, 09:30 AM | #2078 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 37,583
|
|
2nd July 2012, 03:44 PM | #2079 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
|
|
2nd July 2012, 10:51 PM | #2080 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
|
I can.
Check out the cottage industries spawned by relics. In fact, this was apparently the reason the Pope ordered those limits on the exposition of the TS. All of this has been gone over earlier in this very thread. From what I could observe at Bruges, where the relic of the Holy Blood is exhibited three times a day in the Basilica, the steady flow of cash generated by offerings plus the sale of trinkets is considerable. |
__________________
How many zeros? Jabba |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|