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Tags shroud of turin

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Old 22nd October 2012, 03:11 AM   #3721
abaddon
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
I'm quite curious about this as well.

It seems to me that even if the shroud was dated to the first century, the cloth was identified as a product of Jerusalem, it was shown to have been soaked in bluuurd and it had a little tag in one corner saying "Property of Jesus" we'd still be no closer to demonstrating that anything in the Bible was true.

In fact, given that the shroud of Turin differs significantly from the gospel accounts of Jesus' burial accoutrements, evidence of its authenticity would tend to show that the Bible got the story wrong.
Hmmm

I intended to post a speculative bit, but was unable to come up with a plausible narrative. No matter how you slice it, wild leaps of faith are required.

So, agreed. Even if one were to establish the date of the shroud being 1st century, then what? I simply cannot invent a scenario where this means anything at all.

Well, maybe just one.

If you start with the assumption that the shroud is genuine, then it may be possible to work backwards, and retro-fit everything into your preconceived conclusion. Maybe. If you are prepared to accept levitating jebus corpse plus levitating shroud plus radioactive imprinting of an image plus nobody else wrapped a corpse in this fashion plus da bluuurrrrrd plus the unlikely anatomy plus the simple fact that I would pay good money for a front row seat if one could put jabba, doc, edge, mikeyx, epix and peacecrusader in the ring together. Why is it that they never debate each other?
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Old 22nd October 2012, 03:20 AM   #3722
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Why is it that they never debate each other?


I think their points of view are polarised on different planes so that unless they happen to hold their heads at just the right angle they're invisible to each other.
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Old 22nd October 2012, 03:23 AM   #3723
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Slowvehicle has recommended that I now present my perceived evidence for Shroud authenticity. That's what I'll do unless I get another (serious) suggestion or two.
--- Jabba
You could reply to the serious suggestion made in post #3594.
Originally Posted by Multivac View Post
Could I make a suggestion? Rather than trying to diagram the discussion, could you please just give us a very simple statement about why you think the C14 data is wrong.

Preferably in the format of "I think the C14 data is wrong because of blah, blah and blah. Here is the data thta led me to this conclusion......."

Thanks
Apologies for referencing one of my own posts.
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Old 22nd October 2012, 06:10 AM   #3724
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Game Plan

- OK.
- Now I have two nominations as to what sub-etc-issue to address next: 1) my perceived evidence for Shroud authenticity, and 2) my perceived evidence against the carbon dating. Any more votes for one of these? Or, any votes for something else?
--- Jabba
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Old 22nd October 2012, 06:25 AM   #3725
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Pain Glam

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- OK.
- Now I have two nominations as to what sub-etc-issue to address next: 1) my perceived evidence for Shroud authenticity, and 2) my perceived evidence against the carbon dating. Any more votes for one of these? Or, any votes for something else?
--- Jabba


These two ssues are one and the same thing and they've been waiting for you to address them for months.

You don't really think anyone believes you're going to do so now, do you?
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Old 22nd October 2012, 06:32 AM   #3726
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- OK.
- Now I have two nominations as to what sub-etc-issue to address next: 1) my perceived evidence for Shroud authenticity, and 2) my perceived evidence against the carbon dating. Any more votes for one of these? Or, any votes for something else?
--- Jabba
OK.

Calm down. OK.

You do not want to know, at this point, what I really want to say. It would violate the MA, and be deeply offensive to you. So I shall internalise that, not because I care if you are offended, but because this forum is more important to me than you are.

I have lost count of how many times I have said "Really? I didn't know that" and, I hope, I have thrown my own knowledge into the ring helping others understand the world around them.

I have posted the phrase "I stand corrected" often, and I do stand corrected. And I have no issue with being corrected.

That said, why why why? Still with the lame claim that you might present some evidence? Sometime? Maybe? Or will you persist with the claim that you have the evidence, you are just going to present it......soon.

Votes? Reality is not a democracy. Reality does not care what you believe. You cannot vote that there is no gravity.
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Old 22nd October 2012, 07:14 AM   #3727
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Now I have two nominations as to what sub-etc-issue to address next: 1) my perceived evidence for Shroud authenticity, and 2) my perceived evidence against the carbon dating. Any more votes for one of these? Or, any votes for something else? ...
I'll go for the second option.
Remember to link your sources of information, please!
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Old 22nd October 2012, 07:40 AM   #3728
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- OK.
- Now I have two nominations as to what sub-etc-issue to address next: 1) my perceived evidence for Shroud authenticity, and 2) my perceived evidence against the carbon dating. Any more votes for one of these? Or, any votes for something else?
--- Jabba
Do you have anything in 2) other than "Mme. F-L must have made a mistake"; there's an invisible, undetectable, perfectly-matched patch of exactly the tight age to make a first-century artifact read medieval; or some claim of contamination/irradiation/bioplastic? In other words, do you have evidence that disproves, or even casts an actual shadow of doubt upon, the 14C dating that has not already been dealt with ad infinitum?

Because, if so, I'd love to hear it, although I might ask why you waited until now to show your cards.

If not, that is, if you cannot disprove the 14C dating, 1) is just fantasy.

As we have been saying, all along: if the 14C dating is correct, the cloth is a medieval artifact. If the cloth is a medieval artifact, is cannot be the Real Shroud ™.

Time, and past time, to show us what you have.
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Old 22nd October 2012, 07:59 AM   #3729
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Excuses

Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
Jabba,
I suspect I am like you in that I do wish it really was Jesus’ burial cloth, just because it would be some corroboration of the bible. I am, however, willing to accept that it is not. The thing is, provable science trumps unverifiable beliefs, no matter how much one wishes it didn’t. The only thing I can say is it would have been a more robust scientific experiment had they abided by the original design of taking the samples from different areas of the cloth. According to IanS, the scientists believed it would be statistically safer to take multiple samples from different areas of the cloth. I agree with this. Just because it was the religious officials who did not allow this does not nullify the fact that it would have been less refutable had they done it that way. But even with all that said, you can't ignore the C14 results.
Ampulla,

- I basically agree with you.

- I accept that there is significant evidence and arguments against Shroud authenticity (especially with the carbon dating), and I wouldn't be too surprised to ultimately conclude that the Shroud is not authentic. In fact, my opinion has been swayed somewhat -- against the Shroud -- by my time on this thread...
- I also accept that I am biased in favor of the Shroud -- I want it to be authentic -- and consequently, can't fully trust my own opinion.
- In addition, I accept that I haven't done a very good job of presenting my case for authenticity.
- However, so far, I do still believe that the overall scientific and historical evidence does support Shroud authenticity -- it's just that the situations in my life, and in this thread, have prevented me from achieving any sort of timeliness in presenting my case.

- And then, I can't understand why no one here appreciates the complexity of such a debate and the natural extreme difficulty in trying to respond to so many questions and comments from about 60 opponents -- even if I do, ultimately, have good answers...
- I'll try to find previous posts of my excuses. But, one basic problem is that for each response I give, I tend to get back several rebuttals (of one sort or another) -- mathematically speaking, this is a no-win situation. Obviously, there is a lot of redundancy in these rebuttals, but there is also a lot of different rebuttals, and there's no way that I can respond to a reasonable percentage of them in a timely manner. Exponential armies are assaulting my bulwarks on every front (not to be overly dramatic ).
- And Then, I 1) am pretty old (70) -- with typical complaints about my memory, 2) tended to be slow anyway, 3) haven't kept a good catalog of appropriate links and 4) started my efforts with a small team of real authenticity experts who, unfortunately, have found more pressing matters that required their attention.
- One other "excuse" for now: I have two horses in this race. If my pro-authenticity horse loses to the con-authenticity horse, my effective-debate horse "places." Consequently, I'm actually not as intent on winning as I would be in a typical debate...

- Enough for now. I need to get on with my next sub-etc-issue.

--- Jabba
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Old 22nd October 2012, 08:04 AM   #3730
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Ampulla,

- I basically agree with you.

- I accept that there is significant evidence and arguments against Shroud authenticity (especially with the carbon dating), and I wouldn't be too surprised to ultimately conclude that the Shroud is not authentic. In fact, my opinion has been swayed somewhat -- against the Shroud -- by my time on this thread...
- I also accept that I am biased in favor of the Shroud -- I want it to be authentic -- and consequently, can't fully trust my own opinion.
- In addition, I accept that I haven't done a very good job of presenting my case for authenticity.
- However, so far, I do still believe that the overall scientific and historical evidence does support Shroud authenticity -- it's just that the situations in my life, and in this thread, have prevented me from achieving any sort of timeliness in presenting my case.

- And then, I can't understand why no one here appreciates the complexity of such a debate and the natural extreme difficulty in trying to respond to so many questions and comments from about 60 opponents -- even if I do, ultimately, have good answers...
- I'll try to find previous posts of my excuses. But, one basic problem is that for each response I give, I tend to get back several rebuttals (of one sort or another) -- mathematically speaking, this is a no-win situation. Obviously, there is a lot of redundancy in these rebuttals, but there is also a lot of different rebuttals, and there's no way that I can respond to a reasonable percentage of them in a timely manner. Exponential armies are assaulting my bulwarks on every front (not to be overly dramatic ).
- And Then, I 1) am pretty old (70) -- with typical complaints about my memory, 2) tended to be slow anyway, 3) haven't kept a good catalog of appropriate links and 4) started my efforts with a small team of real authenticity experts who, unfortunately, have found more pressing matters that required their attention.
- One other "excuse" for now: I have two horses in this race. If my pro-authenticity horse loses to the con-authenticity horse, my effective-debate horse "places." Consequently, I'm actually not as intent on winning as I would be in a typical debate...

- Enough for now. I need to get on with my next sub-etc-issue.

--- Jabba
Why spend time making excuses, and looking for your old excuses?

Why not just present your evidence?
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Old 22nd October 2012, 08:04 AM   #3731
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Carbon Dating

- OK. Back to the carbon dating.
--- Jabba
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Old 22nd October 2012, 08:08 AM   #3732
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Vexcuses

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post

<snip>

- Enough for now. I need to get on with my next sub-etc-issue.

--- Jabba


There is one issue.

The C14 dating has shown the shroud to be an artefact of the Middle Ages.

Either you have evidence which will cast doubt on that analysis or you don't.

It's no more complicated than that.
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Old 22nd October 2012, 08:28 AM   #3733
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Jabba, I have been harsh lately in my posts. For this one, however, I will assume you are legitimately seeking the truth, even if blinded with bias. From that assumption I feel compelled to make two points:

1. You are out of your depth. You have engaged in an argument requiring a level of knowledge you do not possess and have shown no inclination to obtain. Even if your position were correct you could not demonstrate it.

2. Your pro-authenticity experts have failed to support you because they are incapable of it. Were they truly experts with legitimate responses to what has been said here they would have it easily at hand. They do not, and they know it. They simply do not want to admit it either to us or to you.

You cannot win, Jabba, primarily because the evidence is overwhelmingly against you (as your experts know) but also because you are not up to the task of presenting it let alone discussing it.
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Old 22nd October 2012, 08:30 AM   #3734
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Originally Posted by azzthom View Post
Yes indeed. Josephus' description is in the Slavonic edition of 'The Capture of Jerusalem'. You can find a summary here:- http://www.jesuspolice.com/common_error.php?id=13

It also includes other descriptions I had forgotten about, and quotes Tertullian.
Come off it! You think the Slavonic Josephus contains a description of Jesus derived from the pen of Flavius Josephus? Eh?
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Old 22nd October 2012, 10:01 AM   #3735
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
Jabba, I have been harsh lately in my posts. For this one, however, I will assume you are legitimately seeking the truth, even if blinded with bias. From that assumption I feel compelled to make two points:

1. You are out of your depth. You have engaged in an argument requiring a level of knowledge you do not possess and have shown no inclination to obtain. Even if your position were correct you could not demonstrate it.
I second this. There are probably at least a half dozen posters participating in this thread that could make a better case for authenticity than Jabba has, because they actually understand the problem so much more and know a lot more about the science that is behind it all.
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Old 22nd October 2012, 10:42 AM   #3736
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
....
- However, so far, I do still believe that the overall scientific and historical evidence does support Shroud authenticity -- it's just that the situations in my life, and in this thread, have prevented me from achieving any sort of timeliness in presenting my case. ...
When have you ever simply presented this scientific and historical evidence?
With proper links, of course.
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Old 22nd October 2012, 02:50 PM   #3737
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I want it to be authentic
And so we discover the heart of darkness.

WHY?

Why do you want it to be true?

It has been pointed out to you that the 1st century authenticity or not of the shroud means nothing with regard to any religious belief of any flavour, so why?

Why exactly is it important?

Why would it matter at all if it were proven to be from the end of a toilet roll in a remote McDonalds from last week, or a levitating sheet used to wrap a levitating corpse from 2000 years ago, or a miraculously preserved part of a comic written 65 million years ago by a T-Rex?

Why would this affect anyones faith?
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Old 22nd October 2012, 06:33 PM   #3738
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Originally Posted by Jabba
- However, so far, I do still believe that the overall scientific and historical evidence does support Shroud authenticity -- it's just that the situations in my life, and in this thread, have prevented me from achieving any sort of timeliness in presenting my case.
You keep saying this, but EVERY SINGLE POINT YOU HAVE RAISED has been completely disproven. Not just shown to be kind of wrong, but in several cases it's been shown that you have NO CLUE what you're talking about--in one case you've demonstrated less than a high school graduate level of understanding of what you're talking about.

So you don't understand the arguments against authenticity, and you haven't presented any valid reasons to oppose it. There's NOTHING to convince us that you are right. Even if we agreed with you, logic would demand we oppose you.

Quote:
- And then, I can't understand why no one here appreciates the complexity of such a debate
~sigh~

Jabba, I'm a scientist. I've been in these debates. I've been in more complex debates, too--debates where there is actual data supporting both sides. Others have, as well, but I can only speak for my own experiences. We have explained to you so many times that it's become rediculous: This is a SCIENTIFIC debate, and your "complexity" amounts to nothing more than evading that simple fact. This is really a simple debate: we examine the data, and reach a conclusion. It's only complex because you've inverted that order.

Quote:
and the natural extreme difficulty in trying to respond to so many questions and comments from about 60 opponents -- even if I do, ultimately, have good answers...
Since you've yet to provide ANY good answers (meaning answers backed up by data), that last line is irrelevant. As for the first, we DO grasp that it's difficult to respond to a few dozen opponents. We simply don't care, because it's an irrelevant excuse. Every single one of your opponents would be satisfied if you would focus on the data rather than attempting to force us to comply with an argument style YOU ADMITTED WAS DESIGNED TO BIAS THE DISCUSSION IN YOUR FAVOR. Do that, and we'll be content.

Quote:
But, one basic problem is that for each response I give, I tend to get back several rebuttals (of one sort or another) -- mathematically speaking, this is a no-win situation.
Oh boo freaking hoo. If you'd bother to address any of the points raised I might consider this a valid criticism (for about half a second--welcome to the real world, kid; this type of debate is food and drink to a scientist), but since you have yet to do so in this debate, it's irrelevant. Furthermore, you're focused on the number, not the content. Most of us have been saying over and over "Present the data". You ignore that, over and over and over.

Quote:
And Then, I 1) am pretty old (70) -- with typical complaints about my memory,
I once met a 90 year old Quaternary mammal paleontologist. She'd had her driver's license taken away, and walked to the university every day. She had her office next door to a 75 year old gentleman who spent his time analyzing microfossils. My advisor was 70. So yeah, this isn't much of an excuse to me.

Quote:
2) tended to be slow anyway,
It's been well over 30 pages since you've actually presented an argument that hadn't been discussed to death in this thread. The only way to go slower would be to actually travel back in time.

Quote:
3) haven't kept a good catalog of appropriate links
So you're a sloppy researcher. This is a SERIOUS blow to your credibility.

Quote:
4) started my efforts with a small team of real authenticity experts who, unfortunately, have found more pressing matters that required their attention.
Here you yet again illustrate the inherent dishonesty of your position: you have experts in arguing that the shroud is authentic. We, on the other hand, are examining the data honestly and following where it leads.

Quote:
- One other "excuse" for now: I have two horses in this race. If my pro-authenticity horse loses to the con-authenticity horse, my effective-debate horse "places." Consequently, I'm actually not as intent on winning as I would be in a typical debate...
Since you've admitted to defining "effective debate" as a debate which favores your side, this is a flat-out lie.

Originally Posted by pgwenthold
I second this. There are probably at least a half dozen posters participating in this thread that could make a better case for authenticity than Jabba has,
I'VE presented a better argument than Jabba did. At least disproving my pro-authenticity argument (that threads may be able to be twisted together) taught someone something (me, that you can't do that with plant fibers, at least not effectively). Again, for 30 pages or so Jabba's arguments haven't even done that.
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Old 22nd October 2012, 10:16 PM   #3739
Craig B
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
And so we discover the heart of darkness.

WHY?

Why do you want it to be true?

It has been pointed out to you that the 1st century authenticity or not of the shroud means nothing with regard to any religious belief of any flavour, so why?

Why exactly is it important? ...

Why would this affect anyones faith?
Yes, Jabba, please answer that. The Church withdrew its recognition of the Holy Foreskin of Jesus contained in a church in Calcata, Lazio. That didn't shatter anyone's faith. If anything it strengthened the faith of any sane adherent. Why should a repudiation of the Shroud have a different effect? You "want" the Shroud to be authentic. Do you "want" the miraculous liquefying blood of San Gennaro to be authentic? If so, why?

Last edited by Craig B; 22nd October 2012 at 10:17 PM. Reason: Typo.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 12:07 AM   #3740
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^
Ah, yes, the liquifying blood miracle.
In Madrid there's a monastery a stone's throw from the Senate that's cashed in for years and years on a vial of the 'blood' of St Pantaleon.
This last July,
Quote:
Two large television screens were set up outside the monastery to give the thousands of Catholics gathered a close-up view of the miraculous liquefaction.
http://ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/World.php?id=3683

ETA
A second source of information:
Quote:

In addition to housing sculptures of notoriety, such as the Bound Christ figure and the Prostrate Christ by Gregorio Fernandez, or La Dolorosa de José de Mora, the Encarnacion monastery is worth visiting for its astonishing reliquary. Made up of a collection of more than 700 pieces, all of the walls inside are lined with the glass cases protecting them. Inside are stone and precious metal coffers, as well as small chests made of coral, ivory, wood, gold, silver, marble...all of which contain the bones and blood of the most worshipped and praiseworthy saints.

Standing out among these is the glass holding the blood of San Pantaleon, a medical doctor who died in martyrdom in 405 ac. Every 27th of July, the monastery opens its doors to the public so that they may be witness to the awaited miracle.

While its is said to be in a solid state all year round, the blood of the saint liquefies "miraculously" and with no human intercession on the day of his martyrdom. The nuns who take care of this reliquary say that it is a "gift from God" and that the year that such liquefaction doesn't happen as due, it will be the sign of a looming tragedy, as happened previous to both world wars. To preserve the precious object, the nuns had cameras installed which watch over the glass and magnify it ten times.
http://www.esmadrid.com/en/portal.do?TR=C&IDR=474

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Old 23rd October 2012, 01:12 AM   #3741
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
^
Ah, yes, the liquifying blood miracle.
I call that the ferous oxyde miracle.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 08:35 AM   #3742
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
In comparison to most sampling processes for analysis the sample taken from the shroud was removed under extremely stringent conditions with multiple witnesses and video recording. Plus there were additional control samples and a reasonable attempt to blind the process.
Regarding changes in the procedure for radiocarbon dating, these were made by Cardinal Ballestrero and his science adviser Professor Gonella.
I am unable to find any reference to a plan to remove three samples from the shroud, either in the SEP1986 or OCT1987 discussions. Perhaps you're confusing this with the control samples?
According to wiki:

Quote:
Among the most obvious differences between the final version of the protocol and the previous ones stands the decision to sample from a single location on the cloth.
Of course it will only take you a matter of time to find out the source of this quote and poo-poo it.

Never-the-less, it must have been what I had read. Or, as you state, it could be the control samples I was confused about.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 08:41 AM   #3743
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Ampulla, how could the TS, if dated to the first century, possibly be a corroboration of the bible?
What is your reasoning on that?
I officially withdraw that statement.

FWIW, I originally had written it would corroborate the existence of Jesus. I thought that through and decided I could never back that up so I switched it to corroborate the bible. I didn't think that one through at all though.

You guys are very good. One cannot slip anything by you.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 09:20 AM   #3744
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
I officially withdraw that statement.

FWIW, I originally had written it would corroborate the existence of Jesus. I thought that through and decided I could never back that up so I switched it to corroborate the bible. I didn't think that one through at all though.

...
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Old 23rd October 2012, 09:22 AM   #3745
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
<snip>
Jabba, I'm a scientist. I've been in these debates. I've been in more complex debates, too--debates where there is actual data supporting both sides. Others have, as well, but I can only speak for my own experiences. We have explained to you so many times that it's become rediculous: This is a SCIENTIFIC debate, and your "complexity" amounts to nothing more than evading that simple fact. This is really a simple debate: we examine the data, and reach a conclusion.
<snip>

I suspect THIS is why it takes so long for Jabba. IMO, the first hundred posts one makes on this forum is when you learn you cannot simply assert a claim you cannot back up. In the next hundred posts one learns your sources had better be reliable and able to withstand scrutiny.

This is easier accomplished by those of you who are scientists or otherwise possess expertise in the subject matter. For the rest of us (most likely those of us with just a few hundred posts) it is time-consuming and daunting. Personally, I can spend several days non-stop researching a subject before making a single post. Don't get me wrong though, I love doing it and I enjoy the learning process immensely. In fact, reading this JREF forum has significantly changed the way I think and speak about pretty much everything in my life. But participating in a thread sucks up a ton of time, which is often hard to come by.

Now, back to the shroud...

What do you think about the possibility of the C14 date being altered due to the water poured onto the cloth as a result of the fire? Does water have the capability of affecting a C14 date? Has anyone ever tested this hypothesis?
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Old 23rd October 2012, 09:51 AM   #3746
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- OK. Back to the carbon dating.
--- Jabba
That's it?

That's your entire post?

"Back to the carbon dating" where we all await any meaningful statement, opinion, evidence, anything at all?

Agog at the thought of some C14 killer blow, we await that one liner demolition of the C14 case and that is what you post?

And for Ampulla. You have somewhat of a Hobson's choice.

You can either read the entire thread start to finish, in order to understand why exactly we are all browned off with such circularity that new mathematics is being invented to describe the extra dimensions such circularity requires, or you can accept that a little snippiness exists in this thread due to aforementioned circularity.

None of it is your doing. Seems to me that you are being perfectly reasonable, and reading the whole saga would likely have you attacking your monitor with an axe. Not something I would recommend.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 12:13 PM   #3747
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
I call that the ferous oxyde miracle.
here's what happened in Naples when the nature of the 'miracle' was explained:
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/1225...cles-debunking

Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
I officially withdraw that statement.

FWIW, I originally had written it would corroborate the existence of Jesus. I thought that through and decided I could never back that up so I switched it to corroborate the bible. I didn't think that one through at all though.

You guys are very good. One cannot slip anything by you.
Very good?
I don't think so.
Just trying to follow what the available evidence actually says, not what one would want it to say. We're lucky to have a number of extremely knowledgeable posters here, so more than trying to dodge them or slip anything past them, why not learn from them?

Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
...What do you think about the possibility of the C14 date being altered due to the water poured onto the cloth as a result of the fire? Does water have the capability of affecting a C14 date? Has anyone ever tested this hypothesis?
Let's turn this question around.
What do YOU think about that possibility?
Have you researched it even to the extent of a google search?
Let us know what you find!
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Old 23rd October 2012, 12:44 PM   #3748
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I like this statement from the Naples link:

Quote:
The trouble with scientists is that when they cannot find an explanation they invent one.
Besides the explanation not being "invented," it would be heartening to have the believers look at it the other way:

The problem with believers is that when they are given an explanation they ignore it.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 12:45 PM   #3749
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Let's turn this question around.
What do YOU think about that possibility?
Have you researched it even to the extent of a google search?
Let us know what you find!
Best response possible. Wish I'd thought of it.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 01:19 PM   #3750
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I'll be interested in seeing what Ampulla comes up with.

And yes, the liquefying blood 'miracle' is astonishing in its continued popularity even today.
Given the indisputable fact the Vatican tolerates this sort of chicanery, it's really quite surprising they agreed to shell out the money for not one, but three different labs to run the C14 testing on the shroud.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 01:34 PM   #3751
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
I'll be interested in seeing what Ampulla comes up with.

And yes, the liquefying blood 'miracle' is astonishing in its continued popularity even today.
Given the indisputable fact the Vatican tolerates this sort of chicanery, it's really quite surprising they agreed to shell out the money for not one, but three different labs to run the C14 testing on the shroud.
I got a feeling that it was partially due to the fact they already had rejected authenticity in the past, partially because they anyway see the relic as troublesome but are bound to accept it (because baseline cathos like them --- the hierarchy not so much) but saw an impartial way to shift the blame on non-authenticity on somebody else (hey the scientist said it was not authentic, don't look at us) and it was an iconic relic. I doubt that it was because they suddenly had science at heart, i am willing to bet my last shirt that it was more a question on how to torpedoe the "rival" without outing oneself.

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Old 23rd October 2012, 02:02 PM   #3752
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That sounds plausible enough, Aepervius.
A classic finesse.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 09:13 PM   #3753
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
I suspect THIS is why it takes so long for Jabba. IMO, the first hundred posts one makes on this forum is when you learn you cannot simply assert a claim you cannot back up. In the next hundred posts one learns your sources had better be reliable and able to withstand scrutiny.

This is easier accomplished by those of you who are scientists or otherwise possess expertise in the subject matter. For the rest of us (most likely those of us with just a few hundred posts) it is time-consuming and daunting. Personally, I can spend several days non-stop researching a subject before making a single post.
Normally a good point, but Jabba himself has stated he has put in over twenty years of research into the shroud of Turin. For all of his floundering in this thread, I am now thinking that by 'twenty years of research', Jabba means, 'I read an article twenty years ago and hang out with guys who think exactly like I do about the shroud.'
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Old 23rd October 2012, 11:03 PM   #3754
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Not to mention his threads on the subject at the Atheists' Forum.

http://debate.atheist.net/showthread...hroud+of+Turin

http://debate.atheist.net/showthread...hroud+of+Turin

http://debate.atheist.net/showthread...ighlight=Turin


http://debate.atheist.net/showthread.php?t=4469
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Old 23rd October 2012, 11:11 PM   #3755
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Not to mention his threads on the subject at the Atheists' Forum.

http://debate.atheist.net/showthread...hroud+of+Turin
I just love this one as a reason for why the shroud is supernatural:
Quote:
6. The shroud is 700 years old -- at the very least.
So, the science is accurate enough to indicate a minimum age, even if it is apparently out by 1300 years...
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Old 24th October 2012, 12:42 AM   #3756
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Sub-sub-subarines/Floating down the stream

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- OK. Back to the carbon dating.
--- Jabba
That's it?

That's your entire post?

"Back to the carbon dating" where we all await any meaningful statement, opinion, evidence, anything at all?

Agog at the thought of some C14 killer blow, we await that one liner demolition of the C14 case and that is what you post?


I'm sure this sort of rubbish is part of the greater "effective debate" nonsense.

Jabba likes to pretend that we're reaching these points of consensus as though we were all working together happily in pursuit of the truth, the difficulty, of course, being that the need to either present data which casts doubt on the C14 dating or admit that no such data exists is the only point on which both "sides" have ever agreed.

Although to say Jabba agrees is probably being overly generous since he appears only to acknowledge the importance of the carbon dating issue but never actually addresses it.
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Old 24th October 2012, 12:43 AM   #3757
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Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily/Where's the C14?

Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
What do you think about the possibility of the C14 date being altered due to the water poured onto the cloth as a result of the fire?


Without water having been poured on the cloth to stop it from being on fire the C14 date would have been altered to "non-existant".


Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
Does water have the capability of affecting a C14 date?


I'll bet this question appears on Jabba's list of sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub issues before we're done.


Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
Has anyone ever tested this hypothesis?


You'd think someone would have. I'm looking forward, as are the others, to what you can discover about this.
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Old 24th October 2012, 02:24 AM   #3758
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Quite revealing. Two years have passed since then, and Jabba continues to attempt the same fallacious courtroom style debate, to demonstrate the same inability to reference basic sources, to fail to use simple paragraphs, to talk about what he will talk about without talking about it, and to show that he neither reads nor attempts to understand counter arguments.
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Old 24th October 2012, 03:20 AM   #3759
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Ward,

- Thanks.
- I always want to win.
*snip*
--- Jabba
Then I would recommend you to not play on loosing propositions.

Hans
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Old 24th October 2012, 03:31 AM   #3760
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Blue,

- For the moment, at least, invisible re-weave and contamination seem to be ruled out... (I hardly ever give up entirely. But then, what's important here (to me) is the effect that our confrontation is having upon a theoretical neutral audience -- not on whether or not one of us concedes.)
Assuming that you want to win over the neutrals, you are doing an exceedingly bad job. Any neutral will long ago have reached the conclusion that you don't have a clue.

- I know I have, and, perhaps to your surprise, I'm actually more or less neutral: I did not, a' priory, know or care much about the shoud. However, following these debates, and participating a bit, I have learned that it is, beyond any reasonable doubt, a fake.

Quote:
- Unless you guys have another preference as to the next sub-etc-issue for discussion, I'll next look into the alternative of some sort of irradiation or scorch causing the 14th century dating.
I don't really think anybody cares much what your next hand-wave will be. You have thorughly lost the discussion, and all that remains is a mild curiosity as to how long you will trash around in the wreckage of your cause before you either admit defeat or run away.

Hans
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