|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
22nd October 2012, 03:11 AM | #3721 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
Hmmm
I intended to post a speculative bit, but was unable to come up with a plausible narrative. No matter how you slice it, wild leaps of faith are required. So, agreed. Even if one were to establish the date of the shroud being 1st century, then what? I simply cannot invent a scenario where this means anything at all. Well, maybe just one. If you start with the assumption that the shroud is genuine, then it may be possible to work backwards, and retro-fit everything into your preconceived conclusion. Maybe. If you are prepared to accept levitating jebus corpse plus levitating shroud plus radioactive imprinting of an image plus nobody else wrapped a corpse in this fashion plus da bluuurrrrrd plus the unlikely anatomy plus the simple fact that I would pay good money for a front row seat if one could put jabba, doc, edge, mikeyx, epix and peacecrusader in the ring together. Why is it that they never debate each other? |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
22nd October 2012, 03:20 AM | #3722 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
|
|
__________________
Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
22nd October 2012, 03:23 AM | #3723 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,121
|
|
22nd October 2012, 06:10 AM | #3724 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,613
|
Game Plan
- OK.
- Now I have two nominations as to what sub-etc-issue to address next: 1) my perceived evidence for Shroud authenticity, and 2) my perceived evidence against the carbon dating. Any more votes for one of these? Or, any votes for something else? --- Jabba |
__________________
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
|
22nd October 2012, 06:25 AM | #3725 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
|
Pain Glam
|
__________________
Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
22nd October 2012, 06:32 AM | #3726 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
OK.
Calm down. OK. You do not want to know, at this point, what I really want to say. It would violate the MA, and be deeply offensive to you. So I shall internalise that, not because I care if you are offended, but because this forum is more important to me than you are. I have lost count of how many times I have said "Really? I didn't know that" and, I hope, I have thrown my own knowledge into the ring helping others understand the world around them. I have posted the phrase "I stand corrected" often, and I do stand corrected. And I have no issue with being corrected. That said, why why why? Still with the lame claim that you might present some evidence? Sometime? Maybe? Or will you persist with the claim that you have the evidence, you are just going to present it......soon. Votes? Reality is not a democracy. Reality does not care what you believe. You cannot vote that there is no gravity. |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
22nd October 2012, 07:14 AM | #3727 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
|
|
22nd October 2012, 07:40 AM | #3728 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
Do you have anything in 2) other than "Mme. F-L must have made a mistake"; there's an invisible, undetectable, perfectly-matched patch of exactly the tight age to make a first-century artifact read medieval; or some claim of contamination/irradiation/bioplastic? In other words, do you have evidence that disproves, or even casts an actual shadow of doubt upon, the 14C dating that has not already been dealt with ad infinitum?
Because, if so, I'd love to hear it, although I might ask why you waited until now to show your cards. If not, that is, if you cannot disprove the 14C dating, 1) is just fantasy. As we have been saying, all along: if the 14C dating is correct, the cloth is a medieval artifact. If the cloth is a medieval artifact, is cannot be the Real Shroud ™. Time, and past time, to show us what you have. |
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
22nd October 2012, 07:59 AM | #3729 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,613
|
Excuses
Ampulla,
- I basically agree with you. - I accept that there is significant evidence and arguments against Shroud authenticity (especially with the carbon dating), and I wouldn't be too surprised to ultimately conclude that the Shroud is not authentic. In fact, my opinion has been swayed somewhat -- against the Shroud -- by my time on this thread... - I also accept that I am biased in favor of the Shroud -- I want it to be authentic -- and consequently, can't fully trust my own opinion. - In addition, I accept that I haven't done a very good job of presenting my case for authenticity. - However, so far, I do still believe that the overall scientific and historical evidence does support Shroud authenticity -- it's just that the situations in my life, and in this thread, have prevented me from achieving any sort of timeliness in presenting my case. - And then, I can't understand why no one here appreciates the complexity of such a debate and the natural extreme difficulty in trying to respond to so many questions and comments from about 60 opponents -- even if I do, ultimately, have good answers... - I'll try to find previous posts of my excuses. But, one basic problem is that for each response I give, I tend to get back several rebuttals (of one sort or another) -- mathematically speaking, this is a no-win situation. Obviously, there is a lot of redundancy in these rebuttals, but there is also a lot of different rebuttals, and there's no way that I can respond to a reasonable percentage of them in a timely manner. Exponential armies are assaulting my bulwarks on every front (not to be overly dramatic ). - And Then, I 1) am pretty old (70) -- with typical complaints about my memory, 2) tended to be slow anyway, 3) haven't kept a good catalog of appropriate links and 4) started my efforts with a small team of real authenticity experts who, unfortunately, have found more pressing matters that required their attention. - One other "excuse" for now: I have two horses in this race. If my pro-authenticity horse loses to the con-authenticity horse, my effective-debate horse "places." Consequently, I'm actually not as intent on winning as I would be in a typical debate... - Enough for now. I need to get on with my next sub-etc-issue. --- Jabba |
__________________
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
|
22nd October 2012, 08:04 AM | #3730 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
|
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
22nd October 2012, 08:04 AM | #3731 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,613
|
Carbon Dating
- OK. Back to the carbon dating.
--- Jabba |
__________________
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
|
22nd October 2012, 08:08 AM | #3732 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
|
Vexcuses
|
__________________
Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
22nd October 2012, 08:28 AM | #3733 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,768
|
Jabba, I have been harsh lately in my posts. For this one, however, I will assume you are legitimately seeking the truth, even if blinded with bias. From that assumption I feel compelled to make two points:
1. You are out of your depth. You have engaged in an argument requiring a level of knowledge you do not possess and have shown no inclination to obtain. Even if your position were correct you could not demonstrate it. 2. Your pro-authenticity experts have failed to support you because they are incapable of it. Were they truly experts with legitimate responses to what has been said here they would have it easily at hand. They do not, and they know it. They simply do not want to admit it either to us or to you. You cannot win, Jabba, primarily because the evidence is overwhelmingly against you (as your experts know) but also because you are not up to the task of presenting it let alone discussing it. |
__________________
My kids still love me. |
|
22nd October 2012, 08:30 AM | #3734 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,841
|
|
22nd October 2012, 10:01 AM | #3735 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 21,398
|
I second this. There are probably at least a half dozen posters participating in this thread that could make a better case for authenticity than Jabba has, because they actually understand the problem so much more and know a lot more about the science that is behind it all.
|
__________________
Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
|
22nd October 2012, 10:42 AM | #3736 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
|
|
22nd October 2012, 02:50 PM | #3737 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
And so we discover the heart of darkness.
WHY? Why do you want it to be true? It has been pointed out to you that the 1st century authenticity or not of the shroud means nothing with regard to any religious belief of any flavour, so why? Why exactly is it important? Why would it matter at all if it were proven to be from the end of a toilet roll in a remote McDonalds from last week, or a levitating sheet used to wrap a levitating corpse from 2000 years ago, or a miraculously preserved part of a comic written 65 million years ago by a T-Rex? Why would this affect anyones faith? |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
22nd October 2012, 06:33 PM | #3738 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 16,668
|
Originally Posted by Jabba
So you don't understand the arguments against authenticity, and you haven't presented any valid reasons to oppose it. There's NOTHING to convince us that you are right. Even if we agreed with you, logic would demand we oppose you.
Quote:
Jabba, I'm a scientist. I've been in these debates. I've been in more complex debates, too--debates where there is actual data supporting both sides. Others have, as well, but I can only speak for my own experiences. We have explained to you so many times that it's become rediculous: This is a SCIENTIFIC debate, and your "complexity" amounts to nothing more than evading that simple fact. This is really a simple debate: we examine the data, and reach a conclusion. It's only complex because you've inverted that order.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgwenthold
|
22nd October 2012, 10:16 PM | #3739 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,841
|
Yes, Jabba, please answer that. The Church withdrew its recognition of the Holy Foreskin of Jesus contained in a church in Calcata, Lazio. That didn't shatter anyone's faith. If anything it strengthened the faith of any sane adherent. Why should a repudiation of the Shroud have a different effect? You "want" the Shroud to be authentic. Do you "want" the miraculous liquefying blood of San Gennaro to be authentic? If so, why?
|
23rd October 2012, 12:07 AM | #3740 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
|
^
Ah, yes, the liquifying blood miracle. In Madrid there's a monastery a stone's throw from the Senate that's cashed in for years and years on a vial of the 'blood' of St Pantaleon. This last July,
Quote:
ETA A second source of information:
Quote:
|
23rd October 2012, 01:12 AM | #3741 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
Posts: 14,571
|
|
23rd October 2012, 08:35 AM | #3742 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: North of the White Line of Toldt
Posts: 3,141
|
|
23rd October 2012, 08:41 AM | #3743 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: North of the White Line of Toldt
Posts: 3,141
|
I officially withdraw that statement.
FWIW, I originally had written it would corroborate the existence of Jesus. I thought that through and decided I could never back that up so I switched it to corroborate the bible. I didn't think that one through at all though. You guys are very good. One cannot slip anything by you. |
23rd October 2012, 09:20 AM | #3744 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,290
|
|
23rd October 2012, 09:22 AM | #3745 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: North of the White Line of Toldt
Posts: 3,141
|
I suspect THIS is why it takes so long for Jabba. IMO, the first hundred posts one makes on this forum is when you learn you cannot simply assert a claim you cannot back up. In the next hundred posts one learns your sources had better be reliable and able to withstand scrutiny. This is easier accomplished by those of you who are scientists or otherwise possess expertise in the subject matter. For the rest of us (most likely those of us with just a few hundred posts) it is time-consuming and daunting. Personally, I can spend several days non-stop researching a subject before making a single post. Don't get me wrong though, I love doing it and I enjoy the learning process immensely. In fact, reading this JREF forum has significantly changed the way I think and speak about pretty much everything in my life. But participating in a thread sucks up a ton of time, which is often hard to come by. Now, back to the shroud... What do you think about the possibility of the C14 date being altered due to the water poured onto the cloth as a result of the fire? Does water have the capability of affecting a C14 date? Has anyone ever tested this hypothesis? |
23rd October 2012, 09:51 AM | #3746 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
That's it?
That's your entire post? "Back to the carbon dating" where we all await any meaningful statement, opinion, evidence, anything at all? Agog at the thought of some C14 killer blow, we await that one liner demolition of the C14 case and that is what you post? And for Ampulla. You have somewhat of a Hobson's choice. You can either read the entire thread start to finish, in order to understand why exactly we are all browned off with such circularity that new mathematics is being invented to describe the extra dimensions such circularity requires, or you can accept that a little snippiness exists in this thread due to aforementioned circularity. None of it is your doing. Seems to me that you are being perfectly reasonable, and reading the whole saga would likely have you attacking your monitor with an axe. Not something I would recommend. |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
23rd October 2012, 12:13 PM | #3747 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
|
here's what happened in Naples when the nature of the 'miracle' was explained:
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/1225...cles-debunking Very good? I don't think so. Just trying to follow what the available evidence actually says, not what one would want it to say. We're lucky to have a number of extremely knowledgeable posters here, so more than trying to dodge them or slip anything past them, why not learn from them? Let's turn this question around. What do YOU think about that possibility? Have you researched it even to the extent of a google search? Let us know what you find! |
23rd October 2012, 12:44 PM | #3748 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,768
|
I like this statement from the Naples link:
Quote:
The problem with believers is that when they are given an explanation they ignore it. |
__________________
My kids still love me. |
|
23rd October 2012, 12:45 PM | #3749 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,768
|
|
__________________
My kids still love me. |
|
23rd October 2012, 01:19 PM | #3750 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
|
I'll be interested in seeing what Ampulla comes up with.
And yes, the liquefying blood 'miracle' is astonishing in its continued popularity even today. Given the indisputable fact the Vatican tolerates this sort of chicanery, it's really quite surprising they agreed to shell out the money for not one, but three different labs to run the C14 testing on the shroud. |
23rd October 2012, 01:34 PM | #3751 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
Posts: 14,571
|
I got a feeling that it was partially due to the fact they already had rejected authenticity in the past, partially because they anyway see the relic as troublesome but are bound to accept it (because baseline cathos like them --- the hierarchy not so much) but saw an impartial way to shift the blame on non-authenticity on somebody else (hey the scientist said it was not authentic, don't look at us) and it was an iconic relic. I doubt that it was because they suddenly had science at heart, i am willing to bet my last shirt that it was more a question on how to torpedoe the "rival" without outing oneself.
|
23rd October 2012, 02:02 PM | #3752 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
|
That sounds plausible enough, Aepervius.
A classic finesse. |
23rd October 2012, 09:13 PM | #3753 |
Meandering fecklessly
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,428
|
Normally a good point, but Jabba himself has stated he has put in over twenty years of research into the shroud of Turin. For all of his floundering in this thread, I am now thinking that by 'twenty years of research', Jabba means, 'I read an article twenty years ago and hang out with guys who think exactly like I do about the shroud.'
|
__________________
A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned. -Shepard Book |
|
23rd October 2012, 11:03 PM | #3754 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
|
Not to mention his threads on the subject at the Atheists' Forum.
http://debate.atheist.net/showthread...hroud+of+Turin http://debate.atheist.net/showthread...hroud+of+Turin http://debate.atheist.net/showthread...ighlight=Turin http://debate.atheist.net/showthread.php?t=4469 |
23rd October 2012, 11:11 PM | #3755 |
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 57,667
|
|
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
|
24th October 2012, 12:42 AM | #3756 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
|
Sub-sub-subarines/Floating down the stream
I'm sure this sort of rubbish is part of the greater "effective debate" nonsense. Jabba likes to pretend that we're reaching these points of consensus as though we were all working together happily in pursuit of the truth, the difficulty, of course, being that the need to either present data which casts doubt on the C14 dating or admit that no such data exists is the only point on which both "sides" have ever agreed. Although to say Jabba agrees is probably being overly generous since he appears only to acknowledge the importance of the carbon dating issue but never actually addresses it. |
__________________
Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
24th October 2012, 12:43 AM | #3757 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
|
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily/Where's the C14?
Without water having been poured on the cloth to stop it from being on fire the C14 date would have been altered to "non-existant". I'll bet this question appears on Jabba's list of sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-sub issues before we're done. You'd think someone would have. I'm looking forward, as are the others, to what you can discover about this. |
__________________
Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
24th October 2012, 02:24 AM | #3758 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,768
|
Quite revealing. Two years have passed since then, and Jabba continues to attempt the same fallacious courtroom style debate, to demonstrate the same inability to reference basic sources, to fail to use simple paragraphs, to talk about what he will talk about without talking about it, and to show that he neither reads nor attempts to understand counter arguments.
|
__________________
My kids still love me. |
|
24th October 2012, 03:20 AM | #3759 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 24,894
|
|
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills. |
|
24th October 2012, 03:31 AM | #3760 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 24,894
|
Assuming that you want to win over the neutrals, you are doing an exceedingly bad job. Any neutral will long ago have reached the conclusion that you don't have a clue.
- I know I have, and, perhaps to your surprise, I'm actually more or less neutral: I did not, a' priory, know or care much about the shoud. However, following these debates, and participating a bit, I have learned that it is, beyond any reasonable doubt, a fake.
Quote:
Hans |
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills. |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|