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Old 24th October 2012, 03:49 AM   #3761
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
According to wiki:



Of course it will only take you a matter of time to find out the source of this quote and poo-poo it.

Never-the-less, it must have been what I had read. Or, as you state, it could be the control samples I was confused about.
I assume your source is this page (as you didn't link to it).

Firstly I do not consider wiki to be a valid source for anything even remotely controversial, especially the shroud. Secondly the cited "source" for the alleged difference is............................Benford and Marino.

Now if one goes to more reputable and reliable sources (e.g. Nature) one can find a significant amount of discussion about the various testing protocols.
For example:
P. R. Smith: Dating the Shroud: Nature 328 p196.
M. Tite and Gove: Turin Shroud: Nature 327 p456.
D. Dutton: Protocols for Turin Shroud: Nature 331 p108
D. Dutton: The Shroud of Turin: Nature 332 p300

These cover the various iterations of the testing protocol from the STURP protocol of 1985, the Trondheim protocol (also 1985), the proposals from the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Ballestrero's intervention et cetera.

In none of these am I able to find any reference to taking three samples from the shroud cloth; there are references to using additional control samples, from material of known origin, for comparison and this was done.
Even Gove, who was heavily critical of the changes to the process, does not mention this change is his list of seven differences.

If you have a reliable source that suggests that it was intended that multiple samples were to be taken from the shroud for radiocarbon analysis please provide it.
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Old 24th October 2012, 04:26 AM   #3762
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
Just because it was the religious officials who did not allow this does not nullify the fact that it would have been less refutable had they done it that way. But even with all that said, you can't ignore the C14 results.

Well I did explain that, saying - as it turned out, the 3 labs and one strip of cloth were sufficient anyway, because of the very high level of agreement between the results independently obtained by each lab.

If you want to counter that by saying that one sample area was not sufficient on the basis that we now have people like Rogers, Benford and Marino selling commercial books claiming that the sample was from an invisible patch, then you just walk straight into the problem of actually having zero evidence of any such patch (whereas all known evidence from long before the C14, says that same area had never been patched). So you are left only with an unsupported claim from well-known shroud believers, but actually all known evidence being to the contrary.

And of course, the other obvious point is that, because it was the religious believers themselves who were insisting that the tests were only done in a way such that they hoped the results could always be open to some realistic doubt. So that criticism really must be laid at the door of the religious believers. Except that, as I say - in the event, that criticism does not apply either, because as the C14 labs had always suspected, the accuracy of the final results rendered that "criticism" irrelevent anyway.
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Old 24th October 2012, 04:31 AM   #3763
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Maybe the shroud was patched with the skin of Sagan's Dragon.
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Old 24th October 2012, 04:35 AM   #3764
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Originally Posted by Recovering Agnostic View Post
Maybe the shroud was patched with the skin of Sagan's Dragon.
Was that old or new dragon skin?
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Old 24th October 2012, 05:01 AM   #3765
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Originally Posted by Acleron View Post
Was that old or new dragon skin?
Dunno. A lab's lined up to test the hypothesis, but they're still trying to find the dragon.
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Old 24th October 2012, 05:21 AM   #3766
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
What do you think about the possibility of the C14 date being altered due to the water poured onto the cloth as a result of the fire? Does water have the capability of affecting a C14 date? Has anyone ever tested this hypothesis?
C14 measures the isotope composition of the carbon in the material. Since carbon is not water soluble, and water does not contain carbon, it cannot affect the result. It is entirely posstible to obtain a reliable C14 dating on samples that have been submerged in water for centuries.

So, no. There is no plausibility to that hypothesis.

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Old 24th October 2012, 06:08 AM   #3767
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Originally Posted by Recovering Agnostic View Post
Dunno. A lab's lined up to test the hypothesis, but they're still trying to find the dragon.
...I don't see that happening...
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Old 24th October 2012, 06:13 AM   #3768
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
...I don't see that happening...
It's an invisible dragon....
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Old 24th October 2012, 06:21 AM   #3769
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
It's an invisible dragon....
I didn't see that coming...
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Old 24th October 2012, 06:31 AM   #3770
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Originally Posted by wollery View Post
I didn't see that coming...
Exactly.
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Old 24th October 2012, 07:19 AM   #3771
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Originally Posted by Recovering Agnostic View Post
Maybe the shroud was patched with the skin of Sagan's Dragon.
Maybe some people are smoking of the same stuff as Sagan did, but waaaay too much .
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Old 24th October 2012, 07:21 AM   #3772
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Now I'm not sure who's playing along and who thinks I might be serious on some level.

Sorry, it was just my whimsical way of observing that I've heard this sort of argument before. We've ended up with the hypothesis of a 14th Century patch which is made out of cloth of a completely different age from the original, but is nevertheless completely invisible and undetectable by any possible means. If you tested another part of the shroud, you'd no doubt be astonished to find that that part also had an identical patch of the same age. In fact, given enough testing, you'd have to conclude that the shroud is all patch.

The shroudies' reaction to such a discovery would probably be to trumpet the news that as there was now no need to explain a hypothetical perfect splicing of threads of different ages, a major objection to their belief had been debunked.
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Old 24th October 2012, 07:32 AM   #3773
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I see what you mean.
When I have doubts about the seriousness of any given post here I go to the OP and go the gallery of photos of the images 'found' in the shroud.
It helps put things in perspective.

Anyway, speaking of perspective, here's Sue Benford writing about the shroud:
http://www.shroud.com/benford.htm
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Old 24th October 2012, 07:43 AM   #3774
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Originally Posted by Recovering Agnostic View Post
Now I'm not sure who's playing along and who thinks I might be serious on some level.

Sorry, it was just my whimsical way of observing that I've heard this sort of argument before. We've ended up with the hypothesis of a 14th Century patch which is made out of cloth of a completely different age from the original, but is nevertheless completely invisible and undetectable by any possible means. If you tested another part of the shroud, you'd no doubt be astonished to find that that part also had an identical patch of the same age. In fact, given enough testing, you'd have to conclude that the shroud is all patch.

The shroudies' reaction to such a discovery would probably be to trumpet the news that as there was now no need to explain a hypothetical perfect splicing of threads of different ages, a major objection to their belief had been debunked.
For me, the two are always very close to each other, divided by a fine and crenellated line. Invisible, undetectable dragon skin from an invisible, undetectable dragon would arguably make an invisible, undetectable patch--just like the one that isn't in the corner of the cloth. Never mind the problem of splicing IUDS onto medieval linen.
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Old 24th October 2012, 08:56 AM   #3775
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I have the feeling that would be child's' play for Sue Benford, who's on record as having written:
Quote:
It is therefore postulated here that bioenergy healers are creating permutations in the Vacuum or zero-point field (ZPF) via torsion fields, which, in turn, change the characteristics of the source mass m (see Figure 1). For this discussion, the Vacuum/ZPF is being defined as "the locus of a vast energy field that is neither classically electromagnetic nor gravitational, nor yet nuclear in nature. Instead, it is the originating source of the known electromagnetic, gravitational, and nuclear forces and fields. It is the originating source of matter itself."
http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/a...2/benford.html
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Old 24th October 2012, 02:48 PM   #3776
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Hmmm

I intended to post a speculative bit, but was unable to come up with a plausible narrative. No matter how you slice it, wild leaps of faith are required.

So, agreed. Even if one were to establish the date of the shroud being 1st century, then what? I simply cannot invent a scenario where this means anything at all.

Well, maybe just one.

If you start with the assumption that the shroud is genuine, then it may be possible to work backwards, and retro-fit everything into your preconceived conclusion. Maybe. If you are prepared to accept levitating jebus corpse plus levitating shroud plus radioactive imprinting of an image plus nobody else wrapped a corpse in this fashion plus da bluuurrrrrd plus the unlikely anatomy plus the simple fact that I would pay good money for a front row seat if one could put jabba, doc, edge, mikeyx, epix and peacecrusader in the ring together. Why is it that they never debate each other?
Me from 21st October 2012, 09:56 PM
Quote:
What I find funny is that seldom do posters like PC, jabba, DOC, Edge. Paul Bethke (?), or all the religious birds on that Canadian coin cross post. It is surely obvious that no one here (mega plural) will be swayed by fallacious arguments, but many of these threads are blasphemy and heretical to other believers.

Why isn't DOC here to tell PC that he is full of BS?

Upon thinking it over, I believe they all read each others posts,facepalm themselves, shake their head, and think, "How can anyone believe this nonsense?!"

If, by some divine act of providence (wink wink), they all posted in the same tread, could we have that thread locked? Would they be trapped there? Pleeeease?
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Old 24th October 2012, 03:00 PM   #3777
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Here's a new one:

14. There are reasons to believe that the shroud was actually the table cloth used for the Last Supper.



I hope they washed it first otherwise we got wine stains and food crumbs mixing in with the savior.
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Old 24th October 2012, 09:24 PM   #3778
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Here's a new one:

14. There are reasons to believe that the shroud was actually the table cloth used for the Last Supper.



I hope they washed it first otherwise we got wine stains and food crumbs mixing in with the savior.
The wine and food at the Last Supper were the Savior.

Ward
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Old 24th October 2012, 11:59 PM   #3779
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Here's a new one:

14. There are reasons to believe that the shroud was actually the table cloth used for the Last Supper.
...
Interestingly enough, there IS actually a 1st century shroud, found in a sealed tomb in Jerusalem.
And dated by the C14 process, too.
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Old 25th October 2012, 12:02 AM   #3780
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Interestingly enough, there IS actually a 1st century shroud, found in a sealed tomb in Jerusalem.
And dated by the C14 process, too.
And interrestingly , as you and other said, and it bears repeating, it looks *nothing* like the Turin Shroud.
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Old 25th October 2012, 12:15 AM   #3781
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Well, not a lot like anyway.
I can't recall off-hand which lab did the C14 testing.
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Old 25th October 2012, 12:30 AM   #3782
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Well, not a lot like anyway.
I can't recall off-hand which lab did the C14 testing.
As long it wasn't Rogers/Benford/Marinos lab (= pulling results out of their back orifice) it doesn't matter.
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Old 25th October 2012, 12:52 AM   #3783
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Roger's lab was his own kitchen and the Benford/Marino lab has more to do with quantum Voids, if I've understood Benford's writings.

Anyway, here's the NatGeo article:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...salem-leprosy/

It mentions the patch idea, amusingly enough.
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Old 25th October 2012, 01:12 AM   #3784
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Roger's lab was his own kitchen and the Benford/Marino lab has more to do with quantum Voids, if I've understood Benford's writings.


-After reading that quote you provided from the Journal of Theoretics I've concluded that the image on the SoT was obviously produced with an Amega Wand.
-Unless you guys come up with a better nomination as to what sub-etc-issue to address next, I'll put forward my best case for the existence of a 21st century artefact in a 14th Century French convent.
-I'll be back after breakfast
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Old 25th October 2012, 01:25 AM   #3785
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Here's more:
http://www.huji.ac.il/cgi-bin/dovrut...40517732688760

This is the final write up:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0008319

And here is the pro-authenticity proponents' reaction to the find and its reporting:
http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com...hroud-not.html
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Old 25th October 2012, 01:48 AM   #3786
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Found, found, found!

Quote:
I had the cloth dated at the University of Arizona C-14 lab. Douglas Donahue, the same scholar who tested the Shroud of Turin, dated our cloth–it came out 1st century CE, and made headlines around the world, see here and here. Although 1st century cloth has been found at Masada and in caves in the Judean Desert, nothing of this sort had ever been found in Jerusalem. Apparently that niche, sealed with a blocking stone, had a geological fissure that kept water from seeping in and rotting the material.
http://jamestabor.com/2012/07/

Now I can have my breakfast in peace.
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Old 25th October 2012, 02:09 AM   #3787
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While the omelette is cooling.
Quote:
...Danin and colleagues and others challenge the accuracy of the radiocarbon dating. "Three labs used the same sample from the dirtiest edge of the shroud that had been water-stained and scorched. This would produce a younger date," says Danin. The shroud may also bear biological contamination, some say. In 1993 two University of Texas at Austin microbiologists, Stephen Mattingly and Leoncio Garza-Valdes, described a "bioplastic layer" of modern bacteria and fungi within the linen fibers of the shroud, which could have thrown off the carbon-14 date.4

But the radiocarbon dating paper is impressive. A 10 x 70-mm piece from the shroud was cut from a region free of char, snipped in three and given to dating labs at the University of Arizona in Tucson, Oxford University, and the Institute fur Mittelenergiephysik in Zurich. Collaborators hailed from Columbia University and the British Museum. Controls were three samples of linen with known dates. "The region was chosen very carefully by textile experts to contain no material but shroud. The shroud is a woven piece, and one region of it is as representative of the whole as any other," explains Douglas Donahue, a professor of physics at the University of Arizona who was present at the April 21, 1988 sampling. Each lab subdivided the samples to test them repeatedly, and treated different pieces with different mechanical and chemical cleaning methods. Then each sample was examined microscopically to detect and remove contaminants.

The results date the shroud to 1260-1390 A.D., with 95 percent confidence. This corresponds to the period when the shroud's location was unknown, and is consistent with a 14th-century bishop's report that a forger had confessed.

Donahue defends the radiocarbon dating. Neither water nor burn marks would alter the date, he says, nor has Mattingly and Leoncio Garza-Valdes' "bioplastic theory" been published in a peer-reviewed journal. "The bacterial material they propose is invisible to normal human beings, including myself, is impervious to reasonable chemical treatments, and is made of only modern carbon. In order to change the radiocarbon age of the shroud from the 700 years, which we measured to 2,000 years, the shroud would need to consist of 60 percent of this bacterial substance." ...
http://www.the-scientist.com/?articl...ticleNo/19544/
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Old 25th October 2012, 03:17 AM   #3788
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Well, not a lot like anyway.
I can't recall off-hand which lab did the C14 testing.
It was tested at the AMS facility at the University of Arizona.
The Akeldama shroud was utterly unlike the Turin shroud; multiple pieces, typical materials (patchwork of simply woven linen and wool). Though to most archaeologists the shroud wasn't as interesting as the human remains founnd and the genetic analysis of them.
Of course the shroudies immediately got defensive at further evidence thei cloth is a fraud.

ETA: I should have read further in the thread.
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Old 25th October 2012, 03:33 AM   #3789
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Here's more:
http://www.huji.ac.il/cgi-bin/dovrut...40517732688760

This is the final write up:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0008319

And here is the pro-authenticity proponents' reaction to the find and its reporting:
http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com...hroud-not.html


I enjoyed the article from PLOS One immensely, and I can't help but think about the fascinating insights (into goings-on in the 14th century) that could be had if science was given full access to the SoT.

On the other hand, the nonsense from the bleevers is just more of the same old same old, although I have to admit that the press release from the Hebrew University played right into their hands with that silly "Burial shroud proves Turin Shroud not from 1st century C.E. Jerusalem" line.

I don't believe that's any more true than claiming that the finding of ancient Egyptian funerary boats proves that Noah's Ark is a myth, and such an august institution should have known better than to say a thing like that.
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Old 25th October 2012, 03:41 AM   #3790
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
It was tested at the AMS facility at the University of Arizona.
The Akeldama shroud was utterly unlike the Turin shroud; multiple pieces, typical materials (patchwork of simply woven linen and wool). Though to most archaeologists the shroud wasn't as interesting as the human remains founnd and the genetic analysis of them.
Of course the shroudies immediately got defensive at further evidence their cloth is a fraud.


Now those are the sort of words that Hebrew University should have used.

I wonder if they're looking for a new Press Officer.
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Old 25th October 2012, 03:49 AM   #3791
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O Pharaoh, your discernment is, as always, an example for us all.

I very nearly excised the silly uni media announcement, but thought it was interesting to see how media spins things out of shape, especially given that fact one can read the final write up immediately afterward.

At the time, the media jive came out a full four months before the PLOS One article and I daresay that amusing little shroudie thing is still considered the definitive rebuttal to that remarkable find.

I confess to being amused by the fact this real 1st century shroud was carbon-dated by one of the three labs that did the dating of the TS.
Incidentally, that particular lab also did the testing which demolished the bio-polymer coating argument.
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Old 25th October 2012, 04:26 AM   #3792
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
O Pharaoh, your discernment is, as always, an example for us all.

I very nearly excised the silly uni media announcement, but thought it was interesting to see how media spins things out of shape, especially given that fact one can read the final write up immediately afterward.

At the time, the media jive came out a full four months before the PLOS One article and I daresay that amusing little shroudie thing is still considered the definitive rebuttal to that remarkable find.

I confess to being amused by the fact this real 1st century shroud was carbon-dated by one of the three labs that did the dating of the TS.
Incidentally, that particular lab also did the testing which demolished the bio-polymer coating argument.
The Arizona AMS facility is well known, has been operating for thirty years and has handled a lot of high profile samples (including the Dead Sea Scrolls) so it's not that surprising.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 25th October 2012, 05:35 AM   #3793
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Oh, catsmate1, where did I say I was surprised?
Before this thread was started I had no idea thee was a place where C14 dating was done in AZ.
I entered this thread with nil expertise except in one, that's right one area that's been under discussion.

I've read and learned and pondered and reread and will be eternally grateful to the posters who have shared their knowledge here.
In fact, it's one of the things that most puzzles me about Jabba's posts- the lack of willingness to just plunge in and learn something new.

Anyway.
Catsmate1, I defy you to find me saying I was 'surprised' about the AZ lab being used for the honest-to-Ma'at 1st century shroud.

A pint in the Brazen Head would be a decent wager, n'est pas?
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Old 25th October 2012, 05:50 AM   #3794
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I believe I'll have a pint just on account that you're usually both right.

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Old 25th October 2012, 06:20 AM   #3795
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Those crazy Sumerians can say what they will, beer was invented to fool Sekhmet.
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Old 25th October 2012, 07:05 AM   #3796
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Exactly.
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Old 25th October 2012, 10:46 AM   #3797
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
Exactly.
I'm in. Pints all 'round.
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Old 26th October 2012, 02:33 AM   #3798
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Oh, catsmate1, where did I say I was surprised?
Before this thread was started I had no idea thee was a place where C14 dating was done in AZ.
I entered this thread with nil expertise except in one, that's right one area that's been under discussion.

I've read and learned and pondered and reread and will be eternally grateful to the posters who have shared their knowledge here.
In fact, it's one of the things that most puzzles me about Jabba's posts- the lack of willingness to just plunge in and learn something new.

Anyway.
Catsmate1, I defy you to find me saying I was 'surprised' about the AZ lab being used for the honest-to-Ma'at 1st century shroud.

A pint in the Brazen Head would be a decent wager, n'est pas?
I'm sorry if I offended you, it was unintended. I accept that you didn't say you were surprised, I could have phrased my response better.
Which Brazen Head? are you in Dublin?

Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
I believe I'll have a pint just on account that you're usually both right.

Bit of a long trip for you.............

Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
I'm in. Pints all 'round.
How about some muffins?

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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 26th October 2012, 05:15 AM   #3799
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Muffins are teh good, THX.
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Old 26th October 2012, 12:53 PM   #3800
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
I'm sorry if I offended you, it was unintended. I accept that you didn't say you were surprised, I could have phrased my response better.
Which Brazen Head? are you in Dublin?


Bit of a long trip for you.............


How about some muffins? ...
Offended?
ĦQue va!
It was my heavy-handed humour-Sorry to come across as a git.

Anyway, I still haven't the slightest when I'll have three days free to be able to sample the beer at the Brazen Head in Dublin.

Thanks for the muffin- today I saw some at a bookshop called "gremlins".
Is it too early to start on recipes in this thread?
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