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24th October 2012, 03:49 AM | #3761 |
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I assume your source is this page (as you didn't link to it).
Firstly I do not consider wiki to be a valid source for anything even remotely controversial, especially the shroud. Secondly the cited "source" for the alleged difference is............................Benford and Marino. Now if one goes to more reputable and reliable sources (e.g. Nature) one can find a significant amount of discussion about the various testing protocols. For example: P. R. Smith: Dating the Shroud: Nature 328 p196. M. Tite and Gove: Turin Shroud: Nature 327 p456. D. Dutton: Protocols for Turin Shroud: Nature 331 p108 D. Dutton: The Shroud of Turin: Nature 332 p300 These cover the various iterations of the testing protocol from the STURP protocol of 1985, the Trondheim protocol (also 1985), the proposals from the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Ballestrero's intervention et cetera. In none of these am I able to find any reference to taking three samples from the shroud cloth; there are references to using additional control samples, from material of known origin, for comparison and this was done. Even Gove, who was heavily critical of the changes to the process, does not mention this change is his list of seven differences. If you have a reliable source that suggests that it was intended that multiple samples were to be taken from the shroud for radiocarbon analysis please provide it. |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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24th October 2012, 04:26 AM | #3762 |
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Well I did explain that, saying - as it turned out, the 3 labs and one strip of cloth were sufficient anyway, because of the very high level of agreement between the results independently obtained by each lab. If you want to counter that by saying that one sample area was not sufficient on the basis that we now have people like Rogers, Benford and Marino selling commercial books claiming that the sample was from an invisible patch, then you just walk straight into the problem of actually having zero evidence of any such patch (whereas all known evidence from long before the C14, says that same area had never been patched). So you are left only with an unsupported claim from well-known shroud believers, but actually all known evidence being to the contrary. And of course, the other obvious point is that, because it was the religious believers themselves who were insisting that the tests were only done in a way such that they hoped the results could always be open to some realistic doubt. So that criticism really must be laid at the door of the religious believers. Except that, as I say - in the event, that criticism does not apply either, because as the C14 labs had always suspected, the accuracy of the final results rendered that "criticism" irrelevent anyway. |
24th October 2012, 04:31 AM | #3763 |
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Maybe the shroud was patched with the skin of Sagan's Dragon.
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24th October 2012, 04:35 AM | #3764 |
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24th October 2012, 05:01 AM | #3765 |
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24th October 2012, 05:21 AM | #3766 |
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C14 measures the isotope composition of the carbon in the material. Since carbon is not water soluble, and water does not contain carbon, it cannot affect the result. It is entirely posstible to obtain a reliable C14 dating on samples that have been submerged in water for centuries.
So, no. There is no plausibility to that hypothesis. Hans |
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24th October 2012, 06:08 AM | #3767 |
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24th October 2012, 06:13 AM | #3768 |
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24th October 2012, 06:21 AM | #3769 |
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24th October 2012, 06:31 AM | #3770 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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24th October 2012, 07:19 AM | #3771 |
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24th October 2012, 07:21 AM | #3772 |
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Now I'm not sure who's playing along and who thinks I might be serious on some level.
Sorry, it was just my whimsical way of observing that I've heard this sort of argument before. We've ended up with the hypothesis of a 14th Century patch which is made out of cloth of a completely different age from the original, but is nevertheless completely invisible and undetectable by any possible means. If you tested another part of the shroud, you'd no doubt be astonished to find that that part also had an identical patch of the same age. In fact, given enough testing, you'd have to conclude that the shroud is all patch. The shroudies' reaction to such a discovery would probably be to trumpet the news that as there was now no need to explain a hypothetical perfect splicing of threads of different ages, a major objection to their belief had been debunked. |
24th October 2012, 07:32 AM | #3773 |
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^
I see what you mean. When I have doubts about the seriousness of any given post here I go to the OP and go the gallery of photos of the images 'found' in the shroud. It helps put things in perspective. Anyway, speaking of perspective, here's Sue Benford writing about the shroud: http://www.shroud.com/benford.htm |
24th October 2012, 07:43 AM | #3774 |
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For me, the two are always very close to each other, divided by a fine and crenellated line. Invisible, undetectable dragon skin from an invisible, undetectable dragon would arguably make an invisible, undetectable patch--just like the one that isn't in the corner of the cloth. Never mind the problem of splicing IUDS onto medieval linen.
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24th October 2012, 08:56 AM | #3775 |
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^
I have the feeling that would be child's' play for Sue Benford, who's on record as having written:
Quote:
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24th October 2012, 02:48 PM | #3776 |
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Me from 21st October 2012, 09:56 PM
Quote:
Upon thinking it over, I believe they all read each others posts,facepalm themselves, shake their head, and think, "How can anyone believe this nonsense?!" If, by some divine act of providence (wink wink), they all posted in the same tread, could we have that thread locked? Would they be trapped there? Pleeeease? |
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24th October 2012, 03:00 PM | #3777 |
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24th October 2012, 09:24 PM | #3778 |
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24th October 2012, 11:59 PM | #3779 |
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25th October 2012, 12:02 AM | #3780 |
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25th October 2012, 12:15 AM | #3781 |
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Well, not a lot like anyway.
I can't recall off-hand which lab did the C14 testing. |
25th October 2012, 12:30 AM | #3782 |
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25th October 2012, 12:52 AM | #3783 |
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Roger's lab was his own kitchen and the Benford/Marino lab has more to do with quantum Voids, if I've understood Benford's writings.
Anyway, here's the NatGeo article: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...salem-leprosy/ It mentions the patch idea, amusingly enough. |
25th October 2012, 01:12 AM | #3784 |
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-After reading that quote you provided from the Journal of Theoretics I've concluded that the image on the SoT was obviously produced with an Amega Wand. -Unless you guys come up with a better nomination as to what sub-etc-issue to address next, I'll put forward my best case for the existence of a 21st century artefact in a 14th Century French convent. -I'll be back after breakfast -- Akka |
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25th October 2012, 01:25 AM | #3785 |
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Here's more:
http://www.huji.ac.il/cgi-bin/dovrut...40517732688760 This is the final write up: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0008319 And here is the pro-authenticity proponents' reaction to the find and its reporting: http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com...hroud-not.html |
25th October 2012, 01:48 AM | #3786 |
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25th October 2012, 02:09 AM | #3787 |
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25th October 2012, 03:17 AM | #3788 |
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It was tested at the AMS facility at the University of Arizona.
The Akeldama shroud was utterly unlike the Turin shroud; multiple pieces, typical materials (patchwork of simply woven linen and wool). Though to most archaeologists the shroud wasn't as interesting as the human remains founnd and the genetic analysis of them. Of course the shroudies immediately got defensive at further evidence thei cloth is a fraud. ETA: I should have read further in the thread. |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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25th October 2012, 03:33 AM | #3789 |
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I enjoyed the article from PLOS One immensely, and I can't help but think about the fascinating insights (into goings-on in the 14th century) that could be had if science was given full access to the SoT. On the other hand, the nonsense from the bleevers is just more of the same old same old, although I have to admit that the press release from the Hebrew University played right into their hands with that silly "Burial shroud proves Turin Shroud not from 1st century C.E. Jerusalem" line. I don't believe that's any more true than claiming that the finding of ancient Egyptian funerary boats proves that Noah's Ark is a myth, and such an august institution should have known better than to say a thing like that. |
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25th October 2012, 03:41 AM | #3790 |
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25th October 2012, 03:49 AM | #3791 |
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O Pharaoh, your discernment is, as always, an example for us all.
I very nearly excised the silly uni media announcement, but thought it was interesting to see how media spins things out of shape, especially given that fact one can read the final write up immediately afterward. At the time, the media jive came out a full four months before the PLOS One article and I daresay that amusing little shroudie thing is still considered the definitive rebuttal to that remarkable find. I confess to being amused by the fact this real 1st century shroud was carbon-dated by one of the three labs that did the dating of the TS. Incidentally, that particular lab also did the testing which demolished the bio-polymer coating argument. |
25th October 2012, 04:26 AM | #3792 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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25th October 2012, 05:35 AM | #3793 |
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Oh, catsmate1, where did I say I was surprised?
Before this thread was started I had no idea thee was a place where C14 dating was done in AZ. I entered this thread with nil expertise except in one, that's right one area that's been under discussion. I've read and learned and pondered and reread and will be eternally grateful to the posters who have shared their knowledge here. In fact, it's one of the things that most puzzles me about Jabba's posts- the lack of willingness to just plunge in and learn something new. Anyway. Catsmate1, I defy you to find me saying I was 'surprised' about the AZ lab being used for the honest-to-Ma'at 1st century shroud. A pint in the Brazen Head would be a decent wager, n'est pas? |
25th October 2012, 05:50 AM | #3794 |
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I believe I'll have a pint just on account that you're usually both right.
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25th October 2012, 06:20 AM | #3795 |
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Those crazy Sumerians can say what they will, beer was invented to fool Sekhmet.
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25th October 2012, 07:05 AM | #3796 |
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Exactly.
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25th October 2012, 10:46 AM | #3797 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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26th October 2012, 02:33 AM | #3798 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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26th October 2012, 05:15 AM | #3799 |
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Muffins are teh good, THX.
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26th October 2012, 12:53 PM | #3800 |
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Offended?
ĦQue va! It was my heavy-handed humour-Sorry to come across as a git. Anyway, I still haven't the slightest when I'll have three days free to be able to sample the beer at the Brazen Head in Dublin. Thanks for the muffin- today I saw some at a bookshop called "gremlins". Is it too early to start on recipes in this thread? |
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