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29th October 2012, 03:09 PM | #3841 |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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29th October 2012, 03:33 PM | #3842 |
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29th October 2012, 03:45 PM | #3843 |
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You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis |
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30th October 2012, 03:45 AM | #3844 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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30th October 2012, 03:53 AM | #3845 |
A rigidly defined area of doubt and uncertainty
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I remember, oooh, 1912*, I think; I posted on this very thread to express my astonishment that it was still going. I never thought that I would have opportunity to do so again.
From what I can see, since its inception in late 1743 CE*, the content of this thread has remained resolutely static. Nothing new has been said, referenced, decided... I admit that this is based upon a random, small sample of posts from the last few decades*, so please, if I am wrong and something important, relevant and interesting has been added, would one of you fine ladies and gentlemen point me to it? I thank you for your time. Have a Jaffa Cake. *: It's possible that these dates are affected by contamination. |
30th October 2012, 04:54 AM | #3846 |
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Jabba:
Post #3825 is it? That's what you have? Really? |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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30th October 2012, 04:56 AM | #3847 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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30th October 2012, 05:02 AM | #3848 |
A rigidly defined area of doubt and uncertainty
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Are you sure it's coffee? It could be zombie-god-blood...
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30th October 2012, 05:09 AM | #3849 |
Penultimate Amazing
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30th October 2012, 05:49 AM | #3850 |
Master Poster
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30th October 2012, 06:00 AM | #3851 |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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30th October 2012, 06:07 AM | #3852 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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30th October 2012, 06:08 AM | #3853 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
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30th October 2012, 06:31 AM | #3854 |
Penultimate Amazing
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^
Once Jabba posts up sources, we can compare notes on the pleasure and/or pain. All these objections hinge on the Archbishop Ballestrero's intervention. It's difficult to imagine just what Jabba is saying here, other than he thinks there was a conspiracy. Could you clear this up, please, Jabba? ETA: The last 'objection' can hardly be laid to the archbishop's door. Sorry for the exaggeration. But really, Jabba. A goodly number of these 'objections' have been answered in this thread. Why bring them up again? |
30th October 2012, 07:41 AM | #3855 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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30th October 2012, 07:49 AM | #3856 |
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Your Side?
- Borrowing from Catsmate (not quite verbatim), the following is a suggested beginning outline for YOUR side of this story. Please let me know if you have additions, or changes, otherwise.
- I hope to begin adding MY follow up claims to YOUR beginning outline, your follow ups to my follow ups, etc. – and then, I hope to add YOUR follow up claims to MY beginning outline, my follow ups to your follow ups, etc. - Somewhere in those two haystacks, we should start adding SOURCES for our claims. We’ll see what happens. - The specifics here are sort of tricky as to how to fit all this together -- for instance, my outline is oriented towards the validity of the carbon dating, whereas yours is oriented towards the authenticity of the Shroud in general. - I’ll try to carry the ongoing debate, both sides, on my website (http://shrouddebates.com/), but present each addition over here as they’re added. I'll be trying to focus on one "branching" at a time. - Quite tedious of course, but maybe we’ll actually get somewhere. --- Jabba 1. Historical: 1.1. the lack of evidence for the shroud's existence prior to the mid fourteenth century 1.2. it's emergence during the 'holy relic' craze (along with about forty other such burial shrouds) 1.3. lack of mention of a miraculously imaged Shroud in any early Christian writings 1.4. the distinct changes in the shroud, fading of colour, since its first exposure 2. Physiological: 2.1. the lack of resemblance of the shroud image to an actual human body; 2.2. likewise the position of the body with hands folded across the genitals which simply isn't possible for a body lying flay (the arms aren't long enough) 3. Textile: 3.1. the weave pattern of the shroud does not match anything known from first century Mid East 3.2. the weave pattern matches medieval Europe well; 3.3. no example of the complex herringbone twill weave has even been shown to come from the first century Mid East 4. Testimony: 4.1. the d'Arcis Memo indicates the shroud was created around 1354 and was a known fake 4.2. … 5. Artistic: 5.1. the face of the image resembles medieval Byzantine style, with Gothic elements; 5.2. the unnaturally elongated body shape and extremities are typical of the elongated style the Late Medieval/High Gothic period 6. Reproducibility: 6.1. contrary to the claims of shroudies the image can and has been reproduced using medieval methods 7. Analytic: 7.1. microscopic examination, (including non-visible, polarised light and electron microscopy) shows the shroud is composed of common artistic pigments of the period of its origin 7.2. chemical testing shows the same 7.3. radiocarbon testing, carried out under highly controlled conditions by three laboratories showed the cloth to be medieval. 7.3.1. under heavy supervision a sample of the shroud were removed on 21APR1988 by Riggi; the strip came from a single site on the main body of the shroud away from any patches or charred areas and was split into three pieces and sealed into containers by Ballestrero and Tite. 7.3.2. accelerator mass spectroscopy 7.3.3. cleaning was done with expert input (including Proctor & Gamble), this removed ~30% of the sample mass. Each laboratory used slightly different methods; hot ether, ultrasonic bath, vacuum pipette, repeated acid and alkali baths with intermediate washing, detergents, ethanol, bleach 7.3.4. three laboratories analysed shroud samples in conjunction with three other supplied sample of known provenance 7.3.5. all three analyses agreed, the shroud dates from 1260 and 1390AD (>95 per cent confidence) and between 1000 and 1500AD (>99.9 per cent confidence) 7.3.6. the results were formally published in Nature in February 1989: "These results therefore provide conclusive evidence that the linen of the shroud of Turin is medieval" 7.3.7. accusations from believers began almost immediately accusing scientists of faking the tests or substituting samples 8. Cultural: 8.1. the shroud does not match with what is documented and known of first century Jewish burial practices 8.2. nor does the shroud match the only extant sample of such burial cloths; 8.3. neither does the shroud match the biblical accounts of the burial cloths; 8.4. there any no demonstrated artefacts of the putative Jesus extant today 8.5. the supposed historical background does not suggest that such a cloth would have been preserved, certainly without publicity prior, to ~1355 9. Serological: 9.1. a minor point (as blood probably wouldn't survive this long anyway) but despite the best attempts of (and much lying and pseudoscience by) shroudies, there is no evidence for blood residue__________________ |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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30th October 2012, 07:54 AM | #3857 |
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30th October 2012, 08:01 AM | #3858 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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30th October 2012, 08:08 AM | #3859 |
A rigidly defined area of doubt and uncertainty
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Wow. It's like stepping back in time.
...I wonder where I left my flares... |
30th October 2012, 08:10 AM | #3860 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Hold on just one second. You are blatantly telling us that you intend to plagiarise Catsmate, but also that you will change the words, but also that you will not identify what you changed and why (as demonstrated in the rest of your post). Right
I hope nobody will engage with this swill. You are seeking a needle in a stack of needles. You mean the C14 dating you refuse to address? The only debate is your internal one. I will not glorify your bastardisation of Catsmates words by honouring them with a quote. |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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30th October 2012, 08:34 AM | #3861 |
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Like so many purveyors of nonsense, Jabba is persistently portraying this as if it starts neutrally, i.e., that the question of authenticity is a ball squarely in the middle of the field, and the winning side is the one who pushes it to their goal first.
As we know, this is not the case. There is no neutral field; there are two positive claims. First, that the shroud is from the time of the biblical Jesus. Second, that the shroud was actually the biblical Jesus' burial shroud. Despite being repeatedly told that it is not so, Jabba pretends both claims are the same. More importantly he ignores that the entire burden of proof is on him. If you claim the shroud is x years old, then show the evidence that it is x years old. Actually, it is possibly to use a semi-courtroom analogy, but not the trial itself. Instead, consider a motion in judge's chambers to stipulate relevant experts. No drama, no show, just the judge considering the claim. Jabba: Your Honor, Rogers, Benford and Marino are experts. Judge: What are their qualifications? Jabba: These papers. Judge: These aren't peer-reviewed. Jabba: The information included is damning to the anti-authenticity crowd. Judge: First, no it's not, as your opponent has ably shown. Second, it is irrelevant. I asked for qualifications of expertise and pointed out that the papers are not peer reviewed. Jabba: They get cited a lot by Sindologists. Judge: What about non-Sindologists? Jabba: They get cited a lot by Sindologists. Judge: I decline to recognize these people as experts. Jabba: But I have no case without them. Judge: Then nothing has changed. You have no case with them, either. |
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My kids still love me. Last edited by Garrette; 30th October 2012 at 08:47 AM. Reason: To replace "Sindonologists" with "Sindologists" because sometimes I'm stupid. |
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30th October 2012, 08:36 AM | #3862 |
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Considering the post and page count, that's optimistic. You've typed yourself into a corner here, yet you can't seem to find your way out. It's easy, just admit your shroud belief is nothing more than blind faith in an artifact that has no objective evidence in favor of its authenticity.
Again, even if you were to magically prove the c14 error you cling to, that would do zero to authenticate the fraud, I mean shroud. Nor would it authenticate anything much surrounding the alleged life of the body of the person you allege it covered. So what's your point? |
30th October 2012, 08:42 AM | #3863 |
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I googled "Sindologist" and found this. http://cheezburger.com/1878159104
Is the study of burial shrouds a real discipline or is it a fake one like cereology (study of crop circles)? (Interesting that google chrome spellchecker doesn't like "googled" as a verb) |
30th October 2012, 08:58 AM | #3864 |
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No. You are the one claiming the shroud is real therefore you provide the evidence for this.
Otherwise admit you're wrong. Can we really be surprised at the antics of Jabba/Rich? Well I'll continue to expose Jabba's evasions, deceptions and outright lies. |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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30th October 2012, 09:05 AM | #3865 |
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An additional minor point about the radiocarbon dating and the shroudies' ludicrous claims of magic contamination: in 2010 the journal Radiocarbon (a journal that the shroudies' haven't managed to get their nonsense published in) published "Investigating a Dated Piece of the Shroud of Turin" (Timothy Jull and Rachel Freer-Waters, University of Arizona) In the (peer reviewed) paper they described how they had microscopically examined part of the sample cut from the Shroud of Turin and supplied to the University for radiocarbon dating. They found no evidence for any contamination, particularly in the form of coatings or dyeing, in the material of the sample. They concluded that they could find no reason to dispute the original radiocarbon measurements which, in 1988, had shown the Shroud to be dated between 1260 and 1390.
Real sample. Real science. Real journal. An example to the shroudies. |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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30th October 2012, 09:15 AM | #3866 |
Heretic Pharaoh
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This reminds me of someone talking to an imaginary friend. It's pretty tragic. And this reminds me of someone having a debate with an imaginary friend. We're already in the only place we're ever going to be. The SoT is a 14th century fake and you will never be able to accept that this is the case. That's all she wrote. |
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Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
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30th October 2012, 09:15 AM | #3867 |
Penultimate Amazing
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My kids still love me. |
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30th October 2012, 09:16 AM | #3868 |
Nitpicking dilettante
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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30th October 2012, 10:21 AM | #3869 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindology
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sindology There is a wiki and dictioanry entry... If it is a real discipline we should stop naming the turin shroud fantasologist with such a name. It would be an affront and insult to real practitioner of the art. |
30th October 2012, 11:26 AM | #3870 |
Penultimate Amazing
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There was a flap about these coins in 1997, but the images - magnifications of portions of the Shroud - were very obscure and ambiguous. Some enthusiasts are sustaining the argument that coins of Pontius Pilate have left images on the Shroud where they were used to close the eyes of the person depicted. But only the most extreme ones are keeping the faith. Here's one.
Quote:
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30th October 2012, 01:10 PM | #3871 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Craig - my response:
Huh? I don't even know what that means! |
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Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
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30th October 2012, 03:35 PM | #3872 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
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30th October 2012, 07:05 PM | #3873 |
Penultimate Amazing
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30th October 2012, 07:20 PM | #3874 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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31st October 2012, 02:07 AM | #3875 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Actually, yes, he does.
In any case, all pro-authenticity advocates I've read up til now do the same. They literally dismiss the C14 dating, clutching at any straw to substantiate their POV. Remember the Russian scammer Dimitri Kouznetsov? In case you don't, here's a sampling:
Quote:
Quote:
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And now for references over the web that still cite the man as a legimate source of information:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And on and on. Like the water damage idea and the biological polymer canard, this scammer's bit of work are still circulating in the pro-authencity world. And used to dismiss the C14 dating of the TS. Just look at the long life the 'patch' idea had and incredibly enough, continues to have. It only further confirms my opinion the pro-authencity people are cut of the same cloth as chem-trail believers. As far as I'm concerned, the subject is barely this side of a conspiracy theory. |
31st October 2012, 03:41 AM | #3876 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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31st October 2012, 04:13 AM | #3877 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Yes, catsmate1, you ARE the poster who introduced us to the egregious Russian.
And so much more! I'm simply stunned by the half-life that nonsense has had amongst the faithful. That's why I compare them to chem-trail believers. |
31st October 2012, 04:58 AM | #3878 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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31st October 2012, 05:19 AM | #3879 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Cheers, catsmate1.
I have two colleagues who firmly believe in chem-trails. And more things. Sometimes I buy them drinks on breaks just hear what they believe in at any given moment. And yes, I've asked them about the TS. They are firmly convinced by the pollen 'findings'. |
31st October 2012, 05:36 AM | #3880 |
Heretic Pharaoh
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You pair have, with humour, aplomb and due diligence, made this thread into a worthy reference.
Many thanks, and kudos to you both. |
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Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
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