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Tags circumcision , circumcision incidents , circumcision issues

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Old 6th July 2017, 05:50 AM   #281
Mycroft
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Arguing that cutting off a piece of a person's body is not an injury is an absurdity. On that basis one could argue that there is no such thing as an injury. "Yes I punched him in the face and broke his nose. But can you prove that a broken nose is an injury? No? Then I did nothing wrong."


No. A claim supported by the meaning of the word "injury". If you use a knife to cut somebody, that is an injury by definition.
By that definition every surgery is an injury.
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Old 6th July 2017, 05:52 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
To demonstrate some sort of consistency in your thinking. Do you think parents should be allowed to have the lesser forms of female genital mutulation performed?
I didn't write the law, my argument doesn't involve the law, so how does addressing an inconsistency in the law demonstrate consistency in my thinking?
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Old 6th July 2017, 06:10 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I didn't write the law, my argument doesn't involve the law, so how does addressing an inconsistency in the law demonstrate consistency in my thinking?
How about you don't answer my question with another question, mycroft? What are you afraid of?
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Old 6th July 2017, 10:31 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I didn't write the law, my argument doesn't involve the law, so how does addressing an inconsistency in the law demonstrate consistency in my thinking?
Is it safe to say then you feel the law should not protect the rights of parents to circumcise their children? If so, awesome we agree now.
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Old 6th July 2017, 11:17 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Is it safe to say then you feel the law should not protect the rights of parents to circumcise their children? If so, awesome we agree now.
That cannot be derived from what I said, so what purpose does this serve?

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Old 6th July 2017, 11:31 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm not sure I can even invent a definition of injury that includes all of the traditional injuries but excludes actually removing a functioning, nerve filled part of a person.

What definition of 'injury' are you using that allows such scope?
Removal of an extra finger?, toe? or tail perhaps?
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Old 6th July 2017, 11:34 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
By that definition every surgery is an injury.
Ummm, every surgery using invasive techniques actually is an injury. Why on earth would you think not?
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Old 6th July 2017, 12:17 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I think there's an important distinction being missed in that most surgical procedures are for repairing or removing damaged or unhealthy tissues but the vast majority of infant circumcision does not have any such justification.

With no preventable health risk to offer as a rational basis for taking a knife to flesh, this procedure doesn't qualify as "medical" to me.

First, do no harm.

Now, it certainly can get more complicated, but net benefit is key in justifying an operation. Doctors are not spiritual advisors or sociologists, so the family and cultural bonding stuff is outside their scope of concern. What is good for the development of a newborn child should be their overriding concern.

30 seconds a day of minimal sanitary effort is what we're talking about. So hey, let's remove baby teeth and gums (future development as well) and install dentures. We're preventing gingivitis!

There is a great deal of very slow change that occurs to the organs and skin arrangement well into puberty that diverge greatly when the procedure is at birth. The structure they are looking at is very different from the final result at adulthood. Not to mention surface area and room for error.

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Does this qualify as mutilation?

https://www.cincinnatichildrens.org/...tra-finger-toe
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Old 6th July 2017, 12:22 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Guys having fun playing with strawmen? Maybe there should be a special thread for that.
What was the strawman?
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Old 6th July 2017, 12:25 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Ummm, every surgery using invasive techniques actually is an injury. Why on earth would you think not?
Because neither common usage nor the words definitions support that.

Sure, technically you could refer to a surgical incision as an "injury", but that would be an unusual use of the word.



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Old 6th July 2017, 12:32 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Because neither common usage nor the words definitions support that.

Sure, technically you could refer to a surgical incision as an "injury", but that would be an unusual use of the word.



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No it wouldn't.
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Old 6th July 2017, 12:37 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No it wouldn't.
Okay, then it should be easy for you to cite some examples.

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Old 6th July 2017, 12:39 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What was the strawman?
Didn't I quote them? I'm pretty sure I did.

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Old 6th July 2017, 12:57 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Didn't I quote them? I'm pretty sure I did.

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No you didn't.
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Old 6th July 2017, 01:02 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No you didn't.
Maybe instead you should pick one of them and show me how it's not a strawman.

Do that right after you cite some examples where "injury" is used to describe a surgical incision.

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Old 6th July 2017, 01:25 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Maybe instead you should pick one of them and show me how it's not a strawman.

Do that right after you cite some examples where "injury" is used to describe a surgical incision.
How about "wound?" Surgical incisions are called "wounds" all the time. When an infant boy is circumcised, he is being wounded.
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Old 6th July 2017, 02:16 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
How about "wound?" Surgical incisions are called "wounds" all the time. When an infant boy is circumcised, he is being wounded.
Alright, you get points for that. "Surgical wound" is definitely a thing.

At the same time, do you really say someone is "wounded" after surgery? Be honest.



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Old 6th July 2017, 02:19 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Alright, you get points for that. "Surgical wound" is definitely a thing.

At the same time, do you really say someone is "wounded" after surgery? Be honest.
I don't say they've been "incised" either. Occasionally, the word "cut" is used, and it's often intended to be ironically diminutive.

Regardless, when someone has been cut by a surgeon for virtually no measurable medical benefit, it's usually grounds for a lawsuit. And the person cut is usually considered to have been injured in the process.
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Old 6th July 2017, 02:20 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Alright, you get points for that. "Surgical wound" is definitely a thing.

At the same time, do you really say someone is "wounded" after surgery? Be honest.

Plenty of post-surgery discussion about how the "wound" is healing.

I've listened to enough of it to know. More often than I would like as the subject.
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Old 6th July 2017, 02:22 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Plenty of post-surgery discussion about how the "wound" is healing.

I've listened to enough of it to know. More often than I would like as the subject.
There are "wound care clinics" all over the United States, too; I'd say the world but I know that terminology differs according to both language and culture.

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Old 6th July 2017, 03:26 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
How about you don't answer my question with another question, mycroft? What are you afraid of?
Hello?
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Old 6th July 2017, 03:54 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Hello?
Dude, sorry. I thought you knew:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=321239
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Old 6th July 2017, 04:15 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Because neither common usage nor the words definitions support that.

Sure, technically you could refer to a surgical incision as an "injury", but that would be an unusual use of the word.



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Wrong. And I have the scars to prove it. FFS I have metal plates in my body. The Surgeons actually described the insertion of same as injuries pre-op and even described how we might minimise same. So are you claiming that you are right, I am wrong, my surgical teams are wrong and everybody is wrong except you?

Have you no concept of rehab and Physio? Are you really that naive? I have effectively a titanium ankle (and a fabric stomach musculature) . The only thing that will keep me ticking over is attention to detail.

But by your lights I should simply chuck that out. Because something.

The quacks were, in fairness, quite forthright pointing out that the surgery in and of itself were in fact injuries and had consequences. Only a child would fail to grasp this.
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Old 6th July 2017, 04:20 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Contrary to popular belief, I am not omniscient.





Working on it, though.
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Old 6th July 2017, 04:46 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
No, is anyone advocating preventive circumcision in infant boys? Yes. Is anyone able to give a valid reason? No. Is anyone advocating FGM? Yes. Is anyone able to give a valid reason? No.
This
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Old 6th July 2017, 06:59 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
This
Thanks. Fair disclosure. I am a male and uncut. My long dead mother considered it and rejected it when I was an infant.

I'm kind of glad of that. Chopping bits of infants for no good reason seems really odd. She agreed.
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Old 6th July 2017, 07:58 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Correct, religious freedom is not absolute.

At the same time, I also think you would need a very good reason, and I really don't believe this qualifies.

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I would apply the principle of harm in this case and in others.

Usually when talking about freedoms such as of speech, religion, the press etc... there should be tolerance for it unless it causes harm. Circumcision seems a pretty clear...ahem...cut example of a practice that causes harm. I think most people who are proponents of circumcision who have, themselves, been circumcised make the claim that they have not been harmed on the basis that they do not remember it being harmful. That doesn't mean it isn't harmful.
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Old 7th July 2017, 02:18 PM   #308
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Old 8th July 2017, 02:23 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Maybe instead you should pick one of them and show me how it's not a strawman.

Do that right after you cite some examples where "injury" is used to describe a surgical incision.

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Or you could simply not create strawmen?
ETA: In case the above was a bit cryptic what I meant was if you stopped calling things that aren't strawman strawman?
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Old 8th July 2017, 02:49 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
There are "wound care clinics" all over the United States, too; I'd say the world but I know that terminology differs according to both language and culture.
It's amazing how much attention is paid to inconsequential matters such as this, you'd almost think there was an attempt to deflect the actual point under discussion which is why should a parent be allowed to decide to have functional, healthy tissue removed because

1) bad hygiene can mean an unpleasant odor
2) a religious tradition exists of removing healthy tissue
3) the child penis will look different to theirs
4) never did the male parent any harm
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Old 8th July 2017, 10:18 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Wrong. And I have the scars to prove it. FFS I have metal plates in my body. The Surgeons actually described the insertion of same as injuries pre-op and even described how we might minimise same. So are you claiming that you are right, I am wrong, my surgical teams are wrong and everybody is wrong except you?

Have you no concept of rehab and Physio? Are you really that naive? I have effectively a titanium ankle (and a fabric stomach musculature) . The only thing that will keep me ticking over is attention to detail.

But by your lights I should simply chuck that out. Because something.

The quacks were, in fairness, quite forthright pointing out that the surgery in and of itself were in fact injuries and had consequences. Only a child would fail to grasp this.
My disagreeing that "injury" being used to describe surgery is common in your opinion proves that:

1) I must believe you, your surgical team, and the entire world to be wrong. Later on you identify this same surgical team to be quacks?

2) I have no concept of rehab and physical therapy.

3) I am very naive.

4) I think you should chuck something out, exactly what being unidentifiable.

5) I must be a child because I fail to grasp something?

After a couple of days to cool down, do you still agree with all that?
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Old 8th July 2017, 11:04 AM   #312
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We're all very shocked that this conversation has devolved into bickering over definitions of words and impugning each others motives.

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Old 8th July 2017, 11:36 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
My disagreeing that "injury" being used to describe surgery is common in your opinion proves that:

1) I must believe you, your surgical team, and the entire world to be wrong. Later on you identify this same surgical team to be quacks?

2) I have no concept of rehab and physical therapy.

3) I am very naive.

4) I think you should chuck something out, exactly what being unidentifiable.

5) I must be a child because I fail to grasp something?

After a couple of days to cool down, do you still agree with all that?
6. You are wrong.
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Old 9th July 2017, 07:16 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It's amazing how much attention is paid to inconsequential matters such as this, you'd almost think there was an attempt to deflect the actual point under discussion which is why should a parent be allowed to decide to have functional, healthy tissue removed because

1) bad hygiene can mean an unpleasant odor
2) a religious tradition exists of removing healthy tissue
3) the child penis will look different to theirs
4) never did the male parent any harm
If you are going to make such a list, perhaps you should also include some of the possible benefits listed on this page, hosted by the Mayo clinic.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-proc...e/prc-20013585
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Old 9th July 2017, 07:37 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
If you are going to make such a list, perhaps you should also include some of the possible benefits listed on this page, hosted by the Mayo clinic.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-proc...e/prc-20013585
Accent on the might. If it was scientifically proven to provide significant health benefits, it would be standard practice for doctors to recommend it instead of leaving it entirely up to parents.

Also, none of the listed "possible benefits" would cause consideration of preemptive surgery in any other part of the body, especially without the consent of the patient. If a kid is getting urinary tract infections because of poor penile hygiene, responsibility for that shouldn't be hung (sorry) on the foreskin; it's up to the parents to teach their kids to keep their junk clean.

If circumcision was truly of significant medical benefit in the western world, doctors would be recommending it to their uncircumcised adult patients, and I don't think anyone here would have a problem with an adult choosing circumcision. Hell, I'd have little problem with, say, a 14-year-old choosing circumcision, even if it was purely for religious reasons. Infants, however, deserve to have their options as open as possible until they're capable of making decisions for themselves.
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Old 10th July 2017, 09:42 PM   #316
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Relevant Counter Arguments video that just came out outlining the arguments for circumcision:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z5OESt3TCg
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Old 10th July 2017, 10:45 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Relevant Counter Arguments video that just came out outlining the arguments for circumcision:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z5OESt3TCg
Informative. Infant circumcision is ********.
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Old 17th July 2017, 11:49 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Accent on the might. If it was scientifically proven to provide significant health benefits, it would be standard practice for doctors to recommend it instead of leaving it entirely up to parents.

Also, none of the listed "possible benefits" would cause consideration of preemptive surgery in any other part of the body, especially without the consent of the patient. If a kid is getting urinary tract infections because of poor penile hygiene, responsibility for that shouldn't be hung (sorry) on the foreskin; it's up to the parents to teach their kids to keep their junk clean.

If circumcision was truly of significant medical benefit in the western world, doctors would be recommending it to their uncircumcised adult patients, and I don't think anyone here would have a problem with an adult choosing circumcision. Hell, I'd have little problem with, say, a 14-year-old choosing circumcision, even if it was purely for religious reasons. Infants, however, deserve to have their options as open as possible until they're capable of making decisions for themselves.
Agreed. Eight pages of discussion has not changed my mind. How can a bunch of skeptics rationalize circumcision? I've read all 8 pages - so far they cannot.

Isn't the fact that a lot of people who have been circumcised are not happy about it enough of a reason to abolish the practice? What other reason do we need?

I am not happy you unnecessarily removed part of my body without my consent. Especially that part. The. End.
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Old 18th July 2017, 01:06 PM   #319
I Am The Scum
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It's really disappointing that so many people don't want to address the very obvious harm that occurs during circumcision. It is an extremely painful procedure. We don't even have to address things like the removal of flesh, or scary words like "mutilation" or "injury." If you want to slice someone with a knife and claim that it is for their benefit, then you had better come up with an extremely compelling reason. So far, the possible benefits don't come anywhere near any other procedure, such as vaccination.

And I'm equally disappointed that on a skeptic's forum, issues like ethnicity, religion, or tradition are being propped as though they have any moral weight whatsoever. If you really think this is a factor to be considered, then please illustrate its application. For example:

I punched my daughter in the stomach because we're Mongolian.

Does that make sense? I don't see how the person's ethnicity should factor into our moral judgment. But if any among you see reason why it should, or why we should consider his religion or local traditions instead, I'd like to hear it.
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Old 25th July 2017, 02:35 PM   #320
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Looks as if there's a correlation between anaerobic bacterial colonies under the foreskin and susceptibility to HIV. Hopefully I don't need to explain that regular hygiene generally precludes anaerobic growth.

http://gizmodo.com/certain-penis-dwe...hiv-1797237774

or http://mbio.asm.org/content/8/4/e00996-17.full for the actual paper.
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