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Old 17th July 2017, 10:53 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You didn't say just government. This is about voting, which isnt always tied to government.

You give no explanation of why or how one person one vote is the purpose or serves some purpose or anything like that.
Really? So you would be OK if your vote was removed from you?
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Old 17th July 2017, 11:01 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Really? So you would be OK if your vote was removed from you?
How I would feel and the issue of whether voting is mostly an ends or means are two different issues.
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Old 17th July 2017, 11:03 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
How I would feel and the issue of whether voting is mostly an ends or means are two different issues.
So you would be happy and content to lose your right to vote then?
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Old 17th July 2017, 11:05 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
So you would be happy and content to lose your right to vote then?
Why would you assume I would be happy with the situation?
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Old 17th July 2017, 11:45 AM   #45
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Man he's been quiet lately.
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Old 17th July 2017, 11:54 AM   #46
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Reminds me of the old days where falling from favour meant that your family assets reverted to the crown.
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Old 17th July 2017, 11:55 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You didn't say just government. This is about voting, which isnt always tied to government.

You give no explanation of why or how one person one vote is the purpose or serves some purpose or anything like that.
If you honestly go back and read my posts from the start and come to a conclusion other than I'm referring to the government, you're either dishonest or clueless.
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:02 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
If you honestly go back and read my posts from the start and come to a conclusion other than I'm referring to the government, you're either dishonest or clueless.
Then explain why it should be one person one vote for government.
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:07 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then explain why it should be one person one vote for government.
Because we are all equal. Supposedly in the eyes of the law and government. That's theory, YMMV.
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:11 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Because we are all equal. Supposedly in the eyes of the law and government. That's theory, YMMV.
So, equal vote is the ends, it serve no other goal then to promote a sense of equality?
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:22 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
So, equal vote is the ends, it serve no other goal then to promote a sense of equality?
Yes, which is the whole *********** point of the United States of America.
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:24 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Yes, which is the whole *********** point of the United States of America.
The Constitution says the point is to in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity. One person one vote could conflict with that.
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:28 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The Constitution says the point is to in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity. One person one vote could conflict with that.
So what?
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:31 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
So what?
So, equality isn't the whole point of the united States. Which means it isn't a given that it should be one person one vote.
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:38 PM   #55
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I love that you're so comically and passionately wrong all the time. It's cute.
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:39 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
So, equality isn't the whole point of the united States. Which means it isn't a given that it should be one person one vote.
I didn't say that, someone else did. Take it up with them.

All citizens are equal under the constitution therefore one vote per person.
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:39 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
I love that you're so comically and passionately wrong all the time. It's cute.
Just answer the question. Is the Constitution right or are you right about what the point of the United States is?
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:41 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
I didn't say that, someone else did. Take it up with them.

All citizens are equal under the constitution therefore one vote per person.
I was taking in up with them, which is what I was explaining to your "so" comment.

Now that you bring up your point, so are you arguing that the vote itself is the ends, and correct even if the consequences are horrendous?
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:42 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Just answer the question. Is the Constitution right or are you right about what the point of the United States is?
Can't they both be right?
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:44 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I was taking in up with them, which is what I was explaining to your "so" comment.

Now that you bring up your point, so are you arguing that the vote itself is the ends, and correct even if the consequences are horrendous?
Yes, democracy is messy and to probably misquote Churchill (?) "it's the worst form of government except for all the others".
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:47 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Can't they both be right?
Most times, yes. But constructing a scenario where the two conflict (for example, one person one vote leads to electing effete representatives not capable of promoting common defense that a military dictatorship would solve), is rather easy.
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:48 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Yes, democracy is messy and to probably misquote Churchill (?) "it's the worst form of government except for all the others".
And what if we discover a form that is not one person one vote but I'd a better form?
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:50 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Most times, yes. But constructing a scenario where the two conflict (for example, one person one vote leads to electing effete representatives not capable of promoting common defense that a military dictatorship would solve), is rather easy.
Almost any other method with one person gets more than one vote will most certainly lead to corruption and possibly tyranny. So how is that better?
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:54 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Almost any other method with one person gets more than one vote will most certainly lead to corruption and possibly tyranny. So how is that better?
Then that is an argument that one person one vote promotes ends rather than just being the ends of promoting equality. Your post 726 and Noah's post 721 take the position that it is an ends.
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Old 17th July 2017, 01:22 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Just answer the question. Is the Constitution right or are you right about what the point of the United States is?
Both.

I got my information from the Constitution.

Yours is a bizarre interpretation of it, as is your M.O.
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Old 17th July 2017, 01:26 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Both.

I got my information from the Constitution.

Yours is a bizarre interpretation of it, as is your M.O.
Earlier, in response to a comment about equally you said,

Quote:
Yes, which is the whole *********** point of the United States of America.
If you are right, and the Constitution is right to include "common defense," are you wrong to say equality is the whole point? If it is the whole point, then there cannot be other points.
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Old 17th July 2017, 01:34 PM   #67
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As is typical, my brain bleeds trying to parse what you're saying.

Why are we even talking about "Common Defense"? That's a separate issue entirely from voting. Slow down, take a breath and try to understand one topic at a time.
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Old 17th July 2017, 01:46 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
As is typical, my brain bleeds trying to parse what you're saying.

Why are we even talking about "Common Defense"? That's a separate issue entirely from voting. Slow down, take a breath and try to understand one topic at a time.
1) In response to a statement if voting was the ends of promoting equality, you agreed equality was the whole point of the united states.

2) I brought up the constitution preamble and that one of the point's it states is provide for the common defense.

3) You agreed that the constitution is also right.

4) If one of the points is defense, then equality isn't the whole point. There is more than one point.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:28 PM   #69
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Quote:
There is more than one point.
No.

YOU are forcing "more than one point" into your stupid game that I'm not playing.


One person, one vote.

Period.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:56 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
No.

YOU are forcing "more than one point" into your stupid game that I'm not playing.


One person, one vote.

Period.
Post 736 you said both were right. As the Constitution has more than one point, you are saying there is more than one.
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Old 17th July 2017, 03:33 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
<snip>

Honestly, I don't think people in general are equipped to cast a responsible political vote, but not in our lifetime will we see restrictions placed on votes based on any kind of aptitude qualification. I keep thinking, 'there will be a gradual improvement in overall voter education and policy understanding', but then one of the major world powers elects a rank idiot as president.

<snip>

Speak for yourself, youngster.

Literacy tests and their like were still being used in Southern states well into the '60s, and were the subject of a number of Congressional attempts to get rid of them until a final SCOTUS ban in 1970.

Of course, you are thinking of completely benign aptitude tests, but until you can ensure that such tests would actually be entirely fair and balanced (a circumstance which history argues against), I'm going to use experience as a guide and vote against them.
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Old 17th July 2017, 04:13 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The Constitution says the point is to in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity. One person one vote could conflict with that.
Justice requires equality.
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Old 17th July 2017, 04:15 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Justice requires equality.
Which is why I'm not asserting it doesn't.
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Old 17th July 2017, 04:16 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Speak for yourself, youngster.

Literacy tests and their like were still being used in Southern states well into the '60s, and were the subject of a number of Congressional attempts to get rid of them until a final SCOTUS ban in 1970.

Of course, you are thinking of completely benign aptitude tests, but until you can ensure that such tests would actually be entirely fair and balanced (a circumstance which history argues against), I'm going to use experience as a guide and vote against them.
Tests like that mean you have given up on part of society when instead you should be fixing your education system.
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Old 17th July 2017, 04:20 PM   #75
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One Vote per person is the end result of having equality. What results from the vote is a separate issue but it starts from equality. Anything else starts with inequality.
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Old 17th July 2017, 04:23 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
One Vote per person is the end result of having equality. What results from the vote is a separate issue but it starts from equality. Anything else starts with inequality.
Cool. That is a concise, clear stance.

The next question is "So?" But not really in need of an answer.
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Old 17th July 2017, 05:35 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
My gut agrees with you, but then my head takes over and asks the question - 'which issues?'

What is important to you may not be important to other voters. They may be voting based purely on a single issue that is important to them, but irrelevant to you, and me, and in fact most people. I dunno, the tax on taxidermist stuffings or something. You and I may think that it's inconsequential, but to them it isn't and that's fair enough.
No, I wasn't referring to any issues that might be on the ballot (explicitly or implicitly). I was thinking of questions such as:
  • Name at least two branches of the federal government
  • How many senators does your state have
  • Who is the current vice-president

Basic stuff like that. But, again to keep me out of hot water, my head also takes precedent over my gut. Even though sometimes it's a pitched battle.
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Old 17th July 2017, 05:43 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Not necessarily. Maybe they'll get it right, this time around!
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Old 17th July 2017, 08:16 PM   #79
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When it comes to voting for President, the Constitution very clearly does not say "one person; one vote." The Constitution sets up the electoral college, which allocates votes to electors, who then vote for Prez.
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Old 17th July 2017, 10:07 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
Wait. What? Is this a bit?

I'm honestly asking. Are you serious? You should get more influence in our democratic system because you pay more taxes? Because you are better educated? Because you are younger?
Yeah. It's a proposal that has some merit. I'm not saying that the voting weight should be proportional to the number of tax dollars you pay, but that once you get above a certain minimum of federal income taxes (which doesn't need to be large), you get an extra vote. Younger and educated are quite a bit less problematic, because younger voters will be around for the consequences of the vote for much longer than the elderly and better education does correlate with better judgment. It's not a causal link and it's very far from an absolute criterion, but the correlation is clear.

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