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Old 1st April 2017, 10:01 AM   #161
Donn
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
You are rejecting my evidence as unacceptable as you recite your tired litany of "objective, non-anecdotal, white-bread-only-please" list of the limited forms of evidence you will accept.

If you reject the evidence, then (to you) there is no evidence.
Savant or no, you share not even white bread. There is no bread whatever on your table. This bread is not in any oven; its constituents have neither been reaped nor sown. It is non-bread. It is grieving for the gluten.

You bring nothing to the plate and you butter it.

If you reject baking, then there is no bread.
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Old 1st April 2017, 04:59 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
Refer to my former thread in this forum entitled "Can TOBS Defeat Radical Islamic Terrorists?" for the explanation of what TOBS (the Theory of Body Signals) is. Briefly, God communicates with us, his children, in many different ways. These include the scriptures, prophets, prayer, the Holy Ghost, etc.

I have discovered that God has another subtle method of letting us know his will. TOBS manifests as itches, muscular twitches, pains and cramps. See the former thread for a more complete discussion of this phenomenon as it relates to getting radical Islamists to stop justifying jihads.

Sometimes we are confused, uncertain, mistaken, or in error about spiritual truths, and God teaches us through the body signal system how to correct our mistakes.

An example: Sven has been in a quandary about how to discipline his unruly child. Whenever he loses patience and threatens to spank her, Sven gets a muscular twitch on his left arm. If Sven repeatedly swats his child in an impatient manner and develops a pattern of child abuse, he will get pains in his left shoulder blade, and possibly his left leg and other places. After a while he starts to justify his abuse, and the BS's get more and more painful and persistent.

So how does TOBS get Sven out of pain and back on track? There are no easy answers for him--Jesus said that he who offends a little one would be better off with a millstone tied around his neck and dropped into the sea. So Sven must repent of his abuse and endure the consequences of his actions. As he repents over time, the BS's will guide him and get his life turned around. Understanding how God's Justice, Mercy and grace work is fundamental to getting relief from chronic pain and ultimately forgiveness of our sins.

Any questions or comments?

bb

I felt I missed something in this thread, you know, the part in the thread title where this TOBS stuff relieves chronic pain. And it seems on re-reading the OP that TOBS is itself the chronic pain. Boy, this religion stuff sure is hard to understand.
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Old 1st April 2017, 05:15 PM   #163
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My knee and arm still hurt after all this nonsense.
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Old 1st April 2017, 08:17 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
Have you tried your method on yourself? If so, and it doesn't work, then why doesn't it work?
All I have to do to stop the myalgia is to rest in bed and stop thinking for about 10 minutes. So it's not too bad. To answer some other questions raised, yes I suffered a head injury as a young child. And the savant part is both musical ability and an eidetic memory. The idiot part is social disability.

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Old 1st April 2017, 08:32 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
My Dear Mr. Baxter:

Had you presented any actual evidence, any concrete, practical, testable, non-empirical, objective evidence, and had I "rejected" that, then, and only then, would your accusation be honest, or justified.
Read Moroni 10:3-5. That is the key to obtaining the proof you seek.

bb

ETA: if you ask me again for proof, I'll refer you there again.

Last edited by Billy Baxter; 1st April 2017 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 1st April 2017, 09:12 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by ferd burfle View Post
I felt I missed something in this thread, you know, the part in the thread title where this TOBS stuff relieves chronic pain. And it seems on re-reading the OP that TOBS is itself the chronic pain. Boy, this religion stuff sure is hard to understand.
Yes, I'm advancing the argument that the body signals are a built-in way that God uses as a schoolteacher to lead us to Christ and his gospel. Relief from the pain of the BS's comes as we conform to live his commandments.

bb
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Old 1st April 2017, 11:32 PM   #167
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How come you are the only person on the planet whom god communicates with in this way?

Oh, and you have no idea what proof means. I've just wasted 30 seconds of my life reading Moroni 10:3-5, and it contains nothing of any value. It has no evidence, let alone proof. Please don't refer to this crap again in a sentence which includes the words evidence or proof, except to say "I accept that this book contains no proof of anything".
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Old 2nd April 2017, 12:05 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
How come you are the only person on the planet whom god communicates with in this way?
I hypothesize that the BS's are universal--if you have a body, the body signals are built-in, like the nervous system or the circulatory system. I consider TOBS to be a major discovery. I don't know why others don't already have this knowledge.

Quote:
Oh, and you have no idea what proof means. I've just wasted 30 seconds of my life reading Moroni 10:3-5, and it contains nothing of any value. It has no evidence, let alone proof. Please don't refer to this crap again in a sentence which includes the words evidence or proof, except to say "I accept that this book contains no proof of anything".
Read it or don't--that's up to you. I do testify that the Book of Mormon is true, like the Bible.

bb
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Old 2nd April 2017, 12:28 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
Read Moroni 10:3-5. That is the key to obtaining the proof you seek.

bb

ETA: if you ask me again for proof, I'll refer you there again.
So I read it. It is proof of nothing, evidence of nothing at best, it is Moronic. Now what?
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Old 2nd April 2017, 12:38 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I hypothesize that the BS's are universal--if you have a body, the body signals are built-in, like the nervous system or the circulatory system. I consider TOBS to be a major discovery. I don't know why others don't already have this knowledge.
Then your hypothesis fails. You know others do not have these silly feelings. Here we are telling you to your face. It therefore cannot possibly be "built-in" else somebody else, anybody else, would have similar feelings. It isn't a discovery at all. Other people do not already have this "knowledge" because it isn't real.

Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
Read it or don't--that's up to you. I do testify that the Book of Mormon is true, like the Bible.

bb
Read it, found it vacuous. And?
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Old 2nd April 2017, 12:50 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I hypothesize that the BS's are universal--if you have a body, the body signals are built-in, like the nervous system or the circulatory system. I consider TOBS to be a major discovery. I don't know why others don't already have this knowledge.
But it's the revelation of your all-powerful omni-whatever god. Surely such a magnificent being's attempt at communication with the subjects so lovingly created in his own image blah blah would have a better success rate than one in 7 billion.


Quote:
Read it or don't--that's up to you.
I already told you I read it. It's crap.


Quote:
I do testify that the Book of Mormon is true, like the Bible.
Oh OK, that's convinced me. Where do I sign up for this god-adoration club?
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Old 2nd April 2017, 01:07 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
So I read it. It is proof of nothing, evidence of nothing at best, it is Moronic. Now what?
Did you pray about it with real intent and faith that God will reveal it to you? Note the words "with real intent"--God knows when you're not serious vs. when you really want to know. A testimony isn't a one-shot deal; you must grow and care for it carefully like a seedling.

I recall Alma 32 in the BofM has something to say about how this process works.
bb
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Old 2nd April 2017, 01:17 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
But it's the revelation of your all-powerful omni-whatever god. Surely such a magnificent being's attempt at communication with the subjects so lovingly created in his own image blah blah would have a better success rate than one in 7 billion.
Again: I believe TOBS to be a subtle supplementary communication, not meant to replace faith, the Holy Ghost, the scriptures or the prophets. God is truly magnificent and has many and varied means of communication. Not just TOBS.

bb
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Old 2nd April 2017, 01:34 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Then your hypothesis fails. You know others do not have these silly feelings. Here we are telling you to your face. It therefore cannot possibly be "built-in" else somebody else, anybody else, would have similar feelings. It isn't a discovery at all. Other people do not already have this "knowledge" because it isn't real.
I need to once again differentiate between the Holy Ghost and TOBS. The former is scriptural and is God's main method of communicating with man. The latter is speculation and is not proven conclusively.

bb
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Old 2nd April 2017, 01:48 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I need to once again differentiate between the Holy Ghost and TOBS. The former is scriptural and is God's main method of communicating with man. The latter is speculation and is not proven conclusively.

bb
Don't you think we know that? Is your crank idea so self unaware as to think none of us have already read the BoM and found it to be childish in extremis. Do you not realise that everyone else here finds the BoM to be but one short step away from the Chantry Guild? Are you really that naive in your thinking?
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Old 2nd April 2017, 01:59 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Don't you think we know that? Is your crank idea so self unaware as to think none of us have already read the BoM and found it to be childish in extremis. Do you not realise that everyone else here finds the BoM to be but one short step away from the Chantry Guild? Are you really that naive in your thinking?
TOBS = BB's so-called "crank idea"

The Book of Mormon = God's truth

don't confuse the two

bb
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Old 2nd April 2017, 02:07 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
TOBS = BB's so-called "crank idea"
And it is a crank idea. It is, as an idea, almost painfully naive.

Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
The Book of Mormon = God's truth
Nope. BoM is the piss poor scribblings of a convicted con man.
Don't confuse the two. That is all.
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Old 2nd April 2017, 02:12 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I never said I "have no actual evidence" of God's existence. You are rejecting my evidence as unacceptable as you recite your tired litany of "objective, non-anecdotal, white-bread-only-please" list of the limited forms of evidence you will accept.
And this is the part in every religious debate where the religious person tries to make it sound like "You won't take my religious revelations as evidence" is some narrow minded, unreasonable stance.

Of course we're bloody not going to just take your word that God is talking to you through random muscle twitches as evidence. Make all the argumentative gymnastics you want to try and make that sound like we're in the wrong you need, it will not change anything.

Your attempted demonizing of the terms objective and non-anecdotal are telling. I'm wonder exactly how you define evidence because it doesn't seem to be functionally different from "I want to get to make stuff up and not get called on it."
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Old 2nd April 2017, 02:30 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
And this is the part in every religious debate where the religious person tries to make it sound like "You won't take my religious revelations as evidence" is some narrow minded, unreasonable stance.

Of course we're bloody not going to just take your word that God is talking to you through random muscle twitches as evidence. Make all the argumentative gymnastics you want to try and make that sound like we're in the wrong you need, it will not change anything.

Your attempted demonizing of the terms objective and non-anecdotal are telling. I'm wonder exactly how you define evidence because it doesn't seem to be functionally different from "I want to get to make stuff up and not get called on it."
Again: The testimony God gave me of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness, received over the years through the HG is the evidence I was talking about. I don't seek to demonize objectivity--I'm only saying that some kinds of evidence are subjective yet valid.

bb
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Old 2nd April 2017, 02:48 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
The testimony God gave me of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness, received over the years through the HG is the evidence I was talking about.
Every religious person ever would say the same thing. All religious people consider their own personal revelations as evidence.

What you haven't provided is any reason I should see your claim of a personal revelation vice the exact same claim that any religious people could make or indeed the claim of personal revelation of any religious person.

"God spoke to me in some special magical way that only I can understand" is not evidence.
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Old 2nd April 2017, 02:51 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
And it is a crank idea. It is, as an idea, almost painfully naive.


Nope. BoM is the piss poor scribblings of a convicted con man.
Don't confuse the two. That is all.
How many times have you read the BofM? Do you believe in Christ? He is the central figure of it. He is well-able to save us from the consequences and pains of our sins. All he asks in return is to keep his commandments. The BofM instructs us how to do this. It is Another Testament of Jesus Christ, a companion volume to the Bible.

bb
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Old 2nd April 2017, 02:57 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Every religious person ever would say the same thing. All religious people consider their own personal revelations as evidence.

What you haven't provided is any reason I should see your claim of a personal revelation vice the exact same claim that any religious people could make or indeed the claim of personal revelation of any religious person.

"God spoke to me in some special magical way that only I can understand" is not evidence.
Again: the witness of the Holy Ghost is my evidence I'm citing, easily understood by all.

I'm not citing the body signals as evidence at this time.

bb
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Old 2nd April 2017, 02:59 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
How many times have you read the BofM?
Twice that I recall, possibly more if one counts reading snippets at random. What difference does that make?

Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
Do you believe in Christ?
No. What of it?
Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
He is the central figure of it.
Harry Potter is the central figure of Rowlings writings.

Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
He is well-able to save us from the consequences and pains of our sins.
Yet somehow unable to to a damn thing about your Myalgia. Why is that?

Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
All he asks in return is to keep his commandments.
Which ones? There are hundreds in differing versions. Which ones?

Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
The BofM instructs us how to do this. It is Another Testament of Jesus Christ, a companion volume to the Bible.

bb
No it isn't. BoM is a concoction of a con man who stuck his face in a hat containing a couple of rocks. The only amazing thing about the whole tale is that he found anyone gullible enough to swallow it wholesale.
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Old 2nd April 2017, 03:06 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
Again: the witness of the Holy Ghost is my evidence I'm citing, easily understood by all.
And this is nothing but straight up argument through religious revelation coached in argumentative jargon.

You are saying absolutely nothing that you can expect me to treat as evidence. Your own personal religious notions are not evidence to me.

The "easily understood by all" is just special pleading.
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Old 2nd April 2017, 03:12 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Twice that I recall, possibly more if one counts reading snippets at random. What difference does that make?

No. What of it?
Harry Potter is the central figure of Rowlings writings.

Yet somehow unable to to a damn thing about your Myalgia. Why is that?

Which ones? There are hundreds in differing versions. Which ones?

No it isn't. BoM is a concoction of a con man who stuck his face in a hat containing a couple of rocks. The only amazing thing about the whole tale is that he found anyone gullible enough to swallow it wholesale.
Actually JS translated the BofM from ancient golden plates through the gift and power of God.

The two main commandments are: love God with all your heart, might, mind and strength; and love your neighbor as yourself. On these commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

bb
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Old 2nd April 2017, 03:14 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
And this is nothing but straight up argument through religious revelation coached in argumentative jargon.

You are saying absolutely nothing that you can expect me to treat as evidence. Your own personal religious notions are not evidence to me.

The "easily understood by all" is just special pleading.
When we reject the evidence, there is no evidence.

bb
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Old 2nd April 2017, 03:17 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
Actually JS translated the BofM from ancient golden plates through the gift and power of God.

The two main commandments are: love God with all your heart, might, mind and strength; and love your neighbor as yourself. On these commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

bb
And those were written in what language?
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Old 2nd April 2017, 03:18 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I hypothesize that the BS's are universal--if you have a body, the body signals are built-in, like the nervous system or the circulatory system. I consider TOBS to be a major discovery. I don't know why others don't already have this knowledge.



Read it or don't--that's up to you. I do testify that the Book of Mormon is true, like the Bible.

bb
Your book can't possibly be true because we know it's fictional it gets the historical, physical culture and flora and fauna of the Americas completely wrong. And, might as well face it, JS got caught in a straight up lie on the whole Book of Abraham thing.
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Old 2nd April 2017, 03:19 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
When we reject the evidence, there is no evidence.

bb
You mean: when we fabricate a story and pretend it's a case study, and then when we're called on it we blame Jesus... there is no evidence.

Please just stop lying to us.
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Old 2nd April 2017, 03:20 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
Actually JS translated the BofM from ancient golden plates through the gift and power of God.

The two main commandments are: love God with all your heart, might, mind and strength; and love your neighbor as yourself. On these commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

bb
And those are not from the Bom, not even from the bible. Those are from long beforehand, before even the bible was written. Why do you not know these basic things?
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Old 2nd April 2017, 03:29 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
And those were written in what language?
The Nephites called it "reformed Egyptian."

bb
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Old 2nd April 2017, 03:36 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Your book can't possibly be true because we know it's fictional it gets the historical, physical culture and flora and fauna of the Americas completely wrong. And, might as well face it, JS got caught in a straight up lie on the whole Book of Abraham thing.
"Your book can't be true because we know it's not!"

There's a good objective mindset....

Start a thread on the BofM if you want. This thread is about TOBS and relieving pain through its application by repenting of our sins.

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Old 2nd April 2017, 03:36 AM   #193
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Listen Billy we've already had a hard core Mormon come on this board and try to do the whole Mormon missionary bit with us.

I respect that it is hard to understand how your belief system looks to an outsider looking in but it's functionally insane and you are don't a good job of defending it on an intellectual level.
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Old 2nd April 2017, 03:39 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
You mean: when we fabricate a story and pretend it's a case study, and then when we're called on it we blame Jesus... there is no evidence.

Please just stop lying to us.
I made it clear that my case study was fictional. It was an example designed to illustrate a point, nothing more.

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Old 2nd April 2017, 03:42 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
And those are not from the Bom, not even from the bible. Those are from long beforehand, before even the bible was written. Why do you not know these basic things?
Eh? Jesus gave these two commandments in the NT. They are basic to Christianity.

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Old 2nd April 2017, 03:47 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
Eh? Jesus gave these two commandments in the NT. They are basic to Christianity.
You really think a 0 Century Jewish Messiah was the first person in the history of humanity to come up with the ideas of being nice to people in your local tribe and love your deity?
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Old 2nd April 2017, 03:48 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
When we reject the evidence, there is no evidence.
When your evidence is undetectable, there is no evidence.
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Old 2nd April 2017, 03:49 AM   #198
Billy Baxter
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Listen Billy we've already had a hard core Mormon come on this board and try to do the whole Mormon missionary bit with us.

I respect that it is hard to understand how your belief system looks to an outsider looking in but it's functionally insane and you are don't a good job of defending it on an intellectual level.
I'm not a "hardcore Mormon"; I'm inactive and reclusive and don't attend church. I'm doing the best I can.

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Old 2nd April 2017, 03:52 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
You really think a 0 Century Jewish Messiah was the first person in the history of humanity to come up with the ideas of being nice to people in your local tribe and love your deity?
Christ existed since before the world began, as did the commandments and laws that govern the universe.

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Old 2nd April 2017, 03:52 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I'm not a "hardcore Mormon"; I'm inactive and reclusive and don't attend church. I'm doing the best I can.

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Regardless this is all a song we've heard sung before. If you're going to come to a place like this arguing an absurdity you can't provide the Mormon belief system as your evidence and you certainly can't do that then run behind the "But that's not what I'm hear to talk about" excuse when that doesn't work.

Right now your argument is functionally "God communicates to me through muscle twitches and my evidence is the Mormon belief system" and that's just not gonna fly.
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