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Old 26th June 2017, 05:10 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
An interesting character that Marcion and a good example of how the religious wizards will jump through hoops to be seen as being correct.




Marcion doesn't say that Yahweh is a false god just a different one that inhabited a physical body indeed. A salient point referring to some previous posts about our being made in God's image.
And where is Marcion today?
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Old 26th June 2017, 05:20 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The best way to lose faith is to read the Bible. The second best way is to study the history of the Church. The third best way is to read about other religions and realize they are just as confident in their religion as you (generic, not acbytesla) are in yours.

The more you know about things outside the bubble they built for you in Sunday School, the less likely you are to believe. The reason that reading the Bible is particularly effective is that the Bible is supposed to be on the inside of the bubble. Once you realize it's on the outside, the bubble can burst.
I asked Bobby Dylan
I asked The Beatles
I asked Timothy Leary
But he couldn't help me either


Etcetera


So don't tell me I have been in a bubble.
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Old 26th June 2017, 05:21 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Bingo. There it is. This is one of the two main reasons I stopped going to church.
And the other reason is...?
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Old 26th June 2017, 05:23 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Well said.

I had multiple discussions with my pastor about all this. His answers were that Satan had got a hold of me. And I really didn't understand what i was reading. And that faith shouldn't be put to a test. And that the religion came to be in its present form because God made it that way.

Also it was because I wanted to sin.

Every answer he gave was both condescending and disingenuous.
Find another pastor.
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Old 26th June 2017, 05:24 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Christianity has done these bad things as well. Resurrection is a promise? Yes, but is it a fulfilled promise? When a con artist tells you he can double your money that's a promise too; but is it a promise that can be fulfilled?

"People are horrible. That's why God called for a flood and only saved two of a kind of each animal". That makes God even more horrible, doesn't it? Are you sure the Bible says he saved only 2 of each kind?
If you make a perfect cake and someone leaves it out in the rain, and it's ruined and you have to throw it away, does that make YOU a horrid person?
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Old 26th June 2017, 05:26 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
And what God would that be?
The Heavenly Father.

Marcion did not believe this loving forgiveness centric God had anything in common with the Hebrew God of War Yahweh. He accepted that the Hebrew Bible was a God, but the Father was a different being. If you're interested Bart Ehrman wrote multiple books on early Christianities. Check out 'Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew'

In Lost Christianities, Bart D. Ehrman offers a fascinating look at these early forms of Christianity and shows how they came to be suppressed, reformed, or forgotten. All of these groups insisted that they upheld the teachings of Jesus and his apostles, and they all possessed writings that bore out their claims, books reputedly produced by Jesus's own followers. Modern archaeological work has recovered a number of key texts, and as Ehrman shows, these spectacular discoveries reveal religious diversity that says much about the ways in which history gets written by the winners. Ehrman's discussion ranges from considerations of various "lost scriptures"--including forged gospels supposedly written by Simon Peter, Jesus's closest disciple, and Judas Thomas, Jesus's alleged twin brother--to the disparate beliefs of such groups as the Jewish-Christian Ebionites, the anti-Jewish Marcionites, and various "Gnostic" sects. Ehrman examines in depth the battles that raged between "proto-orthodox Christians"--those who eventually compiled the canonical books of the New Testament and standardized Christian belief--and the groups they denounced as heretics and ultimately overcame.

Scrupulously researched and lucidly written, Lost Christianities is an eye-opening account of politics, power, and the clash of ideas among Christians in the decades before one group came to see its views prevail.
https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Christia.../dp/0195182499
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Old 26th June 2017, 05:27 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
And what God would that be?

One who wasn't as much of a psychotic bastard. Seriously, you have never heard of Gnosticism and its related sects?
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Old 26th June 2017, 05:29 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Can you find people treating Plato as a god? No, but you can find many people denouncing his ideas. That's very common. It is also common for people to deplore the existence of slavery in the ancient world, just as they condemn later Christian or Muslim slaveholders.
Slavery in the British world came with the discovery of the New World and the establishment of plantations. Sugar and coffee became enormously popular in C17 (cf Samuel Johnson coffee houses). The capitalists used slave labour from Africa as a convenient economic system.

It was the Christians (Wilberforce) who got it abolished.

Ex-slaver John Newman, captain of a transatlantic slave trade ship had a Christian conversion, gave up trading in slaves and wrote, 'Amazing Grace'.

Mass labour during the industrial revolution made it more economical to take on hired labour instead.
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Old 26th June 2017, 05:33 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Find another pastor.
You think he was the only pastor or priest I spoke with? Hardly. I've been to lots of churches.

But inevitably, it's just putting lipstick on a pig.
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Old 26th June 2017, 05:35 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
The triumph of "Judaizing" Christianity over Marcionism and other Gnosticisms that claimed against the God of the Old Testament had a more simple and vulgar reason: new religions without links with a traditional one were considered as atheism in Rome and severely persecuted. This is the reason why the new religions in Rome ever have a foreigner ancestor (Dyonisus, Mithra, Isis, Attis, etc.).

Further, Christianity was a Jewish sect in its origen and it was very difficult to erase all the traditional stories at the stroke of a pen. Marcion had little chance, but the dependence of the Old Testament and the strong links with Judaism were -are yet- a peeve to many Christians. Rationalism and antisemitism are the causes, sometimes mixed, of this annoyance.
It's true the Roman Catholic church adopted elements of the ancient Roman gods - themselves filched from the Greek gods - they had little of their own.

However, Marcione might be a splendid intellect, or not, and you are an admirer of his works. However, Christianity spread because the disciples and Paul's helpers travelled throughout that region building the foundations.

People became Christians because it holds an inherent truth.
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Old 26th June 2017, 05:39 PM   #371
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Wink

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Christianity has done these bad things as well. Resurrection is a promise? Yes, but is it a fulfilled promise? When a con artist tells you he can double your money that's a promise too; but is it a promise that can be fulfilled?

"People are horrible. That's why God called for a flood and only saved two of a kind of each animal". That makes God even more horrible, doesn't it? Are you sure the Bible says he saved only 2 of each kind?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you make a perfect cake and someone leaves it out in the rain, and it's ruined and you have to throw it away, does that make YOU a horrid person?
How is this answering his question or addressing the post? It isn't Vixen.
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Old 26th June 2017, 05:41 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's true the Roman Catholic church adopted elements of the ancient Roman gods - themselves filched from the Greek gods - they had little of their own.

However, Marcione might be a splendid intellect, or not, and you are an admirer of his works. However, Christianity spread because the disciples and Paul's helpers travelled throughout that region building the foundations.

People became Christians because it holds an inherent truth.
And you would know this how?
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Old 26th June 2017, 05:52 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
There is nothing special about this, except that people started to settle and develop more permanent structures. Neanderthals buried and decorated their dead, so they understood death, and possibly had some religious ideas.

The something that happened about 10,000 years ago was the end of the ice age and the consequent invention of agriculture (possibly independently in several parts of the world).

Mesolithic hunter-gatherers would have been attracted to coastal margins as they are rich environments, and limpets and cockles don't run away, so there is lots of fairly accessible protein.

Also at the end of the Ice Age, the sea level rose. In some parts of the world - the Arabian Gulf, for example, it has been estimated that there would have been a sudden flood followed by about a thousand years of sea advancing at about a kilometre a year. Something like that is going to get into the oral histories. We know that in Australia, Aboriginal cultures have preserved descriptions of events from those times, including of the flooding that created the Great Barrier Reef, and those have only been written down last century.


There is nothing supernatural about any of this. Just opportunity. If you are not farming, and have to follow your food, then you are not going to have permanent dwellings. It's hard to organise to make ritual landscapes.
The last LGM was more like 18K YBN and yes, the refugia who had retreated to more southerly climes returned to the western reaches of Europe in chase of wild horse and red deer who were attracted there (as per bones found at archeological digs).

However, problem is, the Darwinists are anxious to place man's origins in Africa because they are keen to prove Darwin's theory of evolution. Africa is where all the great apes are and, therefore, the theory has it, we must have evolved from them as they are our nearest cousins in the animal world.

But wait. If the Homo neanderthalensis were never Homo sapiens and had never been to Africa (as per DNA research) then how is it possible they evolved from African great apes if they had never left Eurasia?

In addition, if the Homo neanderthalensis interbred with Homo sapiens - which they did as it shows in our modern DNA - much to the disappointment of the Darwinists who are looking for an ape ancestor, then they must be sufficiently of a smiliar species for successful mating with fertile offspring to take place. (There is a heuristic rule that species can only breed with your own species.)

So, far from proving the evolution theory, scientists are once again perplexed by the multiregional theory, which was supposed to have been discredited.

In addition, we have no idea how accurate the dating mechanisms are (radiocarbon, carbon-15, carbon-14, potassium-argon, ESR, AMS) it might come up with XYZ number of thousands of year,s but we have no means of verifying the accuracy, as half lives of isotopes may show erratic behaviour after ABC number of thousands of years, not half-lifing as one would expect from mathematical formulae.

So really, scientific theory is not much closer to our origins than Genesis is.
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Old 26th June 2017, 05:54 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Don't forget the obvious questions about why Cain needed to be marked. Surely his parents knew him. Surely Seth could be told - oh the other man who isn't Adam is your homicidal brother.

Who did Cain marry? Who did Seth marry? It's almost as if it makes no sense.

How did the Nephilim survive the flood?
AIUI Adam and Eve were hundreds of years old and had hundreds of children.
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Old 26th June 2017, 05:57 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Africa is where all the great apes are and, therefore, the theory has it, we must have evolved from them as they are our nearest cousins in the animal world.

Amazingly enough, there is not a single thing that is correct in this quote.
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:00 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Was it the organ music?

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Surely not? You cannot surpass a belting heavy JS Bach on the organ.

Da-da da-DAH!
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:01 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Those are the obvious questions. My question was if Cain slew Abel, why didn't God strike Abel down? God clearly doesn't have a problem with killing. After all, he commands 2 she bears to slay 42 children for mocking Elisha about his bald head. You would think God wouldn't have a problem with striking down Cain for slaying his brother.

There are lots of questions. God clearly was missing a script supervisor to at least keep all of this logically consistent.
Anyone can mock.
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:03 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The last LGM was more like 18K YBN and yes, the refugia who had retreated to more southerly climes returned to the western reaches of Europe in chase of wild horse and red deer who were attracted there (as per bones found at archeological digs).

However, problem is, the Darwinists are anxious to place man's origins in Africa because they are keen to prove Darwin's theory of evolution. Africa is where all the great apes are and, therefore, the theory has it, we must have evolved from them as they are our nearest cousins in the animal world.

But wait. If the Homo neanderthalensis were never Homo sapiens and had never been to Africa (as per DNA research) then how is it possible they evolved from African great apes if they had never left Eurasia?

In addition, if the Homo neanderthalensis interbred with Homo sapiens - which they did as it shows in our modern DNA - much to the disappointment of the Darwinists who are looking for an ape ancestor, then they must be sufficiently of a smiliar species for successful mating with fertile offspring to take place. (There is a heuristic rule that species can only breed with your own species.)

So, far from proving the evolution theory, scientists are once again perplexed by the multiregional theory, which was supposed to have been discredited.

In addition, we have no idea how accurate the dating mechanisms are (radiocarbon, carbon-15, carbon-14, potassiium-argon, ESR, AMS) it might come up with XYZ number of thousands of year,s but we have no means of verifying the accuracy, as half lives of isotopes may show erratic behaviour after ABC number of thousands of years, not half-lifing as one would expect from mathematical formulae.

So really, scientific theory is not much closer to our origins than Genesis is.
I just love it when a bookkeeper pretends to know more about evolution and biology than the scientists. So informative.
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:03 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
This is exactly the question that actually led me from agnosticism/indifference to atheism:

Having been surrounded all my life by luke-warm Christians who only know the best-of chapters of the bible and believe in a feel-good Jesus, I moved to Georgia (USA) and met bible-literalists en-masse for the first time - made friends among them, fell deeply in love with one. Around that time, my twin sister also got in contact with US-inspired protestant "free churches", and she turned into a YEC.
This forced me to ponder the whole enchillada, and I came away with a personal conviction that IF you believe in the God and the divine Jesus of the Bible, THEN the only coherent, inteligent way is to accept it ALL. If you find that the Bible is not trustworthy from cover to cover, the only smart thing is to take rejection of each bit as the null hypothesis and work from there.
I then found that NO bit of the Bible could be corroborated independently of itself, and that much had to be rejected on grounds of observation, logic, irrelevance and first principles of ethics. With this, the entire Bible, and the entire idea of Yahwe/Jesus, had to go.

The believers' only other argument was what they "felt" or "knew" in their hearts - my sister would often tell me with great joy that God had directed her to do this or leave that - but a) this cannot be tested b) he never directed me, the bugger c) his directions didn't really work out all that well. (Off topic: For example, God told her to abandon her job (office assistant) and start a 3-year eductaion towards becoming a hospital nurse. After little more than a year, she had to give that up because of a latex allergy, but couldn't return to her old job easily. Instead, she married, became a housewife... Excuse me, I did not see any divine guidance in all of that, only the normal difficulties and choices and tough luck we all face.)

It works over generations, rather than individuals.
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:05 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Or. Imagine you created a perfect world and you made mankind in your image and you love what you have made with all your being, giving them wonderful foods to taste, sunshine, warmth, shelter, lots of animals for companions, cute little dachshunds and puddy-tats, etc.

Then one of your trusted angels stabs you in the back, as it were and poisons your beloved creation.
According to the story this "poison" was to make mankind more like God by teaching us knowledge of good and evil.


Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You would need to defumigate the world you made. You might destroy what was spoilt and start again, as with Noah's ark.

But still, to your great sorrow and sadness the Wicked One is still spreading mischief with murder, rape, corruption, theft,arson, fraud and deception.
If we are made in the image of God it suggests these are attributes of God too, and the Noah's Arc story supports that conclusion.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You say, 'Do you know what? I am going to save the goodies and get rid of the baddies, and then the world will be perfect once again. No more crime, disease or death'.
Humans do that too. In retrospect we generally call these instances atrocities.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sure the baddies will moan that you are a terrible creator, but, hey, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.
When it comes to the wanton destruction of human life, good people should moan about it. If they don't, maybe they're not good?

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Old 26th June 2017, 06:06 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Those are the obvious questions. My question was if Cain slew Abel, why didn't God strike Abel down? God clearly doesn't have a problem with killing. After all, he commands 2 she bears to slay 42 children for mocking Elisha about his bald head. You would think God wouldn't have a problem with striking down Cain for slaying his brother.

There are lots of questions. God clearly was missing a script supervisor to at least keep all of this logically consistent.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Anyone can mock.
Yes, and children that tease are deserving of being mauled and killed by bears.
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:06 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Assuming it is correct that the NT is not a direct outcrop/continuation of the OT in the minds of its writers:
But they had to glue something to the NT as a "prequel". It's difficult to sell a God who suddenly, in the year 16 of Emperor Tiberius's reign or so, starts taking an interest in humankind and the universe by wandering through some unimportant, semi-arid province and collecting a few fishermen and peasants as first fans. People would legitimately ask: Where were you when the first crop of barley was sown? Where were you when the first wall of Jericho was erected almost 8000 years ago? Where were you when the cities of Uruk, Memphis, Harappa signaled that "civilisation" had come upon humankind? We had been able to advance without you for thousands of years! We don't need you now.

The words of the prophets by definition have to come true. Jesus came true, as prophesised, in particular, by Isaiah ('the people who walked in darkness hath seen a great light').
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:07 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I guess God has his bad days.

God once tried to kill Moses (Exodus 4:24) but was foiled by a skillfully thrown foreskin. You would have thought killing Moses would have been a snap given God's past record of smiting.
God and Moses are like an old married couple.
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:17 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
One who wasn't as much of a psychotic bastard. Seriously, you have never heard of Gnosticism and its related sects?
Yes I have, and I even downloaded the book of Thomas and various other Gnostic books on Kindle.

One could see right away they were nothing to do with Christianity.

Whether fake or authentic.

As I said before, 'gnosticism' is an eastern technique of 'know thyself' by looking inwards'

Christianity is the complete opposite.
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:20 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The Heavenly Father.

Marcion did not believe this loving forgiveness centric God had anything in common with the Hebrew God of War Yahweh. He accepted that the Hebrew Bible was a God, but the Father was a different being. If you're interested Bart Ehrman wrote multiple books on early Christianities. Check out 'Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew'

In Lost Christianities, Bart D. Ehrman offers a fascinating look at these early forms of Christianity and shows how they came to be suppressed, reformed, or forgotten. All of these groups insisted that they upheld the teachings of Jesus and his apostles, and they all possessed writings that bore out their claims, books reputedly produced by Jesus's own followers. Modern archaeological work has recovered a number of key texts, and as Ehrman shows, these spectacular discoveries reveal religious diversity that says much about the ways in which history gets written by the winners. Ehrman's discussion ranges from considerations of various "lost scriptures"--including forged gospels supposedly written by Simon Peter, Jesus's closest disciple, and Judas Thomas, Jesus's alleged twin brother--to the disparate beliefs of such groups as the Jewish-Christian Ebionites, the anti-Jewish Marcionites, and various "Gnostic" sects. Ehrman examines in depth the battles that raged between "proto-orthodox Christians"--those who eventually compiled the canonical books of the New Testament and standardized Christian belief--and the groups they denounced as heretics and ultimately overcame.

Scrupulously researched and lucidly written, Lost Christianities is an eye-opening account of politics, power, and the clash of ideas among Christians in the decades before one group came to see its views prevail.
https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Christia.../dp/0195182499
I'll have a look. Ehrmann : now there's a good Jewish name
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:22 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Was it the organ music?
No, mine was the happy-clappy awful folk rock type of church, not the sombre organ and guilt type.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
And the other reason is...?
Redundancy.

When I realised that there is not a single thing that happens in the universe that requires the presence of a god. It is not necessary to invoke a deity in order to explain anything that happens.
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:25 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Amazingly enough, there is not a single thing that is correct in this quote.
But you are unable to say what.
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:26 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I just love it when a bookkeeper pretends to know more about evolution and biology than the scientists. So informative.
Chartered.

By royal charter.
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:33 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
But you are unable to say what.
I wouldn't assume that if I were you.
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:34 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
But you are unable to say what.
Hokulele has stated "there's not a single thing that is correct". All of it is wrong. Every single statement. None of it is right. I'm not sure how that can be made any clearer for you.
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:34 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, mine was the happy-clappy awful folk rock type of church, not the sombre organ and guilt type.

Redundancy.

When I realised that there is not a single thing that happens in the universe that requires the presence of a god. It is not necessary to invoke a deity in order to explain anything that happens.
Find a church that plays decent music.
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:38 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Find a church that plays decent music.
How about I just listen to decent music and not worry about the church?
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:40 PM   #393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor 2
I guess God has his bad days.

God once tried to kill Moses (Exodus 4:24) but was foiled by a skillfully thrown foreskin. You would have thought killing Moses would have been a snap given God's past record of smiting.


Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
God and Moses are like an old married couple.

Perhaps I am a bit thick but I cannot see your post in any way addressing mine.
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:43 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The words of the prophets by definition have to come true. Jesus came true, as prophesised, in particular, by Isaiah ('the people who walked in darkness hath seen a great light').
The Jewish people didn't and don't believe that Jesus fulfilled prophecies. Their perspective is that Matthew after the fact rewrote Mark with details inserted to demonstrate that Jesus fulfilled Jewish prophecies.

You pretend that the Gospels were eyewitness accounts, when in fact the earliest to believed to be written was Mark. 35 years minimum after Jesus was said to have been crucified.

It's very clear by how the Gospels were written that Luke and and Matthew use Mark as source material.
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:47 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Chartered.

By royal charter.
You think that makes a difference to your expertise in science?
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:48 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The Jewish people didn't and don't believe that Jesus fulfilled prophecies. Their perspective is that Matthew after the fact rewrote Mark with details inserted to demonstrate that Jesus fulfilled Jewish prophecies.

You pretend that the Gospels were eyewitness accounts, when in fact the earliest to believed to be written was Mark. 35 years minimum after Jesus was said to have been crucified.

It's very clear by how the Gospels were written that Luke and and Matthew use Mark as source material.
That's why they are called synoptic.

It's pretty much how modern day journalism works.

My grandfather died 35 years ago. I remember him well. Called me, 'Papan kulta'

Smoked a pipe, went hunting and shooting and liked vodka.
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:54 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You think that makes a difference to your expertise in science?
You were the one who brought it up as an insult.
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:56 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
How about I just listen to decent music and not worry about the church?
You generally have to pay or buy a drink if you want good live music elsewhere.
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Old 26th June 2017, 06:58 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The Jewish people didn't and don't believe that Jesus fulfilled prophecies. Their perspective is that Matthew after the fact rewrote Mark with details inserted to demonstrate that Jesus fulfilled Jewish prophecies.

You pretend that the Gospels were eyewitness accounts, when in fact the earliest to believed to be written was Mark. 35 years minimum after Jesus was said to have been crucified.

It's very clear by how the Gospels were written that Luke and and Matthew use Mark as source material.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That's why they are called synoptic.

It's pretty much how modern day journalism works.

My grandfather died 35 years ago. I remember him well. Called me, 'Papan kulta'

Smoked a pipe, went hunting and shooting and liked vodka.
This is the response to acbytesla's post?

Is it just me, or.......
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Old 26th June 2017, 07:04 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You generally have to pay or buy a drink if you want good live music elsewhere.
I see. The reason I should go to church is that the music is free.

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