ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags atheism , bible

Reply
Old 24th June 2017, 08:47 AM   #201
Zivan
Muse
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 593
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't think that's true. I was interested enough to find out more, so read the original Tyndale and Wycliffe translations. There is also a vast display of the world's sacred texts at a permanent exhibition at the British Museum, including some of the original Greek parchments.

I was brought up on the King James Version (Church of England education) and I love its poetic prose. However, you'll find that some of the Bibles around today are simply dumbed down versions of KJV and lose a lot in so doing.

The New International Version (NIV) was written by translators who went back to the original versions and translated it from scratch and is written in modern English, easy to read.
I was not speaking about "version shopping".

I was speaking of learning about actual history. And actual history of ANE religion.

The KJV and the NIV both have LOADS of mistranslations.
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 08:52 AM   #202
Zivan
Muse
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 593
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It reveals that people enjoyed idolatry. No sooner had Moses gone up the mountain than his people began building a golden calf, in remembrance of the Egyptian gods. No wonder Moses was driven to distraction.
And Moses also built an idol.....

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Bible does tend to refer to all pagan gods as Baal, regardless of their differences, just as it calls all debauched dystopias as 'Babylon', which some interpret as a reference to the Romans.
This is not true. There are other gods mentioned many times other than ba'al.

Also, none of the tanakh writers were writing about Rome.


Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The fact that primitive peoples - and many of the modern among us - worship idols doesn't mean these false gods are on a par with the one true God.
Who is the "one true God"?

Last edited by Zivan; 24th June 2017 at 09:46 AM.
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 08:57 AM   #203
Zivan
Muse
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 593
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The concept of the Holy Trinity is very easy. Just as velocity is defined as speed and direction over distance (three in one) so is the constant living interchange between Father - Son - Holy Ghost. It is physical, spiritual and moving. Just as we are.
The holy ghost impregnated Mary. Then she gave birth to Jesus, who prayed to his "Father".

Explaining all three as "three in one" sounds very tricky. Did all three impregnate Mary?
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 09:07 AM   #204
Zivan
Muse
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 593
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Our tour guide told us that in John the Baptists' day, there were up to 30,000 hermits and semi-hermits living in groups claiming to be mystics, and of course, we had the Dead Sea Scrolls discovered there and the the ruins of an ancient cult who sealed the 66 books of the Bible in clay jars.


Oh dear.

66 books?

Which would those be?

The DSS are not "66 books". Or "66" scrolls either.

This is why I said, "the information is available to EVERYONE".

Unfortunately, too many people are not interested in actually learning.....

Last edited by Zivan; 24th June 2017 at 09:41 AM.
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 09:25 AM   #205
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,691
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The fact that primitive peoples - and many of the modern among us - worship idols doesn't mean these false gods are on a par with the one true God.
It seems absurd to me that anyone could believe that their God is the true God and every other god is false. And they say atheists are arrogant. Lol. The most common phrase heard from atheists about how it all came to be is not arrogance, but a humble 'I don't know'. Religious people insist that they know and without a shred of evidence.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 09:25 AM   #206
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,169
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
The holy ghost impregnated Mary. Then she gave birth to Jesus, who prayed to his "Father".

Explaining all three as "three in one" sounds very tricky. Did all three impregnate Mary?

They didn't call her hoe-ly for nothing
__________________
I AM THE DREADED PAPIER-MÂCHÉ CENSOR!
------------------------------------------------
I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds.
----------------------------------------------
Proud woo denier
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 09:33 AM   #207
epeeist
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 342
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
We agree on some things and obviously not on others. I agree to a point that belief is not a choice. But it can be a decision. 'Act as if ye have faith and faith will be given.' In other words, if you can get people to dispense with critical thinking you can get them to believe anything.

31 % of Americans believe that Donald Trump is trustworthy. Never mind that he can hardly get through a paragraph without lying. Never mind the trail of lies and broken promises. More than half of America believed that Iraq was behind the attacks on 911 even though all but two of them were Saudis and none were Iraqis.

I don't preach to Christians, but I'm not going to just sit idly by while people attribute the grandeur of this world to God or try and inflict their beliefs on me and mine. Or try and pass laws that suggest creationism should be taught in science classes. Religion is losing its power and influence. Thank God. I want to help in that process.


I think this is a crock. It's an excuse for cognitive dissonance. You just said belief is not a choice so there is no free will in your story either.

I believe what I can see touch, smell, taste or what can be demonstrated to me. On every single thing I use reason to believe its validity and I'm sure you do too with just this exception.

Here we are faced with what the religious suggest is the most important claim and what is offered to man is only revelations made 2000 years ago? No different than thousands of other God claims. Your God doesn't reward the good but the gullible. You kick our supposed god given faculties to the curb. I don't think an all powerful being would give me this great brain and then order me not to use it or face eternal torture.

Sorry, that's seems absurd to me..

Reason, it works. Try it.
[emphasis added]

Given the numbers of pages this thread has grown to, I'm only touching on a few things, I picked 3.

1. I don't understand your distinction between choice and decision.

2. Political ignorance on an individual basis is rational (for the typical voter, given the negligible effect on outcomes of individual votes) - it's just that unfortunately it has large-scale effects. And - not that it's a choice - if someone has no control or choice over something, isn't a belief that makes them happier rational? (again, not that it's a choice, but if it were, or whatever you mean about it being a decision).

3. Some Christians vilify atheists (or non-Christians generally with some possible exceptions e.g. pre-Christian pagans, Jews, etc.). I (and my religion) do not. It is sinful to knowingly reject God (i.e. believe in but reject God) but it is not sinful to not believe in God, or believe in a different religion, or whatever.
epeeist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 11:01 AM   #208
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,691
Originally Posted by epeeist View Post
[emphasis added]

Given the numbers of pages this thread has grown to, I'm only touching on a few things, I picked 3.

1. I don't understand your distinction between choice and decision.
Really? I thought it was as clear as mud. I doubt this will make it any clearer, but what the hell.

I did not choose to not believe in God. I don't and neither will I ever decide to believe in God. Decide in fact means the killing of the alternatives. You didn't have to believe in God to be a member of our church but you did have to decide to accept him as the savior. How many times have I heard 'it's OK, that you don't believe at the moment. Everyone has doubts at times. Its all about making the decision to believe and eventually you will.

If that seems like crap to you, then you know how I felt.


Originally Posted by epeeist View Post
2. Political ignorance on an individual basis is rational (for the typical voter, given the negligible effect on outcomes of individual votes) - it's just that unfortunately it has large-scale effects. And - not that it's a choice - if someone has no control or choice over something, isn't a belief that makes them happier rational? (again, not that it's a choice, but if it were, or whatever you mean about it being a decision).
I really don't understand that. I'm talking about cognitive dissonance and willful ignorance. Now, I understand the believing that the Iraqis were behind 911. Since that was the intent of the Bush administration propoganda. Almost every time they said 911 they also mentioned Iraq. By clever language and constant repetition it had its impact on the ignorant. It was a masterful propaganda tactic. Trump OTOH, mystified me. His dishonesty is so blatant and nonstop.

Originally Posted by epeeist View Post
3. Some Christians vilify atheists (or non-Christians generally with some possible exceptions e.g. pre-Christian pagans, Jews, etc.). I (and my religion) do not. It is sinful to knowingly reject God (i.e. believe in but reject God) but it is not sinful to not believe in God, or believe in a different religion, or whatever.
I don't vilify all Christians, but I absolutely vilify some and definitely vilify the religion in the sense that there is no reason to believe it is true, it's foundation being the immoral Yahweh of the OT, and the idea of Hell. I have a monster problem with the whole resurrection story. The idea of an all powerful being requiring human sacrifice is blatantly ridiculous.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 02:21 PM   #209
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor 2
No according to your beliefs I have not. I am not one of your chosen few and arrive at my beliefs through reason.

Now who is to blame for my being driven by reason and not by some pre-installed inclination to believe stuff that defies reason?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Evolutionary forces, probably.

Typical Christian cop out.

So your god has no control over evolutionary forces then?
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.

Last edited by Thor 2; 24th June 2017 at 02:22 PM.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 02:28 PM   #210
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,691
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Typical Christian cop out.

So your god has no control over evolutionary forces then?
God is responsible for everything. Except when he's not.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 02:34 PM   #211
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,375
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
God is responsible for everything. Except when he's not.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 02:46 PM   #212
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,375
I suppose we should not be surprised by the evasive replies given by the faithful when they get their inspiration from the words of Jesus himself.

Looking at the account given by Luke when Jesus was asked a simple question:

Quote:
22He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?”
His reply:

Quote:
And he said to them, 24“Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ 28In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. 29And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God. 30And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.”
Would not a simple yes or no have sufficed?

On the other hand he can't let the opportunity to rub it in about the weeping and gnashing of teeth stuff.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 02:49 PM   #213
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Typical Christian cop out.

So your god has no control over evolutionary forces then?
Human existence - hominids - goes back circa 250K years to Lucy, an AUSTRALOPITHECUS AFRICANUS itself a split from the chimpanzee branch of primates, five million years ago. Neanderthalis hominids died out some 50K years ago. Mankind proper since and before that time lived in neolithic/cro-magnon caves (for example, Cheddar Gorge, Denisova, Montana Clovis, Hohlenstein-Stadel) like brute beasts, with every day a fight for survival, in common with the animal kingdom.

For circa 200,000 years homo sapiens lived beastly brutish lives. It was each man for himself, then each family for itself, then each tribe. It was dog eat dog. Those Israelites wandering the desert had to fight and kill off the predators (Amalkites, etc) - it was everybody's only means of defence - and survival - was to kill the other tribe before it killed you and raped your women. Of course the early Old Testament is a riot of violence. Homo sapiens are a violent bunch and we are still at it - warring against each other - today. Why would the Bible be a book of lovey dovey Mills & Boons fluff? It was savage man-savage beast.

But something strange happened about 10,000 years ago (neolithic man). We began to become civilised. We became artistic and this coinicided with organised religion with people given burial rituals. We see religious thought amongst the Ancient Egyptians, said to be man's oldest civilisation. They began to query their place in the universe, invented hieroglyphics, described creation myths, such as osirus, believed in an afterlife and left utilities and ornaments in with the mummifed remains (admittedly, only for the ruling classes). Egypt only goes back 7,000 years.

So you see, religious and artistic thought (including writing, language and the development of maths, astronomy and philosophy) are all associated with the evolution of higher thought processes.

So yes, religion, namely Christianity is the result of high level evolution of the brain. Why Christianity? Because there is no primitive superstition or idolatory.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11

Last edited by Vixen; 24th June 2017 at 02:54 PM.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 02:53 PM   #214
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
God is responsible for everything. Except when he's not.
Humankind has been given free will. We can choose to do evil or we can choose to do good. It is as simple as that.

If a man chooses to do evil, why blame God?
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 02:57 PM   #215
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I suppose we should not be surprised by the evasive replies given by the faithful when they get their inspiration from the words of Jesus himself.

Looking at the account given by Luke when Jesus was asked a simple question:



His reply:



Would not a simple yes or no have sufficed?

On the other hand he can't let the opportunity to rub it in about the weeping and gnashing of teeth stuff.

It is the standard rabbinical method to use parables. Jesus was a rabbi.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 03:00 PM   #216
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,691
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Human existence - hominids - goes back circa 250K years to Lucy, an AUSTRALOPITHECUS AFRICANUS itself a split from the chimpanzee branch of primates, five million years ago. Neanderthalis hominids died out some 50K years ago. Mankind proper since and before that time lived in neolithic/cro-magnon caves (for example, Cheddar Gorge, Denisova, Montana Clovis, Hohlenstein-Stadel) like brute beasts, with every day a fight for survival, in common with the animal kingdom.

For circa 200,000 years homo sapiens lived beastly brutish lives. It was each man for himself, then each family for itself, then each tribe. It was dog eat dog. Those Israelites wandering the desert had to fight and kill off the predators (Amalkites, etc) - it was everybody's only means of defence - and survival - was to kill the other tribe before it killed you and raped your women. Of course the early Old Testament is a riot of violence. Homo sapiens are a violent bunch and we are still at it - warring against each other - today. Why would the Bible be a book of lovey dovey Mills & Boons fluff? It was savage man-savage beast.

But something strange happened about 10,000 years ago (neolithic man). We began to become civilised. We became artistic and this coinicided with organised religion with people given burial rituals. We see religious thought amongst the Ancient Egyptians, said to be man's oldest civilisation. They began to query their place in the universe, invented hieroglyphics, described creation myths, such as osirus, believed in an afterlife and left utilities and ornaments in with the mummifed remains (admittedly, only for the ruling classes). Egypt only goes back 7,000 years.

So you see, religious and artistic thought (including writing, language and the development of maths, astronomy and philosophy) are all associated with the evolution of higher thought processes.

So yes, religion, namely Christianity is the result of high level evolution of the brain. Why Christianity? Because there is no primitive superstition or idolatory.
What a joke. What do you call slavery, torture and human sacrifice and a plagiarized resurrection story? This is the highest evolution of the human brain? Get serious.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 03:02 PM   #217
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,691
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Humankind has been given free will. We can choose to do evil or we can choose to do good. It is as simple as that.

If a man chooses to do evil, why blame God?
What about when God told man to do evil?
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 03:08 PM   #218
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What a joke. What do you call slavery, torture and human sacrifice and a plagiarized resurrection story? This is the highest evolution of the human brain? Get serious.
Slavery can be traced back to ancient Arabic and Egyptian cultures. It is an aspect of how nasty people can be. People are horrible. That's why God called for a flood and only saved two of a kind of each animal.

Torture, ditto. Sacrifice is typical of pre-Christian pagan practices.

Our species have long been a bunch of barbarians.

Resurrection is a promise. That's why Christian burials align facing west-east.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 03:09 PM   #219
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What about when God told man to do evil?
God tells people to do good.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 03:49 PM   #220
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,375
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Human existence - hominids - goes back circa 250K years to Lucy, an AUSTRALOPITHECUS AFRICANUS itself a split from the chimpanzee branch of primates, five million years ago. Neanderthalis hominids died out some 50K years ago. Mankind proper since and before that time lived in neolithic/cro-magnon caves (for example, Cheddar Gorge, Denisova, Montana Clovis, Hohlenstein-Stadel) like brute beasts, with every day a fight for survival, in common with the animal kingdom.

For circa 200,000 years homo sapiens lived beastly brutish lives. It was each man for himself, then each family for itself, then each tribe. It was dog eat dog. Those Israelites wandering the desert had to fight and kill off the predators (Amalkites, etc) - it was everybody's only means of defence - and survival - was to kill the other tribe before it killed you and raped your women. Of course the early Old Testament is a riot of violence. Homo sapiens are a violent bunch and we are still at it - warring against each other - today. Why would the Bible be a book of lovey dovey Mills & Boons fluff? It was savage man-savage beast.

But something strange happened about 10,000 years ago (neolithic man). We began to become civilised. We became artistic and this coinicided with organised religion with people given burial rituals. We see religious thought amongst the Ancient Egyptians, said to be man's oldest civilisation. They began to query their place in the universe, invented hieroglyphics, described creation myths, such as osirus, believed in an afterlife and left utilities and ornaments in with the mummifed remains (admittedly, only for the ruling classes). Egypt only goes back 7,000 years.

So you see, religious and artistic thought (including writing, language and the development of maths, astronomy and philosophy) are all associated with the evolution of higher thought processes.

So yes, religion, namely Christianity is the result of high level evolution of the brain. Why Christianity? Because there is no primitive superstition or idolatory.

Well thanks for the lesson about evolution - about which I do have a smattering of knowledge. Your last paragraph did cause a sharp intake of breath however, and I wonder if you can refer me to a source for this inspiration.

Nice to know that you are not a young Earth creationist, although I wonder how you blend this with the idea of being made in the image of God, men having souls, and original sin. Inevitably we must come to the thorny question of “when was the first soul?”.

If the possession of a soul is the thing that distinguishes humans from animals, as I assume you believe, then as both evolved from a common source, at some point along the path of development God must have decided, “OK this man looks enough like me now so he gets a soul”, and then selects a woman resembling his female side who gets one as well. This original soul-equipped couple then go and eat apples, or have sex, so original sin is committed and things are right on track.

Is this the way you think it happened and if not how?
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 03:52 PM   #221
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,691
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
God tells people to do good.
Yea..,right.
Quote:
And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun....

32,000 virgins are to be taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside as a tribute for the Lord.

utterly destroy" and show "no mercy" to those whom he gives them for defeat.

In the cities of the nations the Lord is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes."

You are allowed to take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go.

The Lord orders horses to be hamstrung.

Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." They do so and find four hundred young virgins whom they bring back for their own use.

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass

Everyone who is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their ... wives will be ravished."

Happy will be the man who dashes your little ones against the stones
.

Sure, none of this is evil.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 04:04 PM   #222
Zivan
Muse
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 593
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Why Christianity? Because there is no primitive superstition or idolatory.
None of this is superstition?

Magical god

Magical half-man/half-god

"Holy Ghost"

Angels

The devil ("god of this world")

Ceremonial eating of flesh/blood of god-man

Human sacrifice

Hell

Heaven

Magic god impregnates human female

Human female gives birth to god-man

MUST believe all of the above or be tortured in Hell forever

Etc...........


Noooooo. Nothing superstitious about that at all.......

Last edited by Zivan; 24th June 2017 at 04:15 PM.
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 04:05 PM   #223
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,676
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Human existence - hominids - goes back circa 250K years to Lucy, an AUSTRALOPITHECUS AFRICANUS
Oh fork me. You don't even read the links you post to support your claims.
__________________
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away, it's not coming back.
John Jones is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 04:06 PM   #224
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,691
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Slavery can be traced back to ancient Arabic and Egyptian cultures. It is an aspect of how nasty people can be. People are horrible. That's why God called for a flood and only saved two of a kind of each animal.
Nonsense. First of all, the Noah story is clearly stolen from Gilgamesh. And what kind of God punishes animals for what man may have done? And God orders the Jewish people to take slaves.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Torture, ditto. Sacrifice is typical of pre-Christian pagan practices.

Our species have long been a bunch of barbarians.
What are you talking about? How could it be pre-Christian when Christ is a human
sacrifice?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Resurrection is a promise. That's why Christian burials align facing west-east.
What does this have to do with the absurdity of a powerful being coming to earth in the body of his son to create a loophole for man to satisfy rules that God, he himself made?

If God wanted to forgive man, why didn't he just do that without the convoluted nonsense?
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume

Last edited by acbytesla; 24th June 2017 at 04:10 PM.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 04:12 PM   #225
Zivan
Muse
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 593
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If a man chooses to do evil, why blame God?
According to the bible, God created evil. Man did not create evil, so why blame man for something God created?

(And no, I am not talking about your "devil/wicked one").

YHVH created evil. Full stop.

Last edited by Zivan; 24th June 2017 at 04:13 PM.
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 04:12 PM   #226
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,676
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is the standard rabbinical method to use parables. Jesus was a rabbi.
No, Jesus was a Mexican gardener. Who are you talking about? Obviously nobody with a contemporary historical account.
__________________
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away, it's not coming back.
John Jones is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 04:15 PM   #227
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,676
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Slavery can be traced back to ancient Arabic and Egyptian cultures. It is an aspect of how nasty people can be. People are horrible. That's why God called for a flood and only saved two of a kind of each animal.

Couldn't He have just called for an end to slavery and barbarity?
__________________
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away, it's not coming back.
John Jones is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 04:20 PM   #228
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,691
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Couldn't He have just called for an end to slavery and barbarity?
You would think that if God that could tell us not to eat clams or bacon could tell us not to own human beings as property. Particularly after delivering the Jewish people out of bondage.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 04:22 PM   #229
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,676
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You would think that if God that could tell us not to eat clams or bacon could tell us not to own human beings as property. Particularly after delivering the Jewish people out of bondage.
He did tell them that they couldn't keep other Hebrews as perpetual slaves, so He gets partial credit for that - except He didn't tell them until after He scoured the earth of almost all life. What a bastard! Reminds me of my own despicable father.
__________________
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away, it's not coming back.

Last edited by John Jones; 24th June 2017 at 04:25 PM.
John Jones is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 04:23 PM   #230
Zivan
Muse
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 593
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Slavery can be traced back to ancient Arabic and Egyptian cultures. It is an aspect of how nasty people can be. People are horrible. That's why God called for a flood and only saved two of a kind of each animal.
Sooo, God got all wrath-y and killed off every living thing on the planet, including innocent people, animals, babies, EVERYTHING except the magical, mythical Ark.

And that still had NOTHING to do with slavery, which continued.......

Do you READ what you post before you post it?
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 04:28 PM   #231
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well thanks for the lesson about evolution - about which I do have a smattering of knowledge. Your last paragraph did cause a sharp intake of breath however, and I wonder if you can refer me to a source for this inspiration.

Nice to know that you are not a young Earth creationist, although I wonder how you blend this with the idea of being made in the image of God, men having souls, and original sin. Inevitably we must come to the thorny question of “when was the first soul?”.

If the possession of a soul is the thing that distinguishes humans from animals, as I assume you believe, then as both evolved from a common source, at some point along the path of development God must have decided, “OK this man looks enough like me now so he gets a soul”, and then selects a woman resembling his female side who gets one as well. This original soul-equipped couple then go and eat apples, or have sex, so original sin is committed and things are right on track.

Is this the way you think it happened and if not how?
I haven't the foggiest idea what 'the soul' is.

IMV if God made man in his image and I don't doubt it, he is surely referring to the civilised man of the last 10K years and not a tree-swinging beast.

Did we ever evolve from lower animals? The theory's elegant but there is no proof of it. No missing link has ever been found between us and the chimpanzee.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 04:31 PM   #232
Zivan
Muse
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 593
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
He did tell them that they couldn't keep other Hebrews as perpetual slaves, so He gets partial credit for that -
Unless the master pierced the ear of the hebrew slave. Then the pierced-ear hebrew was a slave forever.
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 04:35 PM   #233
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,691
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
He did tell them that they couldn't keep other Hebrews as perpetual slaves, so He gets partial credit for that - except He didn't tell them until after He scoured the earth of almost all life. What a bastard! Reminds me of my own despicable father.
If I'm not mistaken, he does and he doesn't. That letting them go in the seventh year only applies to males. And if the master gives you a wife and you have children you must leave them with the master.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 04:35 PM   #234
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
None of this is superstition?

Magical god

Magical half-man/half-god

"Holy Ghost"

Angels

The devil ("god of this world")

Ceremonial eating of flesh/blood of god-man

Human sacrifice

Hell

Heaven

Magic god impregnates human female

Human female gives birth to god-man

MUST believe all of the above or be tortured in Hell forever

Etc...........


Noooooo. Nothing superstitious about that at all.......
What are you talking about? There is no 'human sacrifice'. As for church services, we follow the Jewish tradition of reenacting events. Thus, the bread and wine at Holy Communion is a reenactment of Jesus saying to his disciples, do this in remembrance of me. Ditto, the Palm Sunday march is a recreation of Jesus' entrance into Jerusalem for Passover.

No, when you die, you die. Come judgement day, that's when the dead will rise up and be judged.

God gave his only begotten son to the world to save us all from death. He purchased us with a ransom over the Wicked One and the good news for mankind for is that no more are we condemned to die the inauspicious death of a beast but have the promise of everlasting life, because of God's mercy.

Nobody is forced to take it.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 04:37 PM   #235
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,676
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
[...] No missing link has ever been found between us and the chimpanzee.

Don't anyone take this bait.

If you provide a 'missing link' between chimps and Homo spp, you'll open up two more gaps. One between chimps and the 'missing link', and one between the 'missing link' and Homo spp.

It's the 'God of the Gaps' argument.
__________________
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away, it's not coming back.
John Jones is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 04:40 PM   #236
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Nonsense. First of all, the Noah story is clearly stolen from Gilgamesh. And what kind of God punishes animals for what man may have done? And God orders the Jewish people to take slaves.

What are you talking about? How could it be pre-Christian when Christ is a human
sacrifice?



What does this have to do with the absurdity of a powerful being coming to earth in the body of his son to create a loophole for man to satisfy rules that God, he himself made?

If God wanted to forgive man, why didn't he just do that without the convoluted nonsense?
Has it never occurred to you that the reason the Flood story is prominent in several culture's accounts, is because it is an historical event that actually happened?

Ancient historians now believe a great flood did indeed occur around the River Euphrates mouth, circa five thousand years ago. Noah may have been wise enough to foresee it and take steps to build his ark. People no doubt did see it as a 'punishment from God' as people often do perceive natural disasters as such.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 04:41 PM   #237
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Couldn't He have just called for an end to slavery and barbarity?
No, because if you recall, Adam and Eve chose free will.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 04:44 PM   #238
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,676
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What are you talking about? There is no 'human sacrifice'.
*Cough* Jesus H Christ his own self. If you're denying his humanity and/or his sacrifice, you're not a christian.
__________________
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away, it's not coming back.
John Jones is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 04:48 PM   #239
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,784
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
According to the bible, God created evil. Man did not create evil, so why blame man for something God created?

(And no, I am not talking about your "devil/wicked one").

YHVH created evil. Full stop.
No, that is incorrect. God has a band of angels and one, on a par with the archangels, Michael and Gabriel who resided in the second heaven, Lucifer, decided he wanted to be in the third heaven with God and attempted to oust him. He and one third of the angels were expelled from heaven and now roam the earth.

Imagine you create a perfect lego world and some evil little kid comes along and spoils it by knocking a few pieces over. You can either knock down the whole lot and start again, or try to eliminate the spoilt bits. This was the problem facing God when Lucifer unleashed his evil on God's perfect world and enticed humans to eat of the tree of good and evil, giving them the capacity to exercise good or evil.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2017, 04:49 PM   #240
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,691
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I haven't the foggiest idea what 'the soul' is.

IMV if God made man in his image and I don't doubt it, he is surely referring to the civilised man of the last 10K years and not a tree-swinging beast.

Did we ever evolve from lower animals? The theory's elegant but there is no proof of it. No missing link has ever been found between us and the chimpanzee.
There really needs to be a face palm for such ignorance. There are lots of missing links. How much evidence do you need.?

Quote:
The evidence supporting the idea that all living things are descended from a common ancestor is truly overwhelming. I would not necessarily wish that to be so, as a Bible-believing Christian. But it is so. It does not serve faith well to try to deny that.

Yes, evolution by descent from a common ancestor is clearly true. If there was any lingering doubt about the evidence from the fossil record, the study of DNA provides the strongest possible proof of our relatedness to all other living things.


Frances Collins Director of the human genome project
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:54 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.