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Tags Affordable Care Act , AHCA , donald trump , health care issues , health insurance issues , obamacare , Trumpcare

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Old 27th June 2017, 06:23 AM   #41
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Well it's not killing, so I guess we are fine then?
Stop bringing morality and ethics into it. You don't do that in your own words, so stop using an argument that relies on morality and ethics.
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Old 27th June 2017, 06:26 AM   #42
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KellyAnne says all those people who are going to lose their Medicaid coverage can just get jobs with insurance.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b05c37bb770cb7

Since most are already employed, I'm sure they'll have no problem getting a second job that has the insurance coverage that the first job doesn't have.
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Old 27th June 2017, 06:27 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Stop bringing morality and ethics into it. You don't do that in your own words, so stop using an argument that relies on morality and ethics.
It isn't related to ethics. Whether something is killing or not is merely a question of logic.

Whether the killing is right or wrong is the moral question, not if it is or is not killing.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 27th June 2017 at 06:29 AM.
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Old 27th June 2017, 07:27 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
KellyAnne says all those people who are going to lose their Medicaid coverage can just get jobs with insurance.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b05c37bb770cb7

Since most are already employed, I'm sure they'll have no problem getting a second job that has the insurance coverage that the first job doesn't have.
I can imagine the job adverts, 15hr a week and we cover one kidney. Just need a few well chosen jobs and you'll be able to get 95% of your body covered.
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Old 27th June 2017, 07:32 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I can imagine the job adverts, 15hr a week and we cover one kidney. Just need a few well chosen jobs and you'll be able to get 95% of your body covered.
Kidney disease is actually the only one we have national health coverage for, thanks to Nixon.

https://www.nap.edu/read/1793/chapter/6

This is why I know I will never live to see a president as liberal as Nixon.
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Old 27th June 2017, 07:45 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
The hell?
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Old 27th June 2017, 07:47 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
This seems like literally choosing to kill poor people so that the ultra rich can pay less in taxes.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...usands-w489867

Quote:
But then there's that 26,500 figure – the conservative estimate of the number of Americans who would die every year under an Obamacare repeal plan like the one currently before the Senate. (Other studies put the number even higher.) We know this because of research conducted in the mid-2000s in Massachusetts, which was the first state to enact a program designed to insure everyone. After the program was fully implemented, researchers determined that for every 830 people who gained health insurance, there was one less death per year.
One fewer death. Sheesh, proofreading, folks!
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Old 27th June 2017, 07:50 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
How can that be a problem? It's a core principle of Capitalism!
I know you are being sarcastic, but it really isn’t. Adam Smith was vehemently opposed to the corporations of his day, specifically for this reason.

Milton Friedman conveniently and selectively presumed the corporate structure was just legal fiction and without any real supporting evidence said that corporate executives would work in the best interests of “the owners” that being the shareholders. Even if he’d presented an actual case or argument for this, it’s pretty clear at this point he was wrong.
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Old 27th June 2017, 07:53 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
Trump's idea for making America great again is sick!
Make America sick again!
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Old 27th June 2017, 07:59 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
The hell?
Not sure. I copy and pasted a post from the old thread, it reads normally for me.
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Old 27th June 2017, 08:01 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Trump may be a turd but let's be fair - this wasn't actually his idea.

Truth is, Trump bought into the lies about 'Obamacare' and figured that with his business acumen he could do much better. So the idea was great, but the reality is sick.
The entire Republican Party has grown up on lies/propaganda and believe there is some magic solution involving tax cuts and deregulation that can make anything/everything better.

The problem is that this propaganda was never intended to be policy it was a way to get elected by promising voters they could have their cake and eat it too. The current generation never got that memo and are continually shocked at the consequences of trying to implement policy based on it. Never fear though, they can always just blame Democrats for the failure of these policies!
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Old 27th June 2017, 08:43 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Well it's not killing, so I guess we are fine then?
You know what was meant, but yes technically it's more allowing people to die unnecessarily.

Like when the cook accidentally ends up on fire, and the rich guy with 3 mansions, 6 sports cars, and 100 million dollars doesn't use the fire extinguisher to save them because then they'd have to pay to refill it.
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Old 27th June 2017, 09:04 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
You know what was meant, but yes technically it's more allowing people to die unnecessarily.

Like when the cook accidentally ends up on fire, and the rich guy with 3 mansions, 6 sports cars, and 100 million dollars doesn't use the fire extinguisher to save them because then they'd have to pay to refill it.
I'm pretty sure the person meant killing.
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Old 27th June 2017, 10:11 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
You know what was meant, but yes technically it's more allowing people to die unnecessarily.

Like when the cook accidentally ends up on fire, and the rich guy with 3 mansions, 6 sports cars, and 100 million dollars doesn't use the fire extinguisher to save them because then they'd have to pay to refill it.
OK, that's a little more directly contributing to the cook's death, but I understand your point. The question is, how far can you take such logic?

If a man dies on his middle-of-nowhere ranch because the ambulance couldn't get to him on time because he was so far away, did "we" kill him because we refuse to pay to have ambulances within 2 minutes of every living person?

If a kid dies of starvation in Africa, did we kill that kid because we don't donate to the cause or insist that our government, the richest in the world, send enough aid to feed everyone?

If a neighborhood kid is dying of cancer and you don't buy the barbecue plate to contribute to his out-of-pocket costs, are you effectively killing him?

If you support having other people's taxes raised -but not your own- in order to pay for healthcare, aren't you, in effect, refusing to help pay to prevent all those deaths?
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Old 27th June 2017, 10:16 AM   #55
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Repubs are claiming that the ACA is dying because health insurance companies have withdrawn from 47 (or some other number) counties, meaning residents of those counties can't get individual coverage.

Why would insurers issue -- or be allowed to issue -- coverage by counties? Counties in the U.S. are arbitrary land areas that have nothing to do with population or anything else. Los Angeles County or Cook County (Chicago) have millions of people; rural counties in the Midwest or South might have a few hundred (at least one has fewer than 100). Why not just require insurers to offer identical policies throughout a state? How would that affect the insurance market?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County..._United_States
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Old 27th June 2017, 10:25 AM   #56
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Just because Trump promised up and down to repeal Obamacare and replace it with something that would provide more services for less costs and lower deductibles, that does not mean that Trump is a liar when he made all of those promises. After all, Trump was not actually under oath when he made these promises, therefore legally speaking Trump is not a liar.

But in all practicality, Trump is about the biggest liar in the world.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.e5f871a42f1e

Quote:
...

In a Washington Post interview before his inauguration, Trump distilled his vision for health care into a few visionary goals.

“We’re going to have insurance for everybody,” he said. “There was a philosophy in some circles that if you can’t pay for it, you don’t get it. That’s not going to happen with us.”

...

Trump said he was close to finishing a plan of his own that would have “lower numbers, much lower deductibles.”

...
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Old 27th June 2017, 10:37 AM   #57
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Quote:
Trump said he was close to finishing a plan of his own that would have “lower numbers, much lower deductibles.”
Lemme guess - ready in 2 or 3 weeks?
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Old 27th June 2017, 11:11 AM   #58
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And yet more "winning"

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/27/politi...yed/index.html

Delayed. HAHA Dumbasses.
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Old 27th June 2017, 11:22 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
OK, that's a little more directly contributing to the cook's death, but I understand your point. The question is, how far can you take such logic?

If a man dies on his middle-of-nowhere ranch because the ambulance couldn't get to him on time because he was so far away, did "we" kill him because we refuse to pay to have ambulances within 2 minutes of every living person?

If a kid dies of starvation in Africa, did we kill that kid because we don't donate to the cause or insist that our government, the richest in the world, send enough aid to feed everyone?

If a neighborhood kid is dying of cancer and you don't buy the barbecue plate to contribute to his out-of-pocket costs, are you effectively killing him?

If you support having other people's taxes raised -but not your own- in order to pay for healthcare, aren't you, in effect, refusing to help pay to prevent all those deaths?
It's almost like we need some sort of universal system to ensure basic healthcare for everyone in an efficient manner. If only such a thing existed.

I do get what you're saying though and there is a reasonable limit to what can be done.

But in this case the man already has ambulance services close enough to help, that African kid already has enough food, and that other kid had his cancer expenses covered. We're just going to take it away from them now so the ultra wealthy get a tax cut.
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Old 27th June 2017, 11:49 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
And yet more "winning"

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/27/politi...yed/index.html

Delayed. HAHA Dumbasses.
That probably explains the "gonna bomb Syria if they use gas again" chatter. Pure distraction.
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Old 27th June 2017, 11:55 AM   #61
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The stupid, idiotic, lying, horribly greedy Republicans have decided to delay the vote on their wonderful health care regulation which designed to provide tax breaks to the few rich people by removing health care for many of the people who are not rich.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/senate-re...180243185.html

Senate Republicans suddenly delay health care vote

Quote:
WASHINGTON — Senate Republican leaders abruptly decided to delay a vote on their plan to begin voting on a sweeping and controversial overhaul of the nation’s health care system.

...

McConnell had also repeatedly vowed to push through the bill before the end of the week. Sen. Roy Blunt, R-Mo., another member of Senate leadership, told reporters that the odds of passing the legislation would not get better with time.

But they apparently lacked the votes.

...
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Old 27th June 2017, 11:57 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
And yet more "winning"

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/27/politi...yed/index.html

Delayed. HAHA Dumbasses.
Good news, sort of. The delay says they can't pass it. The delay might just be waiting for less attention on the issue so they can get it passed like the House did.
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Old 27th June 2017, 12:07 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
It's almost like we need some sort of universal system to ensure basic healthcare for everyone in an efficient manner. If only such a thing existed.
In the US it doesn't and it's naive to think we can just import something from elsewhere and it will just work.

Quote:
I do get what you're saying though and there is a reasonable limit to what can be done.

But in this case the man already has ambulance services close enough to help, that African kid already has enough food, and that other kid had his cancer expenses covered. We're just going to take it away from them now so the ultra wealthy get a tax cut.
That is a good point and that's why it's so hard to take away benefits once you confer them. But I would not characterize deciding to take a benefit away as the same thing as causing someone to suffer. To continue the analogy, if it costs $5000/month to keep an ambulance close to this guy's ranch on the off-chance that he needs it, I think it's only fair to ask him to shoulder some of that load or decide that those $5000 could be more efficiently used elsewhere. If that African kid is fed but people in our own country are not, I don't think it's immoral to decide not to send money to Africa so that we can take care of problems here. Resources are limited and hard decisions have to be made.
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Old 27th June 2017, 12:10 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
In the US it doesn't and it's naive to think we can just import something from elsewhere and it will just work.



That is a good point and that's why it's so hard to take away benefits once you confer them. But I would not characterize deciding to take a benefit away as the same thing as causing someone to suffer. To continue the analogy, if it costs $5000/month to keep an ambulance close to this guy's ranch on the off-chance that he needs it, I think it's only fair to ask him to shoulder some of that load or decide that those $5000 could be more efficiently used elsewhere. If that African kid is fed but people in our own country are not, I don't think it's immoral to decide not to send money to Africa so that we can take care of problems here. Resources are limited and hard decisions have to be made.
That's the thing though. Resources are only limited because some people don't believe that it's important enough to make sure EVERYBODY has access to health care.

If the money was needed to fight ISIS for example, the resources would suddenly be there.
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Old 27th June 2017, 12:12 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
In the US it doesn't and it's naive to think we can just import something from elsewhere and it will just work.
You mean like the way some countries try to promote secular representational government in place that didn't previously have it. Stupid waste of time. If it isn't already there you can't just change it.
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Old 27th June 2017, 12:35 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
It phases in over time. Things get really bleak for Medicaid after 2026.
What goes in next year?
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Old 27th June 2017, 12:39 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
I know I'm kind of asking for trouble here, but can anyone point me toward a good, reasonably concise argument in support of this Republican proposal?
Lol, I can't even point you to a good, reasonably concise summary of the proposal, let alone arguments for or against it.
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Old 27th June 2017, 12:40 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
What are these organizations suggesting for AHCA, the current bill?
I don't believe they've had any insight into it. It's not like our "esteemed" congress-critters are soliciting advice from actual experts, you know.

ETA: There may be some interaction, but there isn't any public commentary from those organizations at the moment. So far as I know, they've all been on watch, waiting to see what the hell is going on.
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Old 27th June 2017, 12:41 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Good news, sort of. The delay says they can't pass it. The delay might just be waiting for less attention on the issue so they can get it passed like the House did.
They're not getting it done before recess like the house did which is a problem with a bill so unpopular. Senators will hear from their constituents and it won't be an outcry of support to take healthcare away for tax cuts for the top 1%.

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Old 27th June 2017, 12:56 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
You mean like the way some countries try to promote secular representational government in place that didn't previously have it. Stupid waste of time. If it isn't already there you can't just change it.
That's a strawman; I didn't say it's a stupid waste of time or that it couldn't be changed. You can change it, it's just not as easy as picking a system and importing it over.
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Old 27th June 2017, 12:56 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Repubs are claiming that the ACA is dying because health insurance companies have withdrawn from 47 (or some other number) counties, meaning residents of those counties can't get individual coverage.

Why would insurers issue -- or be allowed to issue -- coverage by counties? Counties in the U.S. are arbitrary land areas that have nothing to do with population or anything else. Los Angeles County or Cook County (Chicago) have millions of people; rural counties in the Midwest or South might have a few hundred (at least one has fewer than 100). Why not just require insurers to offer identical policies throughout a state? How would that affect the insurance market?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County..._United_States
In the early days of hospitals, many hospitals were funded at the local level. In fact, most hospitals were county hospitals. Sometimes a particularly large county might have more than one hospital, depending on geography. Regulations for health insurance include a geographic access requirement, ensuring appropriate access to hospitals, facilities, labs, and doctors within the area that the insurance company is filing - that ends up being pretty close to county for everywhere outside of dense urban regions. So the requirements on the books are still based at the county level.
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Old 27th June 2017, 12:58 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
And yet more "winning"

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/27/politi...yed/index.html

Delayed. HAHA Dumbasses.
I'll take a delay, I don't care about the cause. Anything that pushes this further out or lowers the probability of it passing.
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Old 27th June 2017, 01:00 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
That's a strawman; I didn't say it's a stupid waste of time or that it couldn't be changed. You can change it, it's just not as easy as picking a system and importing it over.
Our exceptionalism keeps us from considering good ideas from other countries. This should be changed. Good beer does not have to served ice cold.
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Old 27th June 2017, 01:01 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'll take a delay, I don't care about the cause. Anything that pushes this further out or lowers the probability of it passing.
But how can you silence the voice of real america that demanded this?
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Old 27th June 2017, 01:05 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
In the early days of hospitals, many hospitals were funded at the local level. In fact, most hospitals were county hospitals. Sometimes a particularly large county might have more than one hospital, depending on geography. Regulations for health insurance include a geographic access requirement, ensuring appropriate access to hospitals, facilities, labs, and doctors within the area that the insurance company is filing - that ends up being pretty close to county for everywhere outside of dense urban regions. So the requirements on the books are still based at the county level.
Gee, maybe it's time to change them. Both the ACA and the AHCA are massive federal bills. County lines shouldn't carry much weight.
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Old 27th June 2017, 01:14 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The entire Republican Party has grown up on lies/propaganda and believe there is some magic solution involving tax cuts and deregulation that can make anything/everything better.

The problem is that this propaganda was never intended to be policy it was a way to get elected by promising voters they could have their cake and eat it too.
I don't think it is all 'propaganda'. People who become Republicans may actually believe that the 'magic solution' is real, not just a ruse to get voters.

While the idea that tax cuts and deregulation will make everything better is pure fantasy, it is a very believable fantasy - particularly for business people who see taxes and regulation as little more than impediments to efficient commerce. Of course that is not actually true, because without effective regulations (and the taxes to pay for them) business would be impossible.

The Republican hierarchy is full of crony capitalists who use selective regulations and tax manipulations to gain pecuniary advantage for themselves, but this hypocrisy doesn't necessarily mean they don't still believe in the fantasy of 'free' market solutions - they just don't think it applies to them (or they don't even realize the depths of their hypocrisy). And to be fair, Democrats are not immune to similar hypocrisy.

Quote:
The current generation never got that memo and are continually shocked at the consequences of trying to implement policy based on it. Never fear though, they can always just blame Democrats for the failure of these policies!
It's not only the current generation of Republicans who believe(d) that taxes and regulation should be minimized as much as possible. It goes way way back to the founding of the United States and even before. The difference between conservatives and progressives is in whether we should continue to hold those beliefs dear.
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Old 27th June 2017, 01:45 PM   #77
xjx388
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
I don't think it is all 'propaganda'. People who become Republicans may actually believe that the 'magic solution' is real, not just a ruse to get voters.
I don't think it's magic but I do believe that, generally speaking, less regulation/taxation means lower prices and more choice. To head off the army of strawmen that are surely coming my way, note that I did not say zero regulation/taxation. What we need is smarter policy.

Quote:
While the idea that tax cuts and deregulation will make everything better is pure fantasy, it is a very believable fantasy - particularly for business people who see taxes and regulation as little more than impediments to efficient commerce. Of course that is not actually true, because without effective regulations (and the taxes to pay for them) business would be impossible.
That's the problem: Define effective regulation/taxation. Beyond hardcore Libertarians, you aren't going to find many people that want absolutely nothing.

Quote:
The Republican hierarchy is full of crony capitalists who use selective regulations and tax manipulations to gain pecuniary advantage for themselves, but this hypocrisy doesn't necessarily mean they don't still believe in the fantasy of 'free' market solutions - they just don't think it applies to them (or they don't even realize the depths of their hypocrisy). And to be fair, Democrats are not immune to similar hypocrisy.
Right. Rent-seeking is a problem in the business world in general. That's a problem we have to fight. ETA: A high-regulation atmosphere contributes to rent-seeking.

Quote:
It's not only the current generation of Republicans who believe(d) that taxes and regulation should be minimized as much as possible. It goes way way back to the founding of the United States and even before. The difference between conservatives and progressives is in whether we should continue to hold those beliefs dear.
Why wouldn't we want to have as small a government as possible? Do we need them to do everything?
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Old 27th June 2017, 02:42 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
I know people that are in this situation, between 100% and 133% so not eligible for Obamacare and can't get insurance, so this bit is an improvement. Can't say I hope the bill will pass though, I don't.
IRS Publication 974 covers the Premium Tax Credit. The income range is specified on page 4:

Quote:
Your household income for 2016 is at least 100% but no more than 400% of the federal poverty line for your family size
There are however other factors besides income that could make one ineligible for a Premium Tax Credit.

I was wrong in my earlier post, the Medicaid income cutoff is 138%, not 133%.
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Old 27th June 2017, 03:10 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Repubs are claiming that the ACA is dying because health insurance companies have withdrawn from 47 (or some other number) counties, meaning residents of those counties can't get individual coverage.

Why would insurers issue -- or be allowed to issue -- coverage by counties? Counties in the U.S. are arbitrary land areas that have nothing to do with population or anything else. Los Angeles County or Cook County (Chicago) have millions of people; rural counties in the Midwest or South might have a few hundred (at least one has fewer than 100). Why not just require insurers to offer identical policies throughout a state? How would that affect the insurance market?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County..._United_States
Medical costs vary a lot across the country and even within a single state. Under the ACA insurance premiums depend on where the user lives. This was implemented on a state by state basis by dividing the state into regions. Each region consists of one or more counties.

Using the existing county lines for boundaries makes a lot more sense than inventing a new arbitrary line because people already know their county.

The reason medical costs vary is the old story of supply and demand. An insurer setting up a provider network is required to have a full range of specialists. If the region only has one provider working in a specialty, they must sign up that provider and have no real leverage for negotiating reasonable fees. In a big urban area there are multiple providers for every specialty and negotiation over fees is a lot easier.
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Old 27th June 2017, 03:16 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
...
The reason medical costs vary is the old story of supply and demand. An insurer setting up a provider network is required to have a full range of specialists. If the region only has one provider working in a specialty, they must sign up that provider and have no real leverage for negotiating reasonable fees. ....
That sounds like a reason to expand or redraw the boundary lines. If people can't get insurance because of the county they live in, and in the next county over they can, that's a problem. This stuff isn't carved in stone; it can be revised. And maybe those customers would choose a longer drive to a specialist rather than no coverage at all.

Last edited by Bob001; 27th June 2017 at 03:18 PM.
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