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Tags circumcision , circumcision incidents , circumcision issues

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Old 4th July 2017, 03:20 AM   #81
3point14
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I'm not a constitutional scholar. I'm sure much FGM is not protected as a religious right. The age of the child and the harm done would be factors to weigh.

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I'm interested in how you think the US constitution can protect your religious and culturally motivated right to remove your chi's foreskin but at the same time deny a sincere and fervent supporter of another religion and culture to remove the clitoris and most of the labia from their own child.


(Edit: I'm pretty sure you and I have had this conversation already, a long time ago.)
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Old 4th July 2017, 04:14 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm injured? Show me how.

I'm disfigured? That's subjective.
A body part was cut off. That is an injury.

Quote:
I'm damaged? Funny how neither I, nor my many partners, nor my various physicians, have ever remarked on any such damage.
So if you don't remark upon it, that means it hasn't happened? Bit of magical thinking there.

Quote:
Body modification is a continuum of practice, ranging from harmful to benign. It encompasses cultural traditions both ancient and modern.
Cutting somebody is rather obviously harmful to them.

And obviously it's a cultural tradition. I don't really see what this has to do with anything or why you bring it up.

Quote:
Your vicarious hangups are frankly offensive.
Since I haven't demonstrated any "hangups" then I can only assume you're really offended by truthfulness in this issue.
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Old 4th July 2017, 04:24 AM   #83
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https://youtu.be/xWTogNdV4lE

I really feel like most men could be sitting in their doctor's office while it is explained to them their penis turned gangrenous and died and most would impulsively shoot back, "What? That's crazy doc, everything's fine. My wife says we're having the best sex in years, too. My 3 side chicks, also. Oh yeah, I got hoes everywhere because, as I said, clearly nothing wrong down there! Thanks for the checkup, see ya."

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Old 4th July 2017, 04:40 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
*shrug* That's a question I have absolutely no ability to answer as it's an experience I don't have. I don't know what it feels like for them, etc.


...snip....

But you said earlier: "...snip.... An uncircumcised man also can't experience the things that I can either. Is he losing out or in your scenario is he automatically a peg up because his sex is different than mine? ...snip...."
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Old 4th July 2017, 04:44 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Darat, does it bother you that I'm circumcised?

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
I can truthfully say I have - until you asked - never considered your penis, and since I have no experience of your penis I can neither be bothered or not bothered by it.

Don't know what your question has to do with the topic of this thread but I assume you are leading up to something?
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Old 4th July 2017, 04:44 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
... If anything, I do them a favor by performing the procedure before the brain has even begun mapping the nerve impulses from the body...
That's interesting. Do you have any more information on this?
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Old 4th July 2017, 04:52 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
https://youtu.be/xWTogNdV4lE

I really feel like most men could be sitting in their doctor's office while it is explained to them their penis turned gangrenous and died and most would impulsively shoot back, "What? That's crazy doc, everything's fine. My wife says we're having the best sex in years, too. My 3 side chicks, also. Oh yeah, I got hoes everywhere because, as I said, clearly nothing wrong down there! Thanks for the checkup, see ya."
Let's be clear: The man himself experiences rewarding sexual stimulation via his penis. Both masturbation and intercourse with the partners of his choice are sexually satisfying. His physician has identified no impairment.

The man is satisfied. His partners are satisfied. His physician is satisfied. What's the problem?
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Old 4th July 2017, 04:57 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Let's be clear: The man himself experiences rewarding sexual stimulation via his penis. Both masturbation and intercourse with the partners of his choice are sexually satisfying. His physician has identified no impairment.

The man is satisfied. His partners are satisfied. His physician is satisfied. What's the problem?
You responded to my illustration by totally erasing it and substituting one where everything is 100% a-ok.

At this point perhaps I should just say thank you for being so helpful in making my point?

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Old 4th July 2017, 05:02 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I can truthfully say I have - until you asked - never considered your penis
"Truthfully"? That's a special kind of lie you're telling, Darat.
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Old 4th July 2017, 05:08 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Truthfully"? That's a special kind of lie you're telling, Darat.
Oh don't be such a silly-billy. I hadn't until the post you asked me about whether your penis bothered me considered your "personal" penis, prior to that I was just making a general comment about circumcised penises - if you want it to be about your particular penis you will have to provide me with an experience of your penis.
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Old 4th July 2017, 05:10 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
You responded to my illustration by totally erasing it and substituting one where everything is 100% a-ok.

At this point perhaps I should just say thank you for being so helpful in making my point?
What was your point, exactly? That men with fully functional penises would somehow be unable to admit that their penis wasn't fully functional? Your illustration makes no sense in the context of this thread.
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Old 4th July 2017, 05:14 AM   #92
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For me, the acceptable number of bits to chop off a fully functioning baby is zero.

For those here who believe that number is greater than zero, can I ask if you think it stops at just one?

What I'm asking is if anyone who thinks that MGM is okay thinks that it's okay to chop off any other bits of one's baby and iff so, which bits?

If the answer is only one, why that one bit specifically? Why no others?
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Old 4th July 2017, 05:18 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What was your point, exactly? That men with fully functional penises would somehow be unable to admit that their penis wasn't fully functional? Your illustration makes no sense in the context of this thread.
It is a fact that a circumcised penis is not a "fully functional" penis since a functional part of the penis* has been removed.


*NB: This is a comment about circumcised penises in general not your particular penis.
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Old 4th July 2017, 05:19 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What was your point, exactly? That men with fully functional penises would somehow be unable to admit that their penis wasn't fully functional? Your illustration makes no sense in the context of this thread.
Well, momentarily at least, I'm quite fascinated that a completely fictitious non-functional penis (fabricated as part of a humorously exaggerated rant) cannot be acknowledged as such.

Which actually goes a great deal further in demonstrating why this conversation doesn't get much traction than the silly little scenario itself did.

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Old 4th July 2017, 05:20 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
For me, the acceptable number of bits to chop off a fully functioning baby is zero.

For those here who believe that number is greater than zero, can I ask if you think it stops at just one?

What I'm asking is if anyone who thinks that MGM is okay thinks that it's okay to chop off any other bits of one's baby and iff so, which bits?

If the answer is only one, why that one bit specifically? Why no others?
I would also ask - "And is the number also based on the sex of the child?"
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Old 4th July 2017, 05:21 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Well, momentarily at least, I'm quite fascinated that a completely fictitious non-functional penis (fabricated as part of a humorously exaggerated rant) cannot be acknowledged as such.

Which actually goes a great deal further in demonstrating why this conversation doesn't get much traction than the silly little scenario itself did.

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It would seem that theprestige wants this to be only about his particular penis and not a more general discussion about circumcision so perhaps he is struggling to relate to your scenario.
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Old 4th July 2017, 05:28 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It would seem that theprestige wants this to be only about his particular penis and not a more general discussion about circumcision so perhaps he is struggling to relate to your scenario.
So I think I can boil this down to 2 points:

On the subject of penises,

1. My penis is fine.

2. We will discuss my penis and only my penis.

Certainly one can see how the intersection of these guiding principles can limit the possible trajectory of the conversation.

Now, let's try to have a societal discussion about it and get about 100 million+ adult males to share their opinions.

Not gonna happen.

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Old 4th July 2017, 06:53 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not even remotely. Keep talking to me about my penis. I'll tell you when you've said enough.

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
If we are realizing its cruel to modify animals without consent, I'm sure we will eventually realize the same rights should be given to children. I mean have, but then again I can look at the issue logically.
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Old 4th July 2017, 06:58 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Of course I dont believe in the events in the bible or even in s concept of a god. My justification doesn't come from the bible. It comes from a desire to strengthen their cultural and familial bonds.


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And you couldn't think of a single better option?

That's some limited thinking right there.

As well, where do you live in which the greeting between men is to whip out their penis?

"Hey bill"

*unzips*

"Oh **** your from 4th Ave too awesome! "

Just doesn't happen around these parts, pun intended.
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Old 4th July 2017, 07:06 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
https://youtu.be/xWTogNdV4lE

I really feel like most men could be sitting in their doctor's office while it is explained to them their penis turned gangrenous and died and most would impulsively shoot back, "What? That's crazy doc, everything's fine. My wife says we're having the best sex in years, too. My 3 side chicks, also. Oh yeah, I got hoes everywhere because, as I said, clearly nothing wrong down there! Thanks for the checkup, see ya."
Totally.

It's that mixed worth a healthy dose of "we didn't wear seat belts in my day and im fine".

But what about those who don't feel that way? Shouldn't everyone be able to make an informed choice in regards to permanent unnecessary surgery? I have a body full of tattoos, so do most of my friends, I'd never in a million years think that I had the right to give one to my child so they can fit in.

And to put a point on it, a rice sized tattoo would have a lot less risk, and be more easily reversed. Still this would be morally repugnant to me.
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Old 4th July 2017, 07:08 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Let's be clear: The man himself experiences rewarding sexual stimulation via his penis. Both masturbation and intercourse with the partners of his choice are sexually satisfying. His physician has identified no impairment.

The man is satisfied. His partners are satisfied. His physician is satisfied. What's the problem?
Loss of limb and death.

Don't be silly, or look up what gangrene is.
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Old 4th July 2017, 07:16 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
If anything, I do them a favor by performing the procedure before the brain has even begun mapping the nerve impulses from the body. Circumcising an adult is cruel.
Sounds like a cheap rationalisation to me, though the highlighted phrase might deserve a stronger description.

Pain in babiesWP

Possibly the critical section:

"The nerves of young babies respond more readily to noxious stimuli, with a lower threshold to stimulation, than those of adults. A baby's threshold for sensitization is also substantially decreased, whilst the process involves a much larger area of sensitization with each trauma.[7] The neural pathways that descend from the brain to the spinal cord are not well developed in the newborn, resulting in the ability of the central nervous system to inhibit nociception being more limited than in the adult"
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Old 4th July 2017, 07:19 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Oh don't be such a silly-billy. I hadn't until the post you asked me about whether your penis bothered me considered your "personal" penis, prior to that I was just making a general comment about circumcised penises - if you want it to be about your particular penis you will have to provide me with an experience of your penis.
Is the only way this debate lasts beyond two posts.

No one can logically defend cutting bits of of people as a practise, so it always congress down to personalization. "So you are insulting my cock? The cocks of my children?" Because the person knows someone is less likely to stick to their point if they feel they are being mean.


It's like how if I were discussing the merits of having one leg or two. The real answer is two legs are better than having a missing leg. But if my friend with one leg were to say "so you are saying I'm not as capable as you? " I'm likely going to move on to another topic, as I can't convince him into growing a leg and I feel in making him feel bad.

That being said it's a very illogical and shady debate tactic. The person is essentially saying "if you keep talking I'm gonna cry" in hopes the awkwardness makes the other person stop speaking the truth.

Or if I'm being less generous, I could see it as a way to make someone stumble afoul of the ma by demanding an arguement be personalized.
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Old 4th July 2017, 07:22 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What was your point, exactly? That men with fully functional penises would somehow be unable to admit that their penis wasn't fully functional? Your illustration makes no sense in the context of this thread.
It does though.

Men are notorious for taking slight at any insinuation their particular penis is sub par. Going to various crazy lengths to prove it isn't. Becoming illogical about it.

But no this must be the only penis related subject in which this isn't going to happen.
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Old 4th July 2017, 07:25 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Well, momentarily at least, I'm quite fascinated that a completely fictitious non-functional penis (fabricated as part of a humorously exaggerated rant) cannot be acknowledged as such.

Which actually goes a great deal further in demonstrating why this conversation doesn't get much traction than the silly little scenario itself did.

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People don't want to accept a gangrene ridden fictional wang could be sub par, what chance is there of logic being used if we are talking about real wang?
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Old 4th July 2017, 07:52 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
For me, the acceptable number of bits to chop off a fully functioning baby is zero.

For those here who believe that number is greater than zero, can I ask if you think it stops at just one?

What I'm asking is if anyone who thinks that MGM is okay thinks that it's okay to chop off any other bits of one's baby and if so, which bits?

If the answer is only one, why that one bit specifically? Why no others?
I'll go for placenta, hair and fingernails (not the whole fingernail just the bit the end).
So that's probably few hundred in total.
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Old 4th July 2017, 07:55 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
I'll go for placenta, hair and fingernails (not the whole fingernail just the bit the end).
So that's probably few hundred in total.

Okay, I think the placenta doesn't count, it's designed to be expendable.

Hair and nails grow back.

If this is the level of debate you think is relevant then I really can't be bothered. have a nice day.
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Old 4th July 2017, 07:59 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
I'll go for placenta, hair and fingernails (not the whole fingernail just the bit the end).
So that's probably few hundred in total.
That is not serious answer to the actual question, if it was you'd be up to the millions and equating a male's foreskin to a dead skin cell.
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Old 4th July 2017, 08:09 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Oh don't be such a silly-billy.
Personal attack reported.

Quote:
I hadn't until the post you asked me about whether your penis bothered me considered your "personal" penis, prior to that I was just making a general comment about circumcised penises - if you want it to be about your particular penis you will have to provide me with an experience of your penis.
Darat, whose penis were you referring to in this post?

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You said you were not damaged but that is simply factually wrong. Tissue that served a functional purpose was removed from your penis permanently altering it and leaving you with scars.
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Old 4th July 2017, 08:09 AM   #110
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Again there are simple, minimally-invasive cosmetic procedures for adults to remove foreskin. This can be done with less destruction of underlying tissues, the prepuce erogenous zone, or the unravelling function. There doesn't seem to be a huge demand for it (most being cases of excessive or damaged foreskin).

Here's a glimpse at a research project studying men having adult procedures to fix damage from early-age circumcision:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3130485/

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Old 4th July 2017, 08:21 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Okay, I think the placenta doesn't count, it's designed to be expendable.

Hair and nails grow back.

If this is the level of debate you think is relevant then I really can't be bothered. have a nice day.
Your question didn't mention non-expendability or the capacity for regrowth. Perhaps next time you could put more thought into asking your questions.
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Old 4th July 2017, 08:21 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Loss of limb and death.

Don't be silly, or look up what gangrene is.
I know what gangrene is. I'm trying to figure out why Delphic Oracle keeps trying to make an analogy between reporting no ill effects from circumcision and reporting no ill effects from gangrenous limb loss.
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Old 4th July 2017, 08:22 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That is not serious answer to the actual question, if it was you'd be up to the millions and equating a male's foreskin to a dead skin cell.
Either that or you've just come up with some weird kind of false dichotomy.
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Old 4th July 2017, 08:23 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Your question didn't mention non-expendability or the capacity for regrowth. Perhaps next time you could put more thought into asking your questions.

My questions assume a certain level of knowledge and intelligence and are aimed at an audience who are arguing in good faith.

I don't think it's the question that's the problem.
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We are lions, not tigers.
Turns out I don't know a lot about tigers.
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Old 4th July 2017, 08:25 AM   #115
Information Analyst
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When Mrs Analyst was recently expecting Junior Analyst, the question did come up very briefly. Notwithstanding the fact that - as stated in the OP link - the circumcision rate in the UK is 15%, and non-religious rate only 6%*, both our fathers were circumcised. My father actively chose it, according to my mother as a scam for bed-rest while doing his National Service (or she may just have got that from The Virgin Soldiers), while my father-in-law did not, it being down to a neurotic fixation of his mother's. Luckily my father did not visit it on any of his sons, and neither Mrs Analyst nor myself had any inclination to take the practice up again. As it was, Junior Analyst turned out to be Miss Analyst, so the question was even more moot.

* It may be worth noting that in the UK, many people did not recognise the sub-title of the South Park movie as a double-entendre, and merely assumed it was a statemnent of fact that the film would have a longer running time, would be on a larger scale, and have more profanity than the TV series.

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Old 4th July 2017, 08:26 AM   #116
Delphic Oracle
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I know what gangrene is. I'm trying to figure out why Delphic Oracle keeps trying to make an analogy between reporting no ill effects from circumcision and reporting no ill effects from gangrenous limb loss.
No.

I made no analogy. I made a completely stand-alone hypothetical scenario. The illustration intended was that men have trouble with straightforward discussion of their sexual organs.

But I concede to your superior demonstration of this phenomenon. You've done far better than I have.

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Old 4th July 2017, 08:32 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Your question didn't mention non-expendability or the capacity for regrowth. Perhaps next time you could put more thought into asking your questions.
Maybe you should read the whole thread rather than nitpicking in this way. We've been talking about an irreversible surgical procedure from the outset. Hair and nail clipping are irrelevant to the gist of the discussion.
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Old 4th July 2017, 08:33 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
It does though.

Men are notorious for taking slight at any insinuation their particular penis is sub par. Going to various crazy lengths to prove it isn't. Becoming illogical about it.

But no this must be the only penis related subject in which this isn't going to happen.
A lot of men actually quite like the idea of having a sub par penis. Try not to stereotype so hard.

Anyway, some people in this thread seem to be extremely triggered by the idea of male circumcision. Personally, I think the practice should probably be discontinued. It doesn't seem to have much benefit, and it brings a lot of unnecessary risks. But that said--and also personally--as a "victim" of the procedure I really don't get the outrage being expressed by some people here.

I mean, you keep making all these appeals to emotion, and I'm like, what? You're trying to tell me how I'm supposed to feel about my own dick? That's the argument you're going with? Honestly, I think you're probably more unhappy about my penis than I am. Which is why I asked.

But hey, if you're uncomfortable talking about my penis, that's okay. Go ahead and make your calm, medical argument against male circumcision. Let's see if you can manage it without the melodrama.
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Old 4th July 2017, 09:08 AM   #119
Delphic Oracle
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Anyway, some people in this thread seem to be extremely triggered by the idea of male circumcision.
Poisoning the Well

Quote:
I mean, you keep making all these appeals to emotion, and I'm like, what? You're trying to tell me how I'm supposed to feel about my own dick?
Where has that happened?

Circumcision involves mutilation of the genitals. That's not a directive for you to feel a certain way, it's a declarative statement.

Quote:
But hey, if you're uncomfortable talking about my penis, that's okay. Go ahead and make your calm, medical argument against male circumcision. Let's see if you can manage it without the melodrama.
Let's see...

Quote:
It doesn't seem to have much benefit, and it brings a lot of unnecessary risks.
So medically uneccessary (with perhaps a few exceptions that could be made for medically appropriate reasons) and potentially physical, physiological, and even possibly psychological disorders.

Seems conclusive enough to me at face value.

I would add, again, that an adult making an informed decision on their own about this has far fewer risks and, unsurprisingly, far fewer volunteers.

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Old 4th July 2017, 09:15 AM   #120
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
No.

I made no analogy. I made a completely stand-alone hypothetical scenario. The illustration intended was that men have trouble with straightforward discussion of their sexual organs.

But I concede to your superior demonstration of this phenomenon. You've done far better than I have.
Why? Because I won't play along with your absurd scenario?

I've been straightforward throughout this thread. I've been open and honest about my experience. For that I've received insults and mockery. You don't want straightforward. You want dysfunction. A circumcised man has straightforwardly told you that the procedure caused him no noticeable suffering, and cost him no measurable function. You responded by creating a fantasy in which he's dysfunctionally incapable of acknowledging a problem he doesn't even have. Your argument is offensive. It's dishonest. It's anything but straightforward. You're not concerned about my foreskin. You're just upset because I'm not expressing Correct Thought.
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