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Tags circumcision , circumcision incidents , circumcision issues

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Old 4th July 2017, 06:00 PM   #161
Delphic Oracle
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Educate us.
I linked a study. Nobody acknowledged it.

This phenomenon has occurred in these discussions often enough that I have little motivation to dig up more.

Instead we get repeated claims of benefits and told the drawbacks are imaginary when medically speaking, the exact opposite is true.

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Old 4th July 2017, 06:21 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Because the only argument in that post was emotive.

Keep up the pretense. That's persuasive.

Quote:

Imagine the same argument being used for abortions? [i]"I wonder what the long term result would be if all references to abortion, including within the medical community and literature, were to be replaced with 'prenatal infanticide?'"

Maybe because it would be inaccurate to the point of being a contradiction in terms. An embryo is not an infant.

Quote:


I can't think of any. Can you name a few?



What was the "medically accurate" part of that post?

.

The medically accurate part of the term, you mean?

Which part of "male genital mutilation" do you believe is not medically accurate?
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Old 4th July 2017, 08:07 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Keep up the pretense. That's persuasive.
C'mon, you're better than this nonsense.

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Maybe because it would be inaccurate to the point of being a contradiction in terms. An embryo is not an infant.
Easy enough to fix. Prenatal fetacide? Prenatal mutilation? Inflammatory words are inflammatory, it only takes a little imagination to pick a good one.

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Which part of "male genital mutilation" do you believe is not medically accurate?
The word "mutilation". Any definition so broad as to include circumcision would also include any surgical procedure.

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Old 4th July 2017, 08:21 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
<snip>

The word "mutilation". Any definition so broad as to include circumcision would also include any surgical procedure.

Ummm, no.

Needlessly removing functional body parts does not include "any surgical procedure".
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Old 4th July 2017, 09:15 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Ummm, no.

Needlessly removing functional body parts does not include "any surgical procedure".
Nor did I say it did. What I did say is a definition of "mutilation" so broad as to include circumcision would also include virtually any surgical procedure.

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Old 4th July 2017, 09:35 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Rule of "It's been okay for thousands of years now, so ... "
What I meant by that is not that doing something for a long time is reason to keep doing it. It's not. I meant that we've been doing this procedure for a long time, and therefore know a lot about it.

Those who claim it's an egregious tragedy... The science doesn't support that. Circumcised people do about the same as uncircumcised people.




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Old 4th July 2017, 09:35 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Nor did I say it did. What I did say is a definition of "mutilation" so broad as to include circumcision would also include virtually any surgical procedure.

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I think there's an important distinction being missed in that most surgical procedures are for repairing or removing damaged or unhealthy tissues but the vast majority of infant circumcision does not have any such justification.

With no preventable health risk to offer as a rational basis for taking a knife to flesh, this procedure doesn't qualify as "medical" to me.

First, do no harm.

Now, it certainly can get more complicated, but net benefit is key in justifying an operation. Doctors are not spiritual advisors or sociologists, so the family and cultural bonding stuff is outside their scope of concern. What is good for the development of a newborn child should be their overriding concern.

30 seconds a day of minimal sanitary effort is what we're talking about. So hey, let's remove baby teeth and gums (future development as well) and install dentures. We're preventing gingivitis!

There is a great deal of very slow change that occurs to the organs and skin arrangement well into puberty that diverge greatly when the procedure is at birth. The structure they are looking at is very different from the final result at adulthood. Not to mention surface area and room for error.

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Old 4th July 2017, 10:06 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
What I meant by that is not that doing something for a long time is reason to keep doing it. It's not. I meant that we've been doing this procedure for a long time, and therefore know a lot about it.

Those who claim it's an egregious tragedy... The science doesn't support that. Circumcised people do about the same as uncircumcised people.




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As a ritual? Yes.

As a "medical" procedure, actually no.

Even today, it's tough to find numbers and data even on rates of population, let alone complications (and it is assumed so ubiquitous that it might not be considered as a factor).

This is from American Academy of Pediatrics and demonstrates the turbulent discussion and limited data available.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/103/3/686

It's absurd, yes, that even medical science (and especially public health policy) is nearly as squeamish on this topic as your average joe.

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Old 4th July 2017, 10:24 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I think there's an important distinction being missed in that most surgical procedures are for repairing or removing damaged or unhealthy tissues but the vast majority of infant circumcision does not have any such justification.
That paragraph is really struggling to make itself sound more important than it is. It's a cosmetic procedure, mostly.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
With no preventable health risk to offer as a rational basis for taking a knife to flesh, this procedure doesn't qualify as "medical" to me.
There are minor benefits. I'd list them, but I assume Google works as well for you as it does for me.

"To me." is a very important qualifier, isn't it? If it seems one way to you, but many people don't share that view and it seems different to them, what gives you the right to impose your view on them?

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
First, do no harm.
That's the crux of the anti-circumcision argument is a very poorly supported assertion that harm is being done.


Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Now, it certainly can get more complicated, but net benefit is key in justifying an operation.
Net benefit is subjective, so that decision should be left between the doctor and family. You shouldn't have any say there.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Doctors are not spiritual advisors or sociologists, so the family and cultural bonding stuff is outside their scope of concern.
Making the decision is outside of their concern, but advising on the decision is not, nor is performing the procedure safely if the parents want it. People make medical decisions using non medical factors all the time.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
What is good for the development of a newborn child should be their overriding concern.
And for cultural, religious, health or esthetic reasons, those concerns could lead to a decision to circumcise a boy.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
There is a great deal of very slow change that occurs to the organs and skin arrangement well into puberty that diverge greatly when the procedure is at birth. The structure they are looking at is very different from the final result at adulthood. Not to mention surface area and room for error.
That sounds like a reason to do it after puberty?

Reasons to do it in infancy include not remembering it, getting it done before the brain does all it's neural mapping, and not getting stitches pulled by erections.


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Old 4th July 2017, 10:43 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I disagree that I need to justify sati, FGM, and chopping off hands to says that circumcision should be left to the decision of the parents, because none of those are comparable to circumcision.
Then you do agree that it is okay to stifle people's religious freedom in some cases. Is that correct?
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Old 4th July 2017, 10:59 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I linked a study. Nobody acknowledged it.
I'm sorry I missed it. I'd look it up if I wereon my PC, but I'm on my phone and I don't really know how on tapatalk.

I will say that unless it's a very recent study, I've probably already read it. A few years ago I decided to research the topic deep, and I read everything I could find from every point of view.

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Old 4th July 2017, 11:05 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Then you do agree that it is okay to stifle people's religious freedom in some cases. Is that correct?
Correct, religious freedom is not absolute.

At the same time, I also think you would need a very good reason, and I really don't believe this qualifies.

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Old 4th July 2017, 11:40 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The function being to keep a few drops of urine on the glans to promote inflammation and bad smell, and also as a collection place for smegma.
Your claims regarding the function of the foreskin are not informed by actual facts.
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Old 4th July 2017, 11:45 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Nor did I say it did. What I did say is a definition of "mutilation" so broad as to include circumcision would also include virtually any surgical procedure.

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You did say it, you were wrong of course but yes you did say that.
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Old 5th July 2017, 03:14 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
That paragraph is really struggling to make itself sound more important than it is. It's a cosmetic procedure, mostly.
You didn't limit the comparison to cosmetic procedures.

You've also now shifted on this point and concede there is no medical value here?

Quote:
There are minor benefits. I'd list them, but I assume Google works as well for you as it does for me.
No?

Ok. Hard to discuss this with someone who refuses to be consistent from one sentence to the next.

Quote:
"To me." is a very important qualifier, isn't it? If it seems one way to you, but many people don't share that view and it seems different to them, what gives you the right to impose your view on them?
Now you're feigning ignorance of common phrases.

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That's the crux of the anti-circumcision argument is a very poorly supported assertion that harm is being done.
Only when you refuse to read or respond to support given.


Quote:
Net benefit is subjective, so that decision should be left between the doctor and family. You shouldn't have any say there.
Net benefit is not subjective. You just refuse to educate yourself on it.

As I've pointed, even doctor's are morons when it comes to reproductive organs. Religion made it that much of a "no-no" topic that even people who study the human body shied away.

Quote:
Making the decision is outside of their concern, but advising on the decision is not, nor is performing the procedure safely if the parents want it. People make medical decisions using non medical factors all the time.
OK, but just don't call it a medical procedure.

Quote:
And for cultural, religious, health or esthetic reasons, those concerns could lead to a decision to circumcise a boy.

That sounds like a reason to do it after puberty?

Reasons to do it in infancy include not remembering it, getting it done before the brain does all it's neural mapping, and not getting stitches pulled by erections.


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It sounds like you are still comically uninformed or ill-informed on too many facts to make an informed decision about this even for yourself, let alone a defenseless child.

Which is basically the only reason this continues to be a common practice at all.

Stunning ignorance and celebrated falsehoods.

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Old 5th July 2017, 03:23 AM   #176
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Could someone please present me the legal standard that allows for MGM and not FGM.

Is there one?
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Old 5th July 2017, 03:45 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Could someone please present me the legal standard that allows for MGM and not FGM.

Is there one?
Because Jesus?

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Old 5th July 2017, 05:24 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Could someone please present me the legal standard that allows for MGM and not FGM.

Is there one?
18 U.S. Code § 116 - Female genital mutilation is part of the answer. The other part is buried in irrational beliefs.

The bit I find especially interesting is:

(c) In applying subsection (b)(1), no account shall be taken of the effect on the person on whom the operation is to be performed of any belief on the part of that person, or any other person, that the operation is required as a matter of custom or ritual.

In other words, "This is what we do in our tribe" is no justification for the procedure. It strikes me as very strange double standards that circumcision is allowed on boys for no better reason than "custom or ritual".
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Old 5th July 2017, 05:28 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
18 U.S. Code § 116 - Female genital mutilation

The bit I find especially interesting is:

(c) In applying subsection (b)(1), no account shall be taken of the effect on the person on whom the operation is to be performed of any belief on the part of that person, or any other person, that the operation is required as a matter of custom or ritual.

In other words, "This is what we do in our tribe" is no justification for the procedure. It strikes me as very strange double standards that circumcision is allowed on boys for no better reason than "custom or ritual".



Thank you.
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Old 5th July 2017, 05:33 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Rule of so.



I did. The removal of a piece of skin is still not comparable to a leg.


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It's very comparable to several types of FGM though - indeed more drastic than some of them. Is your view of FGM the same as your view on MGM and if not, why not?
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Old 5th July 2017, 05:40 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
You didn't limit the comparison to cosmetic procedures.
Nor is there any reason to limit the comparison to cosmetic procedures.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
You've also now shifted on this point and concede there is no medical value here?
If I gave that impression, let me correct it now.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Now you're feigning ignorance of common phrases.
No, and that's a very weird claim.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Only when you refuse to read or respond to support given.
I have not refused to read anything, and I've certainly responded. Your assertions of harm are weak. If you have better evidence or believe I have overlooked something, please feel free to bring it forward.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Net benefit is not subjective. You just refuse to educate yourself on it.
Of course net benefits are subjective. That is different people can judge the same benefits to have greater or lesser value depending on their own circumstances and preferences.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
As I've pointed, even doctor's are morons when it comes to reproductive organs. Religion made it that much of a "no-no" topic that even people who study the human body shied away.
Off topic, but whatever.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
OK, but just don't call it a medical procedure.
Why not? Of course it's a medical procedure.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
It sounds like you are still comically uninformed or ill-informed on too many facts to make an informed decision about this even for yourself, let alone a defenseless child.
You are needlessly personalizing this.













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Old 5th July 2017, 05:40 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I disagree that I need to justify sati, FGM, and chopping off hands to says that circumcision should be left to the decision of the parents, because none of those are comparable to circumcision.
I suggest you educate yourself on FGM. There are various forms including some that are less than circumcision, some that are comparable and some that are much worse.
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Old 5th July 2017, 05:45 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Could someone please present me the legal standard that allows for MGM and not FGM.

Is there one?
The sole purpose of calling circumcision "MGM" is to elicit the emotional reaction of female genital mutilation. It's disengenous at best.

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Old 5th July 2017, 05:47 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
It's very comparable to several types of FGM though - indeed more drastic than some of them. Is your view of FGM the same as your view on MGM and if not, why not?
Is it comparable with all types of female genital mutilation?

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Old 5th July 2017, 05:50 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Could someone please present me the legal standard that allows for MGM and not FGM.

Is there one?
The legislation. FGM only became illegal in the UK around the mid 80s, and the laws have been strengthened since then in a few different acts/bills.
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Old 5th July 2017, 05:55 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The sole purpose of calling circumcision "MGM" is to elicit the emotional reaction of female genital mutilation. It's disengenous at best.

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Why are you then using the emotive term female genital mutilation if you are against using a form of words to elicit an emotional reaction?

FGM was a purposefully chosen term to make it clear what happens to victims of what was known previously as "female circumcision" (regardless of the type of FGM). Why do you not still use the term "female circumcision"?
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Old 5th July 2017, 06:00 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The sole purpose of calling circumcision "MGM" is to elicit the emotional reaction of female genital mutilation. It's disengenous at best.

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No, no it isn't.

What one does, during a circumcision, is cut off a bit of a babies penis.

Let me repeat the key phrase: "Cut off". The thing that's being cut off is full of nerve endings and supplied with blood.

What you have, and I'm sorry if this logic upsets you, after a circumcision, is a baby boy with a mutilated penis.


Other cultures have valued different mutilation of their babies and children, ritual scarring, that thing with the neck rings, oriental ladies and their crushed feet, lots of different things.

Just because it's something that's culturally acceptable, doesn't mean it isn't mutilation. It's a textbook case.
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Old 5th July 2017, 06:02 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Nor is there any reason to limit the comparison to cosmetic procedures.
You claimed most surgeries would fall under "mutilation" the way it was being used. Then you deflect when the difference is pointed out by claiming this one is cosmetic (which it isn't, healthy tissues with functional purposes are damaged or destroyed).

So you changed the scope of the set.

You moved the goalposts.

Quote:
If I gave that impression, let me correct it now.
Is it a procedure that has medical merit or is it cosmetic and has no particular consequences, you seem to shift around on this point from post to post (or sentence to sentence).

Quote:
I have not refused to read anything, and I've certainly responded. Your assertions of harm are weak. If you have better evidence or believe I have overlooked something, please feel free to bring it forward.
Two links from me, one claim from you that you can't ingest it just now along with a declaration that you don't really need to anyways.

Quote:
Of course net benefits are subjective. That is different people can judge the same benefits to have greater or lesser value depending on their own circumstances and preferences.
No I mean literally some of the maluses/benefits claimed by proponents are utter hogwash.

Quote:
Off topic, but whatever.
The religious viewpoint and relevant historical sociological context is off topic?

Then so are your rants about "muh religions!"

Quote:
Why not? Of course it's a medical procedure.
It's a superstitious ritual indicative of 6000 year old thinking.

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You are needlessly personalizing this.
https://youtu.be/6pTbL7GYUuA

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Old 5th July 2017, 06:05 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Is it comparable with all types of female genital mutilation?

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No. Which is why I said "There are various forms including some that are less than circumcision, some that are comparable and some that are much worse."

We have had threads about this before.

The World Health Organization describes FGM as "any procedure that injures the female genital organs for non-medical reasons."

If you drop the word 'female' then that is circumcision - though you'll now no doubt quibble about the definition of 'injures' so...

...Definition of Type IV FGM: "The WHO defines Type IV as "All other harmful procedures to the female genitalia for non-medical purposes, including pricking, piercing, incising, scraping and cauterization. It includes nicking of the clitoris (symbolic circumcision)...".

That latter, I would contend is substantially less drastic than circumcision. A small cut is made that is then allowed to heal.

So it's wrong to make a small cut in a female's genital organs but perfectly ok to completely remove a part of a male's genital organs because...?

Last edited by Ethan Thane Athen; 5th July 2017 at 06:09 AM.
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Old 5th July 2017, 08:02 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
What I meant by that is not that doing something for a long time is reason to keep doing it. It's not. I meant that we've been doing this procedure for a long time, and therefore know a lot about it.

Those who claim it's an egregious tragedy... The science doesn't support that. Circumcised people do about the same as uncircumcised people.




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Botched circumcision are not a tragedy?
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Old 5th July 2017, 08:03 AM   #191
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Mycroft, you definitely have more patience than I do. The passive aggressive and, not so, passive aggressive way you've been confronted was why I bailed out awhile ago. It's basically just being repeatedly called stupid in ways that are allowed here.

I'm with ya though. I didn't even know until this thread that I was a mutilated disgrace with stupid parents that can't think for themselves and love the jeebuz too much.
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Old 5th July 2017, 08:10 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
...snip...

I'm with ya though. I didn't even know until this thread that I was a mutilated disgrace with stupid parents that can't think for themselves and love the jeebuz too much.
Repeating your strawman does not make it true.
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Old 5th July 2017, 08:20 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Mycroft, you definitely have more patience than I do. The passive aggressive and, not so, passive aggressive way you've been confronted was why I bailed out awhile ago. It's basically just being repeatedly called stupid in ways that are allowed here.

You confuse the accusations. nobodY's been called stupid, however, absent the threat of eternal damnation, cutting healthy bits off healthy children is a stupid idea.
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Old 5th July 2017, 08:47 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Repeating your strawman does not make it true.
Again, we'll have to disagree. Maybe since, as I was told before, I have an implicit bias here I can see the not-at-all-subtle messages in the posts.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
You confuse the accusations. nobodY's been called stupid, however, absent the threat of eternal damnation, cutting healthy bits off healthy children is a stupid idea.
Ah, so it's not that they're stupid, it's just that they have stupid ideas? Thanks for clearing that up. Point taken.
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Old 5th July 2017, 08:52 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Ah, so it's not that they're stupid, it's just that they have stupid ideas? Thanks for clearing that up. Point taken.

I'm having difficulty interpreting the tone of this one. Is the point really taken or are you still upset that others assess your actions differently to you?
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Old 5th July 2017, 09:08 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
That would be anti-religious and cultural freedom.
Religious and cultural freedom does not extend to the injuring of others.

Quote:
I disagree that circumcision equals mutilation
Then you have made a factual error.

Quote:
and I believe your reliance on that emotive term underlines the overall weakness of your argument.
I would say the fact that your argument rests on denying an objective fact underlines the falsity of your argument.

Quote:
You are asserting a right to interfere with someone else's religious and cultural freedom. I think it's appropriate to explore the basis of that assertion.
It's simple enough. Religious and cultural freedom does not extend to the injuring of others without their consent. We do not allow people to carry out human sacrifice in the name of religious and cultural freedom. We do not allow people to molest their children in the name of religious and cultural freedom. We should not allow people to mutilate their children in the name of religious and cultural freedom.
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Old 5th July 2017, 09:09 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Botched circumcision are not a tragedy?
Rule of so, except you managed to avoid the word “so”.

Of course botched circumcisions can be a tragedy.
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Old 5th July 2017, 09:11 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Rule of so, except you managed to avoid the word “so”.

Well, that's new.
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Old 5th July 2017, 09:17 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
You claimed most surgeries would fall under "mutilation" the way it was being used.
Yes.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Then you deflect when the difference is pointed out by claiming this one is cosmetic (which it isn't, healthy tissues with functional purposes are damaged or destroyed).
I disagree that was a deflection. You’re the one who doesn’t seem to want to address how broad your definition of “mutilation” is.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
So you changed the scope of the set.

You moved the goalposts.
No.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Is it a procedure that has medical merit or is it cosmetic and has no particular consequences, you seem to shift around on this point from post to post (or sentence to sentence).
I think you working so hard to identify or manufacture a contradiction in what I say is your method of deflection from addressing the issue that a definition of “mutilation” so broad as to include circumcision is broad enough to include any surgical procedure. Having “medical merit” and being “cosmetic” are not mutually exclusive to each other, so that should ease your confusion.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Two links from me, one claim from you that you can't ingest it just now along with a declaration that you don't really need to anyways.
Does paraphrasing what I said exempt you from addressing it? Is it a recent study or not?

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
No I mean literally some of the maluses/benefits claimed by proponents are utter hogwash.
Some benefits being hogwash does not in any way address benefits being subjective.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
The religious viewpoint and relevant historical sociological context is off topic?
Non-sequitur would have been more accurate. That is, it didn’t address any point I made nor raise any issue I need to deal with.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Then so are your rants about "muh religions!"
Rant?

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
It's a superstitious ritual indicative of 6000 year old thinking.
Which doesn’t disqualify it from being a medical procedure.
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Old 5th July 2017, 09:18 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Yes...
(apologies for heavily snipping your post))

Can you say what evidence would be required for you to change your mind?
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