Ultimate math trick question? - Page 6

Skeptical Greg · 8th July 2017, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms

.....

People can disagree and I am perfectly fine with those here that don't agree but made sound arguments why they don't agree. However, if someone is forced to use a strawman logic fallacy or other unsound reasoning to back up their case, then it only shows they can't really back up their case. They either lack the intellectual tools, or are too lazy to think it through.

Ad hom argument.. Fail..

Your OP assumes some logical extrapolations that make the obvious answer incorrect. Then when others extrapolate even further, with results that
don't agree with yours, you call foul..

Sour grapes?

Ziggurat · 8th July 2017, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

Sour grapes?

How many sour grapes constitute a bunch? That's our next "math" problem.

I say 14 or 15.

Foolmewunz · 8th July 2017, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Worm

Once you go beyond the simple maths that makes the answer 14, the only real answer is : There is not enough information to answer this question in a non-ambiguous way.

It's just an excuse to exercise pedantry, which I recognise as a self-confessed pedant.

Surprised nobody has come up with innovative solutions that involve crossing the international date line.

Hilited: Heading to China (where it's either yesterday or tomorrow depending on which direction and which starting point you use ) where they adopted his sister, who is stubbornly loyal to Chinese culture and thus counts her birthday from d.o.b. = 1.

Yet another "ultimate" problem by the wayside. Sad.

Red Baron Farms · 8th July 2017, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

Hilited: Heading to China (where it's either yesterday or tomorrow depending on which direction and which starting point you use ) where they adopted his sister, who is stubbornly loyal to Chinese culture and thus counts her birthday from d.o.b. = 1.

I like it!
Chinese POV certainly does add an interesting wrinkle!

William Parcher · 8th July 2017, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms

It is not only fallacious reasoning, the fact WP has repeatedly used this fallacious arguing style on this thread is evidence (to me at least) why he lacks the critical thinking skills and logic ability to solve the OP in the first place, or even understand the explanation which came later.

Derp derp burp burp. I got no critical thinkings. LOL fart fart. You got all the critical thinkings and no fallacious oneses. Hooop hooop you must be king. I got no logic too. Poop poop pooo.

Ziggurat · 8th July 2017, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

Hilited: Heading to China (where it's either yesterday or tomorrow depending on which direction and which starting point you use ) where they adopted his sister, who is stubbornly loyal to Chinese culture and thus counts her birthday from d.o.b. = 1.

Yet another "ultimate" problem by the wayside. Sad.

You're late.

Red Baron Farms · 8th July 2017, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Nope, you're wrong.

You see, not everyone considers babies 0 years old upon birth. Sometimes a baby right after birth is considered one year old. Thus, a four year old may have been born just three years ago. And someone exactly half their age would thus be born a year and a half ago. There will then be a period of time (6 months) when the older person is 13 while the younger person is 12.

Since you never specified which standard for reckoning ages your problem used, we must consider both possibilities, and 13 becomes a possibility again.

Sound argument. Sorry I missed it earlier today.

Loss Leader · 8th July 2017, 02:25 PM

This remains among the worst attempts at logical thinking that I have ever witnessed.

Unstated assumptions come and go as pleases RBF. Precision comes in and out of focus as works for him. And none of it is in any way necessary, let alone correct, let alone anything other than exceptionally, gargantuanly, heart-stoppingly stupid.

theprestige · 8th July 2017, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

How many sour grapes constitute a bunch? That's our next "math" problem.

I say 14 or 15.

Back when my sister was only half my age, it would have been one or two.

This signature is intended to irradiate people.

DGM · 8th July 2017, 03:35 PM

Has the OP revealed his "correct" answer (along with reasoning)?

shemp · 8th July 2017, 03:50 PM

Let's change the problem: For six pages so far, RBF engages in pedantic asshattery. How many more pages will it be before all other posters tire of participating in this complete waste of time?

This signature is intended to irrumate people.

bruto · 8th July 2017, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms

matters little
Still only gives you 14 and 15 rather than 13 14 and 15.
SEE ABOVE. Same principle different numbers. net result is applied to the op would still give 14 and 15 as possibilities and not 13.
Reasonable. The question didn't say that, but if it did, your argument would be irrefutable.

The way the question is worded, without invoking some ridiculous scenario, the sister is always at minimum 2 years younger or more. This means rather than like what Mike answered:
it goes the other way and is 14-15 not 13-14.

If the question said she was nominally 2 it would allow a 13 result. It said half. You can never 1/2 a number equal to or greater than 4 and get a number less than 2. So without the stupid pedantic results I promised NOT to bring to the puzzle, the answer can never include 13.

That's why I agree if we just want you say years only, 14 is an acceptable answer. But if we try to break it down to include more results like 15, then we can include 15 but not 13 without being willfully stupid about it. (like invoking leap years or time dilation/zones etc.)

The problem states that the sister is half the brother's age. In common parlance, two is half of four. I don't see why we cannot include 13. It does not state that at all times when the brother was four the sister was half the age. It states that at some arbitrary moment when the brother was nominally 4, his sister was half the age, and if we assume nominal ages, she could have turned two after he turned four, thus allowing that at some other point when he was four she was either one or two. If you allow that the brother and sister have differing birthdays you must allow for the possibility that, though for some part of the brother's year 4, she was 2, she either became two after his fourth birthday, meaning that for some time when he was 4 she was 1, or that she became 2 before his fourth birthday, meaning that for some time before his 5th birthday, she turned 3. If you want a more precise answer the rules for reporting age must be specified at the start. The only unit of measurement mentioned in the problem is the age in years, and that means simply that at some arbitrary point during the year in which the brother could be said to be four years old, the sister was half as many years old, which is two. Other assumptions are gratuitous and (obviously) endlessly arguable.

p0lka · 8th July 2017, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms

COME ON. Dont lose focus. It is a silly argument. He is being willfully ignorant. You can easily spot when someone does this. It's trivially easy. The form of the fallacious argument goes something like this:

"Wait, are you saying that (insert something clearly NOT said)"? Then argue how silly that thing was that wasn't said would be if it indeed was said.

It is not only fallacious reasoning, the fact WP has repeatedly used this fallacious arguing style on this thread is evidence (to me at least) why he lacks the critical thinking skills and logic ability to solve the OP in the first place, or even understand the explanation which came later.

People can disagree and I am perfectly fine with those here that don't agree but made sound arguments why they don't agree. However, if someone is forced to use a strawman logic fallacy or other unsound reasoning to back up their case, then it only shows they can't really back up their case. They either lack the intellectual tools, or are too lazy to think it through.

1 + 2 = 3

no it doesn't, when I said one, I meant one and a bit .......so there!
tHe aNswEr is less thaN 5.

Skeptical Greg · 8th July 2017, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by DGM

Has the OP revealed his "correct" answer (along with reasoning)?

Oh yeah..
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6&postcount=77

The reasoning is never really there..

Foolmewunz · 8th July 2017, 06:22 PM

Shouldn't this thread be moved to Puzzles, where we might find denizens who appreciate the fine art of turd-in-punchbowl solutions?

Seems that bothering these nice science and math geeks just gets their hackles up.

fromdownunder · 8th July 2017, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by DGM

Has the OP revealed his "correct" answer (along with reasoning)?

The correct answer is actually a suffusion of yellow.

Norm

Red Baron Farms · 17th July 2017, 11:55 AM

Mary is 24 yrs old. Mary is twice as old as Ana was when Mary was as old as Ana is now. How old is Ana?

theprestige · 17th July 2017, 11:57 AM

A suffusion of yellow.

Bladesman87 · 17th July 2017, 01:58 PM

The answer, unsurprisingly, falls into the category of "not wrong but".

If you make up enough of your own interpretations, assumptions, and definitions, you can come to any answer you want. And, again, it's not wrong, logically speaking. It's just utterly inane and draining for anyone making an honest effort to effectively communicate with you.

Ziggurat · 17th July 2017, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Bladesman87

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/words_that_end_in_gry.png

You're late.

Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life

I think this XKCD cartoon applies.

Red Baron Farms · 18th July 2017, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms

Mary is 24 yrs old. Mary is twice as old as Ana was when Mary was as old as Ana is now. How old is Ana?

I kind of figured no one would get this one, not even kid eager.

ddt · 18th July 2017, 05:52 AM

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms

Mary is 24 yrs old. Mary is twice as old as Ana was when Mary was as old as Ana is now. How old is Ana?

No funny games this time?

Variables:
m: current age of Mary
a: current age of Ana
d: years difference between "then" and "now"

Reformulation of the problem:
(1) m = 24
(2) m = 2 * (a - d)
(3) m - d = a

Then equation (2) becomes:
m = 2 * (a - d) = 2 * (m - 2 * d)
And thus
m = 4 * d
d = 6
That makes with (3): a = 24 - 6 = 18

Red Baron Farms · 18th July 2017, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by ddt

No funny games this time?

Variables:
m: current age of Mary
a: current age of Ana
d: years difference between "then" and "now"

Reformulation of the problem:
(1) m = 24
(2) m = 2 * (a - d)
(3) m - d = a

Then equation (2) becomes:
m = 2 * (a - d) = 2 * (m - 2 * d)
And thus
m = 4 * d
d = 6
That makes with (3): a = 24 - 6 = 18

theprestige · 18th July 2017, 09:53 AM

I've got one:

What weighs more, a box of feathers or a box of lead?

Hint:

Roboramma · 18th July 2017, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I've got one:

What weighs more, a box of feathers or a box of lead?

Hint:

The box of feathers, because yo momma is sitting on it. :boxed:

Sorry, that just seemed to fit with the level of discourse maintained by the OP.

JesseCuster · 18th July 2017, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I've got one:

What weighs more, a box of feathers or a box of lead?

Hint:

The spoiler doesn't help.

A question I've come across a few times is the following very easy question:

A man goes into a shop and buys a baseball and a baseball bat. The total price comes to $10 and the bat costs $9 more than the ball. How much did the bat cost?

I'm not surprised that lots of people give the same wrong answer (people tend to blurt out $9) because people tend to give out the first answer that comes into their head. What does surprise me is the amount of people who, after hearing the correct answer, can't understand why their answer is wrong and why the correct answer is correct.

Red Baron Farms · 18th July 2017, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by JesseCuster

I'm not surprised that lots of people give the same wrong answer (people tend to blurt out $9) because people tend to give out the first answer that comes into their head. What does surprise me is the amount of people who, after hearing the correct answer, can't understand why their answer is wrong and why the correct answer is correct.

Not to mention how angry some people get.

Myriad · 18th July 2017, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms

Not to mention how angry some people get.

Because they can't figure out that the bat was nine dollars, the ball was a free promotion with any purchase of a bat, and the sales tax was a dollar?

bruto · 18th July 2017, 02:13 PM

That riddle is usually asked in the form of what the ball cost, rather than the bat, and though I do get the answer, I must say some of the explanations for it are so badly written that they leave you scratching your head, and perhaps some of the anger over the solution comes from the fact that the thing is explained so clumsily.

Skeptical Greg · 18th July 2017, 07:06 PM

$9.50

theprestige · 18th July 2017, 07:27 PM

Well, I didn't expect anyone to get the answer to my question, not even Red Baron Farms.

This signature is intended to irradiate people.

Loss Leader · 20th July 2017, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms

COME ON. Dont lose focus. It is a silly argument. He is being willfully ignorant. You can easily spot when someone does this. It's trivially easy. The form of the fallacious argument goes something like this:

"Wait, are you saying that (insert something clearly NOT said)"? Then argue how silly that thing was that wasn't said would be if it indeed was said.

It is not only fallacious reasoning, the fact WP has repeatedly used this fallacious arguing style on this thread is evidence (to me at least) why he lacks the critical thinking skills and logic ability to solve the OP in the first place, or even understand the explanation which came later.

People can disagree and I am perfectly fine with those here that don't agree but made sound arguments why they don't agree. However, if someone is forced to use a strawman logic fallacy or other unsound reasoning to back up their case, then it only shows they can't really back up their case. They either lack the intellectual tools, or are too lazy to think it through.

Translation: "It's okay for me to make up stuff but it's wrong when you do it because reasons."

Red Baron Farms · 20th July 2017, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by Loss Leader

Translation: "It's okay for me to make up stuff but it's wrong when you do it because reasons."

That is also a strawman..just a different way to put words in someones mouth they didn't say. In this case you used the format quote something you can't argue against, then use the "translate" function to manipulate what was said into a form you can argue against. Parcher used a slightly different technique to build a strawman.

Originally Posted by William Parcher

Wait, are you saying that for the entire time that you were 4, which is 364 days, your sister was half your age? It sure does seem like you are saying that.

As you can see it also involves purposely ignoring what was said and substituting a willfully ignorant strawman instead.

Both techniques are rude, and weak. The last gasp from a weak mind that can't argue their cause directly as a few others here have done.

So the question is this, why make nasty rude strawman arguments in the first place? Are you that needing of attention that you feel you must go stomping around in the mud? Because I have already conceded that because they count ages differently in China 13,14, & 15 are all possible and I missed that point originally.

Loss Leader · 20th July 2017, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms

So the question is this, why make nasty rude strawman arguments in the first place? Are you that needing of attention that you feel you must go stomping around in the mud? Because I have already conceded that because they count ages differently in China 13,14, & 15 are all possible and I missed that point originally.

Have you conceded that they might count ages differently a thousand years from now or that one sibling might have traveled to Alpha Centauri and back at .8c? Have you conceded that the one person might be counting in Martian years and the other in earth years?

There are infinite unstated premises which you have rejected for reasons known best to yourself. The most logical thing to do - accept the question as a purely and precisely worded mathematics puzzle - is the only thing you won't do.

And that is what makes this entire enterprise very, very stupid.

Red Baron Farms · 20th July 2017, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by Loss Leader

Have you conceded that they might count ages differently a thousand years from now or that one sibling might have traveled to Alpha Centauri and back at .8c? Have you conceded that the one person might be counting in Martian years and the other in earth years?

There are infinite unstated premises which you have rejected for reasons known best to yourself. The most logical thing to do - accept the question as a purely and precisely worded mathematics puzzle - is the only thing you won't do.

And that is what makes this entire enterprise very, very stupid.

What? actually make an argument? I thought you were incapable. I apologize. So apparently you can think if you try hard enough. Not hard enough to realize that people asked (and I promised) that no silly pedantic solutions like that be used.

Red Baron Farms · 20th July 2017, 07:41 PM

16+9=1, 8+6=2, 16+13=5, 7+7=x. What is x?

theprestige · 20th July 2017, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms

What? actually make an argument? I thought you were incapable. I apologize. So apparently you can think if you try hard enough. Not hard enough to realize that people asked (and I promised) that no silly pedantic solutions like that be used.

(And then you broke your promise.)

This signature is intended to irradiate people.

Loss Leader · 20th July 2017, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms

16+9=1, 8+6=2, 16+13=5, 7+7=x. What is x?

Something stupid?

Ziggurat · 20th July 2017, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms

16+9=1, 8+6=2, 16+13=5, 7+7=x. What is x?

Is the trick just to find out the correct modulo? Do you need to figure out the right base being used as well? Give the full parameters of the problem, or it's just a stupid exercise in trying to demonstrate that the asker is clever.

theprestige · 20th July 2017, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Is the trick just to find out the correct modulo? Do you need to figure out the right base being used as well? Give the full parameters of the problem, or it's just a stupid exercise in trying to demonstrate that the asker is clever.

You're just saying that because you're too stupid to get the answer.

This signature is intended to irradiate people.

8th July 2017, 10:02 AM	#201
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' . Posts: 14,961	Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms ..... People can disagree and I am perfectly fine with those here that don't agree but made sound arguments why they don't agree. However, if someone is forced to use a strawman logic fallacy or other unsound reasoning to back up their case, then it only shows they can't really back up their case. They either lack the intellectual tools, or are too lazy to think it through. Ad hom argument.. Fail.. Your OP assumes some logical extrapolations that make the obvious answer incorrect. Then when others extrapolate even further, with results that don't agree with yours, you call foul.. Sour grapes?
	__________________ " What if the Hokey Pokey is what it's all about? " Prove your computer is not a wimp ! Join Team 13232 ! Last edited by Skeptical Greg; 8th July 2017 at 10:48 AM.

8th July 2017, 10:14 AM	#202
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 38,875	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg Sour grapes? How many sour grapes constitute a bunch? That's our next "math" problem. I say 14 or 15.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

8th July 2017, 10:42 AM	#203
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 37,728	Originally Posted by Worm Once you go beyond the simple maths that makes the answer 14, the only real answer is : There is not enough information to answer this question in a non-ambiguous way. It's just an excuse to exercise pedantry, which I recognise as a self-confessed pedant. Surprised nobody has come up with innovative solutions that involve crossing the international date line. Hilited: Heading to China (where it's either yesterday or tomorrow depending on which direction and which starting point you use ) where they adopted his sister, who is stubbornly loyal to Chinese culture and thus counts her birthday from d.o.b. = 1. Yet another "ultimate" problem by the wayside. Sad.
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.

8th July 2017, 10:45 AM	#204
Red Baron Farms Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,085	Originally Posted by Foolmewunz Hilited: Heading to China (where it's either yesterday or tomorrow depending on which direction and which starting point you use ) where they adopted his sister, who is stubbornly loyal to Chinese culture and thus counts her birthday from d.o.b. = 1. I like it! Chinese POV certainly does add an interesting wrinkle!
	__________________ Scott "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison Biome Carbon Cycle Management

8th July 2017, 10:45 AM	#205
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 19,701	Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms It is not only fallacious reasoning, the fact WP has repeatedly used this fallacious arguing style on this thread is evidence (to me at least) why he lacks the critical thinking skills and logic ability to solve the OP in the first place, or even understand the explanation which came later. Derp derp burp burp. I got no critical thinkings. LOL fart fart. You got all the critical thinkings and no fallacious oneses. Hooop hooop you must be king. I got no logic too. Poop poop pooo.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

8th July 2017, 10:46 AM	#206
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 38,875	Originally Posted by Foolmewunz Hilited: Heading to China (where it's either yesterday or tomorrow depending on which direction and which starting point you use ) where they adopted his sister, who is stubbornly loyal to Chinese culture and thus counts her birthday from d.o.b. = 1. Yet another "ultimate" problem by the wayside. Sad. You're late.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

8th July 2017, 10:49 AM	#207
Red Baron Farms Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,085	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Nope, you're wrong. You see, not everyone considers babies 0 years old upon birth. Sometimes a baby right after birth is considered one year old. Thus, a four year old may have been born just three years ago. And someone exactly half their age would thus be born a year and a half ago. There will then be a period of time (6 months) when the older person is 13 while the younger person is 12. Since you never specified which standard for reckoning ages your problem used, we must consider both possibilities, and 13 becomes a possibility again. Sound argument. Sorry I missed it earlier today.
	__________________ Scott "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison Biome Carbon Cycle Management

8th July 2017, 02:25 PM	#208
Loss Leader Do you want to date my Avatar? Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 24,981	This remains among the worst attempts at logical thinking that I have ever witnessed. Unstated assumptions come and go as pleases RBF. Precision comes in and out of focus as works for him. And none of it is in any way necessary, let alone correct, let alone anything other than exceptionally, gargantuanly, heart-stoppingly stupid.
	__________________ I have the honor to be Your Obdt. S^t L. Leader

8th July 2017, 03:13 PM	#209
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 26,094	Originally Posted by Ziggurat How many sour grapes constitute a bunch? That's our next "math" problem. I say 14 or 15. Back when my sister was only half my age, it would have been one or two. This signature is intended to irradiate people.

8th July 2017, 03:35 PM	#210
DGM Skeptic not Atheist Join Date: May 2007 Location: West of Northshore MA Posts: 24,527	Has the OP revealed his "correct" answer (along with reasoning)?
	__________________ "Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41

8th July 2017, 03:50 PM	#211
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X Posts: 26,523	Let's change the problem: For six pages so far, RBF engages in pedantic asshattery. How many more pages will it be before all other posters tire of participating in this complete waste of time? This signature is intended to irrumate people.
	__________________ "Shemp, you are the one fixed point in an ever-changing universe." - Beady "I don't want to live in a world without shemp." - Quarky Noel Gallagher isn't fit to lick the **** off the bottom of the shoes of Howard Devoto Last edited by shemp; 8th July 2017 at 03:52 PM.

8th July 2017, 03:54 PM	#212
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 22,348	Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms matters little Still only gives you 14 and 15 rather than 13 14 and 15. SEE ABOVE. Same principle different numbers. net result is applied to the op would still give 14 and 15 as possibilities and not 13. Reasonable. The question didn't say that, but if it did, your argument would be irrefutable. The way the question is worded, without invoking some ridiculous scenario, the sister is always at minimum 2 years younger or more. This means rather than like what Mike answered: it goes the other way and is 14-15 not 13-14. If the question said she was nominally 2 it would allow a 13 result. It said half. You can never 1/2 a number equal to or greater than 4 and get a number less than 2. So without the stupid pedantic results I promised NOT to bring to the puzzle, the answer can never include 13. That's why I agree if we just want you say years only, 14 is an acceptable answer. But if we try to break it down to include more results like 15, then we can include 15 but not 13 without being willfully stupid about it. (like invoking leap years or time dilation/zones etc.) The problem states that the sister is half the brother's age. In common parlance, two is half of four. I don't see why we cannot include 13. It does not state that at all times when the brother was four the sister was half the age. It states that at some arbitrary moment when the brother was nominally 4, his sister was half the age, and if we assume nominal ages, she could have turned two after he turned four, thus allowing that at some other point when he was four she was either one or two. If you allow that the brother and sister have differing birthdays you must allow for the possibility that, though for some part of the brother's year 4, she was 2, she either became two after his fourth birthday, meaning that for some time when he was 4 she was 1, or that she became 2 before his fourth birthday, meaning that for some time before his 5th birthday, she turned 3. If you want a more precise answer the rules for reporting age must be specified at the start. The only unit of measurement mentioned in the problem is the age in years, and that means simply that at some arbitrary point during the year in which the brother could be said to be four years old, the sister was half as many years old, which is two. Other assumptions are gratuitous and (obviously) endlessly arguable.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

8th July 2017, 04:27 PM	#213
p0lka Muse Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 793	Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms COME ON. Dont lose focus. It is a silly argument. He is being willfully ignorant. You can easily spot when someone does this. It's trivially easy. The form of the fallacious argument goes something like this: "Wait, are you saying that (insert something clearly NOT said)"? Then argue how silly that thing was that wasn't said would be if it indeed was said. It is not only fallacious reasoning, the fact WP has repeatedly used this fallacious arguing style on this thread is evidence (to me at least) why he lacks the critical thinking skills and logic ability to solve the OP in the first place, or even understand the explanation which came later. People can disagree and I am perfectly fine with those here that don't agree but made sound arguments why they don't agree. However, if someone is forced to use a strawman logic fallacy or other unsound reasoning to back up their case, then it only shows they can't really back up their case. They either lack the intellectual tools, or are too lazy to think it through. 1 + 2 = 3 no it doesn't, when I said one, I meant one and a bit .......so there! tHe aNswEr is less thaN 5.
p0lka Muse Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 793	Last edited by p0lka; 8th July 2017 at 04:30 PM.

8th July 2017, 04:47 PM	#214
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' . Posts: 14,961	Originally Posted by DGM Has the OP revealed his "correct" answer (along with reasoning)? Oh yeah.. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6&postcount=77 The reasoning is never really there..
	__________________ " What if the Hokey Pokey is what it's all about? " Prove your computer is not a wimp ! Join Team 13232 !

8th July 2017, 06:22 PM	#215
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 37,728	Shouldn't this thread be moved to Puzzles, where we might find denizens who appreciate the fine art of turd-in-punchbowl solutions? Seems that bothering these nice science and math geeks just gets their hackles up.
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.

8th July 2017, 06:27 PM	#216
fromdownunder Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5,776	Originally Posted by DGM Has the OP revealed his "correct" answer (along with reasoning)? The correct answer is actually a suffusion of yellow. Norm
	__________________ Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in Vain

17th July 2017, 11:55 AM	#217
Red Baron Farms Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,085	Mary is 24 yrs old. Mary is twice as old as Ana was when Mary was as old as Ana is now. How old is Ana?
	__________________ Scott "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison Biome Carbon Cycle Management

17th July 2017, 11:57 AM	#218
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 26,094	A suffusion of yellow.

17th July 2017, 01:58 PM	#219
Bladesman87 Thinker Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 158	The answer, unsurprisingly, falls into the category of "not wrong but". If you make up enough of your own interpretations, assumptions, and definitions, you can come to any answer you want. And, again, it's not wrong, logically speaking. It's just utterly inane and draining for anyone making an honest effort to effectively communicate with you.
Bladesman87 Thinker Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 158

17th July 2017, 02:00 PM	#220
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 38,875	Originally Posted by Bladesman87 https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/words_that_end_in_gry.png You're late. Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life I think this XKCD cartoon applies.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

18th July 2017, 04:37 AM	#221
Red Baron Farms Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,085	Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms Mary is 24 yrs old. Mary is twice as old as Ana was when Mary was as old as Ana is now. How old is Ana? I kind of figured no one would get this one, not even kid eager.
	__________________ Scott "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison Biome Carbon Cycle Management Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 18th July 2017 at 04:39 AM.

18th July 2017, 05:52 AM	#222
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 18,534	Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms Mary is 24 yrs old. Mary is twice as old as Ana was when Mary was as old as Ana is now. How old is Ana? No funny games this time? Variables: m: current age of Mary a: current age of Ana d: years difference between "then" and "now" Reformulation of the problem: (1) m = 24 (2) m = 2 * (a - d) (3) m - d = a Then equation (2) becomes: m = 2 * (a - d) = 2 * (m - 2 * d) And thus m = 4 * d d = 6 That makes with (3): a = 24 - 6 = 18
	__________________ Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa" "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

18th July 2017, 06:29 AM	#223
Red Baron Farms Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,085	Originally Posted by ddt No funny games this time? Variables: m: current age of Mary a: current age of Ana d: years difference between "then" and "now" Reformulation of the problem: (1) m = 24 (2) m = 2 * (a - d) (3) m - d = a Then equation (2) becomes: m = 2 * (a - d) = 2 * (m - 2 * d) And thus m = 4 * d d = 6 That makes with (3): a = 24 - 6 = 18
	__________________ Scott "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison Biome Carbon Cycle Management

18th July 2017, 09:53 AM	#224
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 26,094	I've got one: What weighs more, a box of feathers or a box of lead? Hint: The box of lead is bigger than the box of feathers.

18th July 2017, 09:59 AM	#225
Roboramma Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 10,311	Originally Posted by theprestige I've got one: What weighs more, a box of feathers or a box of lead? Hint: The box of lead is bigger than the box of feathers. The box of feathers, because yo momma is sitting on it. :boxed: Sorry, that just seemed to fit with the level of discourse maintained by the OP.
	__________________ "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov

18th July 2017, 11:37 AM	#226
JesseCuster Muse Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 788	Originally Posted by theprestige I've got one: What weighs more, a box of feathers or a box of lead? Hint: The box of lead is bigger than the box of feathers. The spoiler doesn't help. The box of lead might be bigger but it doesn't say anything about the material the box is made of or how thick the box's walls are. The box of feathers might be in a box made of thick lead and the box of lead might contain some lead grains inside a cardboard box slightly bigger than the lead box the feathers are in. A question I've come across a few times is the following very easy question: A man goes into a shop and buys a baseball and a baseball bat. The total price comes to $10 and the bat costs $9 more than the ball. How much did the bat cost? I'm not surprised that lots of people give the same wrong answer (people tend to blurt out $9) because people tend to give out the first answer that comes into their head. What does surprise me is the amount of people who, after hearing the correct answer, can't understand why their answer is wrong and why the correct answer is correct.
JesseCuster Muse Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 788

18th July 2017, 12:09 PM	#227
Red Baron Farms Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,085	Originally Posted by JesseCuster I'm not surprised that lots of people give the same wrong answer (people tend to blurt out $9) because people tend to give out the first answer that comes into their head. What does surprise me is the amount of people who, after hearing the correct answer, can't understand why their answer is wrong and why the correct answer is correct. Not to mention how angry some people get.
	__________________ Scott "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison Biome Carbon Cycle Management

18th July 2017, 12:32 PM	#228
Myriad Hyperthetical Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 13,487	Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms Not to mention how angry some people get. Because they can't figure out that the bat was nine dollars, the ball was a free promotion with any purchase of a bat, and the sales tax was a dollar?
	__________________ A zømbie once bit my sister...

18th July 2017, 02:13 PM	#229
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 22,348	That riddle is usually asked in the form of what the ball cost, rather than the bat, and though I do get the answer, I must say some of the explanations for it are so badly written that they leave you scratching your head, and perhaps some of the anger over the solution comes from the fact that the thing is explained so clumsily.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

18th July 2017, 07:06 PM	#230
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' . Posts: 14,961	$9.50
	__________________ " What if the Hokey Pokey is what it's all about? " Prove your computer is not a wimp ! Join Team 13232 !

18th July 2017, 07:27 PM	#231
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 26,094	Well, I didn't expect anyone to get the answer to my question, not even Red Baron Farms. This signature is intended to irradiate people.

20th July 2017, 03:12 PM	#232
Loss Leader Do you want to date my Avatar? Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 24,981	Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms COME ON. Dont lose focus. It is a silly argument. He is being willfully ignorant. You can easily spot when someone does this. It's trivially easy. The form of the fallacious argument goes something like this: "Wait, are you saying that (insert something clearly NOT said)"? Then argue how silly that thing was that wasn't said would be if it indeed was said. It is not only fallacious reasoning, the fact WP has repeatedly used this fallacious arguing style on this thread is evidence (to me at least) why he lacks the critical thinking skills and logic ability to solve the OP in the first place, or even understand the explanation which came later. People can disagree and I am perfectly fine with those here that don't agree but made sound arguments why they don't agree. However, if someone is forced to use a strawman logic fallacy or other unsound reasoning to back up their case, then it only shows they can't really back up their case. They either lack the intellectual tools, or are too lazy to think it through. Translation: "It's okay for me to make up stuff but it's wrong when you do it because reasons."
	__________________ I have the honor to be Your Obdt. S^t L. Leader

20th July 2017, 05:32 PM	#233
Red Baron Farms Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,085	Originally Posted by Loss Leader Translation: "It's okay for me to make up stuff but it's wrong when you do it because reasons." That is also a strawman..just a different way to put words in someones mouth they didn't say. In this case you used the format quote something you can't argue against, then use the "translate" function to manipulate what was said into a form you can argue against. Parcher used a slightly different technique to build a strawman. Originally Posted by William Parcher Wait, are you saying that for the entire time that you were 4, which is 364 days, your sister was half your age? It sure does seem like you are saying that. As you can see it also involves purposely ignoring what was said and substituting a willfully ignorant strawman instead. Both techniques are rude, and weak. The last gasp from a weak mind that can't argue their cause directly as a few others here have done. So the question is this, why make nasty rude strawman arguments in the first place? Are you that needing of attention that you feel you must go stomping around in the mud? Because I have already conceded that because they count ages differently in China 13,14, & 15 are all possible and I missed that point originally.
	__________________ Scott "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison Biome Carbon Cycle Management

20th July 2017, 06:54 PM	#234
Loss Leader Do you want to date my Avatar? Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 24,981	Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms So the question is this, why make nasty rude strawman arguments in the first place? Are you that needing of attention that you feel you must go stomping around in the mud? Because I have already conceded that because they count ages differently in China 13,14, & 15 are all possible and I missed that point originally. Have you conceded that they might count ages differently a thousand years from now or that one sibling might have traveled to Alpha Centauri and back at .8c? Have you conceded that the one person might be counting in Martian years and the other in earth years? There are infinite unstated premises which you have rejected for reasons known best to yourself. The most logical thing to do - accept the question as a purely and precisely worded mathematics puzzle - is the only thing you won't do. And that is what makes this entire enterprise very, very stupid.
	__________________ I have the honor to be Your Obdt. S^t L. Leader

20th July 2017, 07:04 PM	#235
Red Baron Farms Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,085	Originally Posted by Loss Leader Have you conceded that they might count ages differently a thousand years from now or that one sibling might have traveled to Alpha Centauri and back at .8c? Have you conceded that the one person might be counting in Martian years and the other in earth years? There are infinite unstated premises which you have rejected for reasons known best to yourself. The most logical thing to do - accept the question as a purely and precisely worded mathematics puzzle - is the only thing you won't do. And that is what makes this entire enterprise very, very stupid. What? actually make an argument? I thought you were incapable. I apologize. So apparently you can think if you try hard enough. Not hard enough to realize that people asked (and I promised) that no silly pedantic solutions like that be used.
	__________________ Scott "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison Biome Carbon Cycle Management