ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 10th July 2017, 08:51 AM   #1
WilliamSeger
Master Poster
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,057
A Jaw-Dropping List of All the Terrible Things Trump Has Done to Mother Earth

At least one part of the Republican agenda isn't being hampered by Trump's ignorance, indifference and incompetence.

http://www.motherjones.com/environme...-mother-earth/

Originally Posted by Mother Jones
Goodbye regulations designed to protect the environment and public health.

Donald Trump’s decision to withdraw the US from the Paris climate deal may have followed months of anguished division among his closest advisers, but his administration has proceeded with quiet efficiency in its dismantling of other major environmental policies.

The White House, Congress and the Environmental Protection Agency have dovetailed to engineer a dizzying reversal of clean air and water regulations implemented by Barack Obama’s administration.

Unlike the travel ban or healthcare, Trump has faced few obstacles in sweeping away what he has called “job-killing” environmental rules that address problems such as climate change, water pollution and smoggy air.

“I’ve been very concerned by what I’ve seen—this is about people’s health,” said Christine Todd Whitman, a Republican who was the EPA administrator under George W Bush, and also served as governor of New Jersey. “They are undermining science and people’s respect for science. They don’t seem to care.”
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 08:59 AM   #2
Civet
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 828
I know that conservatives are much more likely to reject anthropogenic climate change, but I also got the impression that they were very concerned about air and water contaminants. I'm always seeing a lot of water purifier stuff for sale on right-wing sites and a huge amount of obsessing over mercury and lead exposure. Are they just okay with this since Trump's doing it?
Civet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 09:37 AM   #3
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,833
Gee, what a Great & Powerful Wizard he must be to actually do terrible things to Mother Earth in a mere six months.
__________________
Great minds discuss ideas.
Medium minds discuss events.
Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 09:50 AM   #4
Armitage72
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,564
Back when the economy tanked in 2008, I saw people claim that the best way to fix it was to temporarily ( ) suspend all environmental regulations, which would allow American companies to be profitable and competitive again, which would quickly revitalize the economy.

What could possibly go wrong?
Armitage72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 10:37 AM   #5
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 54,081
Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Back when the economy tanked in 2008, I saw people claim that the best way to fix it was to temporarily ( ) suspend all environmental regulations, which would allow American companies to be profitable and competitive again, which would quickly revitalize the economy.

What could possibly go wrong?
I have no children to worry about as to the future. And will certainly be dead before the really bad stuff starts piling on. But a lot of people out there do
but do not seem to give a **** about what happens to their children and grandchildren.
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 11:00 AM   #6
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 37,825
Wait. What's the basis for Whitman's criticism? She was EPA head under Bush, but the rules that are being rolled back are mostly stuff that she never sought to push for when she was in charge. If Whitman thinks those Obama-era rules are really so critical, why didn't she push for them under her watch?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 11:02 AM   #7
snoop_doxie
Graduate Poster
 
snoop_doxie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: In my reality tunnel
Posts: 1,385
Originally Posted by Civet View Post
I know that conservatives are much more likely to reject anthropogenic climate change, but I also got the impression that they were very concerned about air and water contaminants. I'm always seeing a lot of water purifier stuff for sale on right-wing sites and a huge amount of obsessing over mercury and lead exposure. Are they just okay with this since Trump's doing it?
For those who want to be prepared for next apocalyptic event.

I think one of the right wing talk show hosts sells freeze dried food
for "preppers".
__________________
Formerly known as member wicked_ways
snoop_doxie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 11:06 AM   #8
The_Animus
Master Poster
 
The_Animus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,529
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Gee, what a Great & Powerful Wizard he must be to actually do terrible things to Mother Earth in a mere six months.
Gee, what a witty nitpicking of the title. Even if you've been living under a rock and don't know what is being referenced, it's in the linked article. I think anyone using the barest critical thinking and context skills understands that many of the decisions of the Trump administration are going to be bad for the environment and peoples health.
__________________
Straw Man, Ad Hominem, Moving the Goalposts, and a massive post count are all good indicators that a poster is intellectually dishonest and not interested in real discussion.

Feeding trolls only makes them stronger, yet it is so hard to refrain.
The_Animus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 04:33 PM   #9
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 14,119
Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Gee, what a witty nitpicking of the title. Even if you've been living under a rock and don't know what is being referenced, it's in the linked article. I think anyone using the barest critical thinking and context skills understands that many of the decisions of the Trump administration are going to be bad for the environment and peoples health.
And anyone using the barest critical thinking and context skills will generally avoid sources like Mother Jones.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 09:36 PM   #10
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,833
It's all politics per the old axiom "Keep the people scared so they will vote for me to lead them to safety". In this case the Liberals are eco-terrorizing. Converse is the Conservatives "They are ruining the economy with their restrictions! Elevnetydoom1111" Vote for the party with the scariest doomsayings.!
__________________
Great minds discuss ideas.
Medium minds discuss events.
Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 10:09 PM   #11
The Great Zaganza
Master Poster
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,470
If Republicans could be made to believe that Climate Change is caused by Big Government, they would become the greenest party on the planet.
__________________
"eventually we will get something done."
- Donald J. Trump
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 10:14 PM   #12
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 22,039
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Wait. What's the basis for Whitman's criticism? She was EPA head under Bush, but the rules that are being rolled back are mostly stuff that she never sought to push for when she was in charge. If Whitman thinks those Obama-era rules are really so critical, why didn't she push for them under her watch?
You know that she didn't? Or, maybe if she wanted to, Bush et. al. let her know in no uncertain terms that such ideas were a non-starter.

You post suggests more that a little naivete.

Also, whether she did or not has no bearing on her present day stance thus rendering your post rather irrelevant.

Last edited by SezMe; 10th July 2017 at 10:16 PM.
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 10:19 PM   #13
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 22,039
Originally Posted by snoop_doxie View Post
For those who want to be prepared for next apocalyptic event.

I think one of the right wing talk show hosts sells freeze dried food
for "preppers".
Jim Bakker One of the slimiest of the conservative christian hawkers of crap to the rubes.
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 11:07 PM   #14
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 5,223
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
And anyone using the barest critical thinking and context skills will generally avoid sources like Mother Jones.
Does not address the argument made in the article or this thread.

Originally Posted by casebro View Post
It's all politics per the old axiom "Keep the people scared so they will vote for me to lead them to safety". In this case the Liberals are eco-terrorizing. Converse is the Conservatives "They are ruining the economy with their restrictions! Elevnetydoom1111" Vote for the party with the scariest doomsayings.!
Any reasoning behind this? I assume you levy the charge because you disagree with the science involved.

***

The real issue is the downstream regulatory management of law in government agencies. In favor of this practice is the ability to analyze and technically address real issues in science and technology using experts, lending a proper approach to what are, after all, technical issues. In short, if the science is beyond John Q Public, how then does one deal with the issues? Here's one way: Elected reps name experts to agencies and monitor them, so JQP's voice is there throughout.

Against the idea of experts developing regulatory frameworks is the notion that there is only one truth, it is not amenable to modification by science, and that truth is that, left to their own devices, little boys should be able to play unsupervised, as is their right, even if that means poisoning the ground water and fouling the air. To go no further, animals and people should die from lead poisoning if that means oil companies can sell leaded gasoline, or "ethyl," to use the unmistakable propaganda name. That's fifty years of knowingly willing the death of others for profit right there (a real showstopper for Randian-libertarian "righteous owner" proponents).

Then again, why not have those fine evolution-denying, AGW-refusing, fact-phobic ladies and gents in the House and Senate do all the science, guided by industry, who, being led by the type of unthinking alpha males Republicans worship, know better? As Trump supporters all know, thumb sucking in abject mental slavery is fun! And if things blow up, "Not my fault!," "I was misled." The easy life for the ethically inert and intellectually challenged.
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion. Spends that time videogaming.
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 11:55 PM   #15
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 28,706
Originally Posted by Civet View Post
I know that conservatives are much more likely to reject anthropogenic climate change, but I also got the impression that they were very concerned about air and water contaminants. I'm always seeing a lot of water purifier stuff for sale on right-wing sites and a huge amount of obsessing over mercury and lead exposure. Are they just okay with this since Trump's doing it?

They probably think that it's environmental regulation that is causing the problem, and if they can get rid of 'Big Government' everything will be fine.

We used to have a poster here who claimed that the medical industry was deliberately poisoning us for profit, and thought that the way to fix it was to abolish the FDA and make the industry self-regulating.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 05:52 AM   #16
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 37,825
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
You know that she didn't? Or, maybe if she wanted to, Bush et. al. let her know in no uncertain terms that such ideas were a non-starter.
Then why did she stay in the position?

Quote:
You post suggests more that a little naivete.

Also, whether she did or not has no bearing on her present day stance thus rendering your post rather irrelevant.
You have that exactly backwards. You are being naive about her possible motives here.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 06:00 AM   #17
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 37,825
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
The real issue is the downstream regulatory management of law in government agencies. In favor of this practice is the ability to analyze and technically address real issues in science and technology using experts, lending a proper approach to what are, after all, technical issues.
But they aren't technical issues. Or more precisely, they are not only technical issues. There are always tradeoffs. So who gets to decide what the tradeoffs are? If you simply hand all the decisions to a bunch of technocrats, you aren't simply being pro-science, you're also being anti-democratic.

Quote:
In short, if the science is beyond John Q Public, how then does one deal with the issues? Here's one way: Elected reps name experts to agencies and monitor them, so JQP's voice is there throughout.
JQP's voice was just heard in the election of Trump.

Quote:
Against the idea of experts developing regulatory frameworks is the notion that there is only one truth, it is not amenable to modification by science, and that truth is that, left to their own devices, little boys should be able to play unsupervised, as is their right, even if that means poisoning the ground water and fouling the air. To go no further, animals and people should die from lead poisoning if that means oil companies can sell leaded gasoline, or "ethyl," to use the unmistakable propaganda name. That's fifty years of knowingly willing the death of others for profit right there (a real showstopper for Randian-libertarian "righteous owner" proponents).
This is chicken little hyperbole. We aren't going back to leaded gasoline. America under Bill Clinton was not a hellhole of toxicity everywhere.

The real tell here is that hyperbole about a complete lack of any environmental regulations is basically all that's on offer here. Nobody has really defended the specific rules that are being scaled back here. Is it that you don't know the merits involved? Or do you not care?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 10:53 AM   #18
The_Animus
Master Poster
 
The_Animus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,529
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
And anyone using the barest critical thinking and context skills will generally avoid sources like Mother Jones.
They have liberal bias which sometimes results in poor articles but they also sometimes have really good quality reporting.

Determining which is which is where those critical thinking and context skills come into play.
__________________
Straw Man, Ad Hominem, Moving the Goalposts, and a massive post count are all good indicators that a poster is intellectually dishonest and not interested in real discussion.

Feeding trolls only makes them stronger, yet it is so hard to refrain.
The_Animus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 11:23 AM   #19
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,833
[quote=Hlafordlaes;11915482.....
Any reasoning behind this? I assume you levy the charge because you disagree with the science involved.

***

.[/QUOTE]

What charge?

Am I thinking Big Picture Strategy, while you are thinking Tactics: Green vs Not Green?
__________________
Great minds discuss ideas.
Medium minds discuss events.
Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 11:38 AM   #20
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 63,855
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Gee, what a Great & Powerful Wizard he must be to actually do terrible things to Mother Earth in a mere six months.
Give me the nuclear codes and I can make it uninhabitable to all multicellular life in minutes.
__________________
"So let it be written. So let it be done."
Argumemnon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 11:59 AM   #21
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 37,825
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Give me the nuclear codes and I can make it uninhabitable to all multicellular life in minutes.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 12:04 PM   #22
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 63,855
Hey, I didn't say I would.
__________________
"So let it be written. So let it be done."
Argumemnon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 12:06 PM   #23
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 21,506
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Give me the nuclear codes and I can make it uninhabitable to all multicellular life in minutes.
Which codes? America's? Russia's *All of them*?

What's your targeting scenario? Traditional Cold War, with full MAD escalation to counter-value strikes across North America and Europe?

Or did you have in mind a more comprehensive (and geopolitcally incoherent) global targeting scheme?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 12:09 PM   #24
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 63,855
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Which codes? America's? Russia's *All of them*?

What's your targeting scenario? Traditional Cold War, with full MAD escalation to counter-value strikes across North America and Europe?

Or did you have in mind a more comprehensive (and geopolitcally incoherent) global targeting scheme?
Oh, I'd just lob one on Moscow to trigger the response, then pepper the rest of the world to make sure nothing makes it out alive. There may be a few pockets of survivors but they'll be sterile so it's not a problem.
__________________
"So let it be written. So let it be done."
Argumemnon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 12:30 PM   #25
paulhutch
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Blackstone River Valley, MA
Posts: 1,791
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Wait. What's the basis for Whitman's criticism? She was EPA head under Bush, but the rules that are being rolled back are mostly stuff that she never sought to push for when she was in charge. If Whitman thinks those Obama-era rules are really so critical, why didn't she push for them under her watch?
AFAIK, some of those rules where responses to environmental problems that either happened, or where discovered, after she left office. Others were problems still being investigated or litigated at the time she left office. Some more where waiting on the completion of scientific studies before appropriate rules could be written. Still others where based on new scientific studies and/or changed economic conditions that occurred after she left office.
paulhutch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 03:31 PM   #26
Polaris
Penultimate Amazing
 
Polaris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,976
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But they aren't technical issues. Or more precisely, they are not only technical issues. There are always tradeoffs. So who gets to decide what the tradeoffs are? If you simply hand all the decisions to a bunch of technocrats, you aren't simply being pro-science, you're also being anti-democratic.



JQP's voice was just heard in the election of Trump.



This is chicken little hyperbole. We aren't going back to leaded gasoline. America under Bill Clinton was not a hellhole of toxicity everywhere.

The real tell here is that hyperbole about a complete lack of any environmental regulations is basically all that's on offer here. Nobody has really defended the specific rules that are being scaled back here. Is it that you don't know the merits involved? Or do you not care?
Not really. He lost the popular vote.
__________________
"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar

"Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk.
Polaris is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 04:01 PM   #27
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 54,081
Originally Posted by snoop_doxie View Post
For those who want to be prepared for next apocalyptic event.

I think one of the right wing talk show hosts sells freeze dried food
for "preppers".
So does Amazon!!!!!
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 04:07 PM   #28
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 21,506
Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Not really. He lost the popular vote.
"Millions of citizens got the president they wanted, according to the election system they had agreed to use. Millions of citizens did *not* get the president they wanted, also according to the election system they agreed to use. From this we who did not get what we wanted conclude that the public's voice was not heard in this election."
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 05:19 PM   #29
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,833
Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Not really. He lost the popular vote.
And if we change the rules, WHAM, there would be 5,000,000 Republican votes in California that would actually count.

Other stats prove that if we used the popular vote, Trump would have still won. So enough with the "usurper" talk. He won, no matter how you count, or wish you count.
__________________
Great minds discuss ideas.
Medium minds discuss events.
Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 05:29 PM   #30
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 63,855
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And if we change the rules, WHAM, there would be 5,000,000 Republican votes in California that would actually count.

Other stats prove that if we used the popular vote, Trump would have still won. So enough with the "usurper" talk. He won, no matter how you count, or wish you count.
Seriously. The popular vote doesn't count in the US electoral system. Live with it, or get it changed. Don't do what Trump did back in 2012 and whine about when you lose (or think you've lost, in his case).
__________________
"So let it be written. So let it be done."
Argumemnon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 07:12 PM   #31
Polaris
Penultimate Amazing
 
Polaris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,976
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Millions of citizens got the president they wanted, according to the election system they had agreed to use. Millions of citizens did *not* get the president they wanted, also according to the election system they agreed to use. From this we who did not get what we wanted conclude that the public's voice was not heard in this election."
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And if we change the rules, WHAM, there would be 5,000,000 Republican votes in California that would actually count.

Other stats prove that if we used the popular vote, Trump would have still won. So enough with the "usurper" talk. He won, no matter how you count, or wish you count.
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Seriously. The popular vote doesn't count in the US electoral system. Live with it, or get it changed. Don't do what Trump did back in 2012 and whine about when you lose (or think you've lost, in his case).
Zig claimed that John Q Public's voice was heard in the election of Trump. Since Trump lost the popular vote, that claim is false. Of course Trump won the EC vote. Whether that's right and good or not is a whole other matter, and not relevant here.
__________________
"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar

"Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk.
Polaris is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 07:39 PM   #32
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 37,825
Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Zig claimed that John Q Public's voice was heard in the election of Trump. Since Trump lost the popular vote, that claim is false.
No, it isn't false. There is no legalistic definition of "heard" in this context, nor is JQP identified solely by plurality. If you want to get pedantic about something, make sure you're actually right about it first.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 10:51 PM   #33
Shadowdweller
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 563
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And if we change the rules, WHAM, there would be 5,000,000 Republican votes in California that would actually count.

Other stats prove that if we used the popular vote, Trump would have still won. So enough with the "usurper" talk. He won, no matter how you count, or wish you count.
You mean if you pretend that "popular vote" means something completely different?

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 11th July 2017 at 11:08 PM.
Shadowdweller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 10:54 PM   #34
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 22,039
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You are being naive about her possible motives here.
Used to be, long ago, that you could win $! mil for such mind reading skills.
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 10:56 PM   #35
Shadowdweller
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 563
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Millions of citizens got the president they wanted, according to the election system they had agreed to use. Millions of citizens did *not* get the president they wanted, also according to the election system they agreed to use. From this we who did not get what we wanted conclude that the public's voice was not heard in this election."
Not a single living person agreed to the winner-take-all electoral system, at least on a national level. This country was unable to even pass so much as a constitutional statement asserting straight up that individuals of each gender deserved equal rights. Letting alone the long, blatant, and deliberately anti-democratic policies of the Republican leadership.
Shadowdweller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 12:34 AM   #36
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 27,845
Originally Posted by Civet View Post
I know that conservatives are much more likely to reject anthropogenic climate change, but I also got the impression that they were very concerned about air and water contaminants. I'm always seeing a lot of water purifier stuff for sale on right-wing sites and a huge amount of obsessing over mercury and lead exposure. Are they just okay with this since Trump's doing it?
Not really. It's their philosophy that only those who can afford it should get clean water.
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 04:12 AM   #37
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 37,825
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Used to be, long ago, that you could win $! mil for such mind reading skills.
No. Rather, it takes ordinary reading skills to notice the word "possible".
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 04:15 AM   #38
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 37,825
Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Not a single living person agreed to the winner-take-all electoral system, at least on a national level.
And not a single person agreed to the appointment of all those EPA bureaucrats and their decisions, at least on a national level.

You can't claim the system is democratic to justify whatever it does that you like, but that same system is undemocratic to delegitimize whatever you don't.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 04:37 AM   #39
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 63,855
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And not a single person agreed to the appointment of all those EPA bureaucrats and their decisions, at least on a national level.

You can't claim the system is democratic to justify whatever it does that you like, but that same system is undemocratic to delegitimize whatever you don't.
Of course he can. People do it all the time!
__________________
"So let it be written. So let it be done."
Argumemnon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2017, 09:20 PM   #40
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 22,039
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. Rather, it takes ordinary reading skills to notice the word "possible".
Yes, it takes ordinary reading skills to notice the word "possible" does not affect my post.

Ain't this fun, Zig.
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:53 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.