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Tags gun control issues , gun control laws

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Old 16th July 2017, 06:45 AM   #161
Cain
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So let's talk about the psycho(s) in Pennsylvania who killed four young men. The first victim was said to show up to the farm to buy $8,000 of marijuana, but only had $800 so instead agreed to buy a gun. Why didn't he already have a gun? Because the ridiculous laws in this country prohibit people with criminal records from arming themselves (even though they will anyway). If he had been armed, then he could've stopped Cosmo DiNardo. The bad guy with a gun could've stopped the super-bad guy. Basic logic.
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Old 16th July 2017, 07:39 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
That highlighted word makes mince meat of your point. How many perps of violent crime actually get arrested? All you data shows is that CCW holders are careful not to be arrested.

Ok, ok, that's not fair. But it is fair to point out that arrest records do not reflect actual crime rates.


My bold. You see the problem. One cannot equate arrest rates with crime rates. Period.




For the reason cited above. Your equating crime rate with arrest rate is fallacious.
Great attempt to grasp at straws. Do you have any data to suggest that crime rates and arrest rates for ccw holders are significantly out of whack?

Thought not.
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Old 16th July 2017, 08:12 AM   #163
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Why is it that we think throwing guns out to the untrained masses is somehow going to make us safer? It's a well-trained, tactically sound, disciplined marksman with knowledge of the lawful use of force with a gun who stops a bad guy with a gun.

How many people know how ridiculously easy it is in most shall issue states to get a permit? In some states, a hunter safety course qualifies. There's a reason when law enforcement and military members learn to handle and employ firearms it takes weeks.
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Old 16th July 2017, 12:21 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Historically, the German police having a monopoly on violence worked out so well.
It actually did.
It went all a-foul when groups other than the regular (Interior Ministries of the states of the federation) police were given guns. SA, SS (The Gestapo - "secret state police" was not police, it was SS), other party cadres of the NSDAP. Similarly, the infamous StaSi (State Security) and Grenzpolizei (border police) where not run by the Interior Ministry, as the ordinary police was, but by a special ministry.
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Old 16th July 2017, 01:06 PM   #165
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There are thugs who are after your property. Some are just after a rowdy time. Many surely are dealing with drugs - supply-side or demand-side - and do not wish to get interfered with. Some may want to sell drugs to your son. These are the vast majority of criminals, as opposed to those out to murder or imjure you.

It is my perception that practically all these sorts of thugs come mostly unarmed in Europe. Very few guns involved. Why, if they get caught, carrying a gun aggravates their legal trouble. The thing is: They are up against a general non-police population that, too, is essentially unarmed. You see, in their thuggish daily dealings, there is a need to consider what to do should a victim or a passer-by resist. The answer in Europe will often be: Just run, or beat and run.

It's quite different when a significant percentage of the general population is armed. Then you must consider, while committing your burglary, theft, robbery, drug deal, what to do if you encounter a victim or passer-by, and assess the risj they might be able to effectively use a gun against you - whether by just showing it to you (threat) or actual use.
Some would-be-non-violent criminals may decide to not do the crime. Many others will find that their best course of action is to bring a gun, and be prepared to use it, and use it quickly and ruthlessly.

And that, IMO, can be a powerful mechanism by which violent, gun-related crime increases where CCW increases.

That is essentially an arms race, and in that arms race, the thugs will come out on top, on balance, simply because they will be more prepared (they usually choose time and setting of the encounter) and less reined in by ethical qualms.


It would be interesting if research existed that looked at the hypothesis above.
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:04 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Except statistically, the crime victimization rate of former mayors of major metros is far lass than the criminal victimization rate of just about anyone else and it for sure isn't because the disparity in numbers between the mayors and the genpop.
But I think this is an apples/oranges comparison. If I understand the statistics, a large portion of gun violence is committed by people known to the victim, but please correct me if I am wrong. If I'm right, then I don't think those who would do harm to Bloomberg are one of his friends or relatives so the comparison breaks down.

Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
The best security in the world is status and power. Bloomberg has all of it.
On that we have no disagreement.
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:08 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Great attempt to grasp at straws. Do you have any data to suggest that crime rates and arrest rates for ccw holders are significantly out of whack?
It's your claim that they are alike. You know where that places the burden, right?

Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Thought not.
Clever.
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Old 17th July 2017, 10:26 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
What is "sufficient"? One threat? 18 threats? And how are we to measure "credible"?

As an aside, are you stating that you are sufficiently well known that you receive a "sufficient" number of "credible" threats to you and your family that justifies armed protection? Cecile, is that you?
My issues are credible and we're well known enough to the gentlemen who'd like to have us killed. I'm involved in a murder trial. Two of my family provided witness testimony that blew the defendant's insanity plea out of the water. As result of that we've been told that we're not very well thought of in thug land and several of them would like to have a word with us.

I'm concerned about this a bit.
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Old 17th July 2017, 10:32 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
It's your claim that they are alike. You know where that places the burden, right?
Burden of proof:
"When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim especially when it challenges a perceived status quo"

I don't think that claiming there is a correlation between ccw holders arrest rates and crime rates is a challenge to the perceived status quo... i'd say it is the perceived status quo. If you have evidence that the two are disproportionate, then please present it!

(Remember, to make the OP study "work" you'll need to explain a 13-15% rise in crime as being the work of people who commit 1-2% of offences... so you need to show the arrest rates vs actual crime rates as being out of whack by a factor of 10.)
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Old 17th July 2017, 11:23 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
(Remember, to make the OP study "work" you'll need to explain a 13-15% rise in crime as being the work of people who commit 1-2% of offences... so you need to show the arrest rates vs actual crime rates as being out of whack by a factor of 10.)
Remember, the OP's claim is not that lawful carriers will commit less crime, but that they will prevent more crime: Good guys with guns will stop bad guys with guns. The prediction is that in addition to not committing crimes themselves, they will prevent others from committing more crimes.

One obvious flaw with the OP's thesis is inherent in the claim itself: A good guy with a gun stops a bad guy with a gun. But this only comes into play if the bad guy starts using his gun. And at that point, the incident gets written up as a violent crime regardless of how it turns out. If a bad guy opens fire, and a good guy shoots him dead before the bad guy hits anyone, that supports the claim that a good guy with a gun stops a bad guy with a gun. But the statistics will still say a violent crime was committed there, even though a good guy with a gun was present.

So I question the premise of the OP, and the usefulness of the cited study. To really understand the effect of good guys with guns on bad guys with guns, we'd have to look at statistics having to do with how many times the two encountered each other, and what the outcomes were.

For the moment, all we can really say is that lawful firearms carriers tend to be statistically less criminal and violent than unlawful carriers. And that by itself is a positive outcome of permitting lawful carry, even if good guys with guns have no other effect on the violent criminal activities of bad guys with guns.
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Old 17th July 2017, 11:32 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
...To really understand the effect of good guys with guns on bad guys with guns, we'd have to look at statistics having to do with how many times the two encountered each other, and what the outcomes were. ...
No.
The mere fear that there might be good guys with guns might convince bad guys to bring a gun themselves, and/or use it very nervously. Such an effect would drive up violent crime rate, regardless of whether or not a good guy with a gun is encountered.
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Old 18th July 2017, 05:51 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
No.
The mere fear that there might be good guys with guns might convince bad guys to bring a gun themselves, and/or use it very nervously. Such an effect would drive up violent crime rate, regardless of whether or not a good guy with a gun is encountered.
No.
Criminals in the US are likely to carry because they can and there's little or no incentive for them to stop.
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Old 18th July 2017, 06:57 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
No.
Criminals in the US are likely to carry because they can and there's little or no incentive for them to stop.
Thus, the need for stricter gun control.
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Old 19th July 2017, 02:39 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
No.
Criminals in the US are likely to carry because they can and there's little or no incentive for them to stop.
So you agree that the extra penalties associated with a criminal act that includes the showing/use of a gun have no deterrent effect? <--Genuine question, not meant to be hostile.
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Old 19th July 2017, 05:26 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
No.
Criminals in the US are likely to carry because they can and there's little or no incentive for them to stop.
Are criminals in the USA a species completely different from criminals in Europe or Australia? Brains wired differently? No soul? Went to schools that teach guns are good?

Oh, the latter seems to make sense.


ETA: I cannot trust your judgement anyway after this example of blind, biased, obvious stupidity, which is so out of character for you:
Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
The fact remains that the states with the strictest gun laws have the fewest gun related deaths.
Except for that pesky California, which dog gone it, seems to clock in around 2,500 to 3,000 fatalities a year from firearms, no matter what.
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Old 19th July 2017, 05:31 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Are criminals in the USA a species completely different from criminals in Europe or Australia? Brains wired differently? No soul? Went to schools that teach guns are good?

Oh, the latter seems to make sense.
I think you left out a few possibilities.
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Old 19th July 2017, 05:45 AM   #177
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Often, the add-on penalties for "armed criminal action" are used as a bargaining chip by prosecutors.
"Cop to the robbery, and we'll drop the ACA charge."

A conviction is obtained, the robber gets less time, everybody happy. But little incentive to avoid being armed.

Armed criminal types tend to be by category, in my experience. We essentially never find folks indulging in petty crime like bicycle theft or thefts from offices or shoplifters going about armed.
However, people who are involved in the drug trade, gang members, robbery suspects, are very frequently armed.
These people live in a violent world, and are not only concerned with intimidating potential victims but being attacked by rival gang members or having "deals" go south or whatever.
It's part of the criminal culture and has been so for a very long time.
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Old 19th July 2017, 06:19 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I think you left out a few possibilities.
Feel free to add some.
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Old 19th July 2017, 06:32 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Feel free to add some.
Ok, it's because you can't think of any.
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Old 19th July 2017, 09:46 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Often, the add-on penalties for "armed criminal action" are used as a bargaining chip by prosecutors.
"Cop to the robbery, and we'll drop the ACA charge."

A conviction is obtained, the robber gets less time, everybody happy. But little incentive to avoid being armed.

Armed criminal types tend to be by category, in my experience. We essentially never find folks indulging in petty crime like bicycle theft or thefts from offices or shoplifters going about armed.
However, people who are involved in the drug trade, gang members, robbery suspects, are very frequently armed.
These people live in a violent world, and are not only concerned with intimidating potential victims but being attacked by rival gang members or having "deals" go south or whatever.
It's part of the criminal culture and has been so for a very long time.
I know that of the 7 or 8 drug dealers we charged in the grand jury I was on, none of them also had weapons charges, and this would have been outside of any deal by the prosecutor because the prosecutor would want as many charges as possible to threaten them with and by not bringing weapons charges those would be removed by the prosecutor before a deal. So it makes no sense.

So maybe the dealers who carry guns cut a deal before it gets to the grand jury but it does seem to not add up for around where I am.
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Old 19th July 2017, 10:24 AM   #181
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Old 19th July 2017, 11:34 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Ok, it's because you can't think of any.
Not my burden. I did not claim that US criminals are a special sort of criminals. AJM would have to explain what makes them different such that they bring guns.
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Old 20th July 2017, 07:03 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Thus, the need for stricter gun control.
I'd like some criminal control before the state starts creating the new class of criminals, thanks.

Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
So you agree that the extra penalties associated with a criminal act that includes the showing/use of a gun have no deterrent effect? <--Genuine question, not meant to be hostile.
Answered pretty effectively by Bikewer - The laws are effective *when* they're enforced.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Are criminals in the USA a species completely different from criminals in Europe or Australia? Brains wired differently? No soul? Went to schools that teach guns are good?

Oh, the latter seems to make sense.
See below.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
ETA: I cannot trust your judgement anyway after this example of blind, biased, obvious stupidity, which is so out of character for you:
Weird. Not sure why you'd lash out like that. What's your problem? How do you apply all those negative attributes to that post?

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Not my burden. I did not claim that US criminals are a special sort of criminals.
Neither did I.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
AJM would have to explain what makes them different such that they bring guns.
It's really quite simple Oystein: Armed criminals in the US don't have much to fear from law enforcement, the justice system or armed citizens. Their biggest worry is armed rivals. If caught with a concealed handgun, unless a serious felony has been committed, an armed criminal will not spend much time in jail. His gun will be confiscated, be arraigned, given a court date and will either post bail or if little or no criminal record, be released on his own recognizance. The cycle usually repeats until the criminal ceases activity or is arrested for something more serious, like homicide. Until that happens, criminals are in and out of jail through a revolving door.


Let's try an exercise. I'll list three actual gun crimes. You tell me how these crimes would have been dealt with if committed in Germany. Explain the police response and the legal response. How much time would they spend in prison? (anyone from other countries / states, please feel free to play along.*)

1. Man opens fire with a concealed firearm on a busy downtown Oakland street. He missed his intended victim but struck an innocent bystander. She lived. Subject is arrested.

2. Several young men, many of whom aren't allowed to legally possess handguns, open fire on another gang of young men, who return fire in a busy San Francisco shopping district. Two bystanders are wounded, one bystander is killed. Witnesses come forward and five men are arrested.

3. At a San Francisco shopping mall, in a dispute over roughly $200, a man kills two women then opens fire on responding police. No LEOS are hit. Surrenders when he runs out of ammo.

Those are just little snippets of life in the bay area, but don't take it from me - Here's a good example of the idiocy you get around these parts. This is not an anomaly - this is how things are around here.

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I AGREE


After seeing that, some might understand why some cops are nervous these days..

*Yes, I know. These incidents a rarity in [country / state] because super-duper gun control. Humor me and pretend it happened despite that, m'kay?
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