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Old 19th November 2020, 07:15 PM   #41
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My position is that a real hero would do the time.
Maybe he will. But I would be totally okay with him not. And in general I am very supportive of the idea of restricting access to information for reasons of national security. But this was something that we needed to know.
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Old 19th November 2020, 09:57 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My position is that a real hero would do the time.
A real hero would be willing to do the time.

It would not diminish his heroism in any way if he did not have to do the time.
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Old 20th November 2020, 01:01 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
I feel sick.
I will never wear my service medals again as I am in the process of parcelling them up and sending them back to the Australian department of Veterans affairs.

I have no words. The stories I have heard so far are appalling and apparently this is just the tip of the iceberg.
I feel your hurt. I didn't serve (my birth date wasn't drawn) but my grandfather did in WWI. I have great respect for our armed services.

How you feel is understandable, but I don't think you should return your medals. I know how poorly Vietnam vets were treated when they got home, but with each passing year I believe that younger Australians have come to appreciate your services. Keep the medals so you can pass them on.
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Old 20th November 2020, 07:26 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My position is that a real hero would do the time.
A real hero would indeed be willing to do the time. Would a decent nation allow that to happen?
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Old 20th November 2020, 07:31 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
I feel sick.
I will never wear my service medals again as I am in the process of parcelling them up and sending them back to the Australian department of Veterans affairs.

I have no words. The stories I have heard so far are appalling and apparently this is just the tip of the iceberg.
You have brought out a memory that resonates with me. I once found out that my grandfather, a WW2 Navy veteran in the Atlantic theatre, turned in his service medals when he found out about the My Lai massacre. Even though we didn't usually see eye to eye politically, he was a deeply principled man that I revere and admire. I've tried to incorporate that kind of moral fortitude in my own life, inspired by his examples.

If you have or ever have children, I hope you have a similar influence on them.
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Old 21st November 2020, 02:24 AM   #46
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Well I did it today....with a cover letter Addressed to the Prime Minister I sent back my medals. They are nothing special, no Valor decorations and I cannot send back the medal from The South Vietnamese Government because I never accepted it in the first place. I rarely wore them as I am not a great fan of commemoration and ceremony,

I wonder if I will get a reply. From what I hear the revelations are going to be widespread and revolting. Hang on.......

As an aside during my service in Vietnam a couple of times when we were doing long Patrols where we would not have been able to manage prisoners we were told by our commander that we would be terminating the patrol and helo back to base with any prisoners so believe me the taking of prisoners would have been a popular outcome but it never happened. A few times when we took prisoners closer to Base we handed them over to ARVN troops. I heard rumours they sometimes shot them out of hand but frankly we really didn’t give a Damn as ARVN troops captured by NVA regulars were likely to be spared but VC were notorious for not taking prisoners. But then again...ARVN executed anyone even suspected of being VC......

It was a real circus.
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Last edited by The Fool; 21st November 2020 at 02:26 AM.
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Old 21st November 2020, 03:12 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Well I did it today....with a cover letter Addressed to the Prime Minister I sent back my medals. They are nothing special, no Valor decorations and I cannot send back the medal from The South Vietnamese Government because I never accepted it in the first place. I rarely wore them as I am not a great fan of commemoration and ceremony,

I wonder if I will get a reply. From what I hear the revelations are going to be widespread and revolting. Hang on.......

As an aside during my service in Vietnam a couple of times when we were doing long Patrols where we would not have been able to manage prisoners we were told by our commander that we would be terminating the patrol and helo back to base with any prisoners so believe me the taking of prisoners would have been a popular outcome but it never happened. A few times when we took prisoners closer to Base we handed them over to ARVN troops. I heard rumours they sometimes shot them out of hand but frankly we really didn’t give a Damn as ARVN troops captured by NVA regulars were likely to be spared but VC were notorious for not taking prisoners. But then again...ARVN executed anyone even suspected of being VC......

It was a real circus.
I can barely imagine what you went through. I don’t think anyone could came back from Vietnam without being deeply effected.

I’m sorry you felt you had to send back your medals.
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Old 21st November 2020, 03:34 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I can barely imagine what you went through. I don’t think anyone could came back from Vietnam without being deeply effected.

I’m sorry you felt you had to send back your medals.
I had it fairly easy...missed all the big engagement and spent most of my time as a spare prick at HQ running errands and digging holes for officers.
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Old 21st November 2020, 12:27 PM   #49
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In declaring there wouldn’t be a whitewash I was underestimating the bastardry of Morrison.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/f...21-p56gol.html

Quote:
Prime Minister Scott Morrison says he is distressed and disturbed by the damning report into war crimes allegedly committed by Australia's special forces but warned against a "media trial" ahead of the justice system dealing with the findings.
The only reason the Brereton Inquiry happened at all is due to the Age/Herald investigations.

Even worse.

Quote:
the Prime Minister said the government was not currently considering compensation for those in Afghanistan
.

What the ****? This was a specific recommendation of the report. I can see Morrison thinking “if we pay compensation, we’re admitting guilt, and we can’t do that”.

The disgust I currently have for Morrison is already off the scale, but it has nevertheless increased. Worst PM ever.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 03:43 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I was underestimating the bastardry of Morrison.
I find that hard to believe.

Seriously though, it is a bit premature for Scumo to get involved. This is a legal matter and any interference by Scumo could prejudice future trials.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 10:40 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This is a legal matter and any interference by Scumo could prejudice future trials.
Had you considered that might be exactly what his game is?
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Old 22nd November 2020, 11:09 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Had you considered that might be exactly what his game is?
Correct. It looks like he’s also goading the press into making further revelations.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 10:28 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Had you considered that might be exactly what his game is?
I don't think that Scumo has a game beyond his flapping gums. He is just trying to sound like a statesman.
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Old Yesterday, 11:52 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It happened for Abu Ghraib and it happened for some of the BLM circumstances. I am hoping it doesn't happen here too.
BLM? I'm assuming neither "Black Lives Matter" nor "Bureau of Land Management"...
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Old Yesterday, 11:57 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
It looks to me as though the rinsing of this has already begun.

Australian special forces were allegedly involved in the murder of 39 Afghan civilians...

becomes:

The report has recommended that 36 matters be referred to the Australian Federal Police for criminal investigation, relating to 23 incidents and involving 19 individuals.

Halved during the course of the report
I must be reading this differently than you. It looked to me as if only 3 of the alleged murders were dropped. I read the second bit as:

19 military personnel killed 26 Afghan civilians, in 23 separate incidents.

It's not very explicit though, so I'm not sure.
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Old Yesterday, 12:47 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
A real hero would indeed be willing to do the time. Would a decent nation allow that to happen?
Would a decent nation have been doing the cover up in the first place that necessitated his actions?
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Old Yesterday, 04:51 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
BLM? I'm assuming neither "Black Lives Matter" nor "Bureau of Land Management"...
I think they do mean "Black Lives Matter", with "BLM Incident" referring to instances of apparent police misconduct.
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Old Yesterday, 05:39 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I think they do mean "Black Lives Matter", with "BLM Incident" referring to instances of apparent police misconduct.
Yes. Both the abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib and the murder of unarmed civilians by law enforcement officers have been blamed on "a few bad apples". I haven't seen that phrase used in this case, though it has been pointed out that the behaviour appears to have been limited to certain individuals rather than being widesdpread. However, people in the command structure have suggested major changes. Some people are calling for the entire SAS regiment to be disbanded.

Australia's entire SAS regiment must be disbanded after Brereton report, expert says

Quote:
Failure to take strong steps could drive terror-recruiting and undermine future Australian counter-insurgency efforts


An international security specialist has argued the entire Special Air Service regiment must be disbanded after the Brereton report, saying its continued existence will drive terror-recruiting campaigns and undermine future Australian counter-insurgency efforts.

Dr Allan Orr, an expert in counter-insurgency who served as a consultant to the Coalition Counter-Insurgency Academy in Iraq during the war, says the failure to take strong steps in response to the Brereton inquiry would also risk placing Australian soldiers in heightened danger during future operations in Muslim nations, and undermine Australia’s standing at international bodies such as the United Nations.

Counter-insurgency campaigns depend heavily on establishing legitimacy and winning over local populations.

But Orr says the continued existence of the SAS – given the public allegations of dozens of unlawful killings of Afghan civilians – would make that objective extremely difficult...



...But Orr argues disbanding 2 squadron is not only “completely disingenuous” but sends the wrong message.

“Disbanding a squadron also places blame on the enlisted ranks firmly,” he said. “Disbanding the entire regiment would be the officer corp taking responsibility also, but of course we see now rampantly that wasn’t ever an option.”

He said the failure to disband also sends a wider message to the international community.
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