ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 23rd November 2020, 03:57 PM   #41
Matthew Ellard
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,355
Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
Jews as Marxists -
Pssstt Saggy.......Stalin trained at an Orthodox Christian Seminary in Tiflis.

You keep pretending you forgot that.
Matthew Ellard is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2020, 03:58 PM   #42
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,666
Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
And he was right on all counts.
LOL.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2020, 04:46 PM   #43
CaptainHowdy
Graduate Poster
 
CaptainHowdy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,566
Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Yes, neo-nazies do like falsifying the history of WW2 and trying to absolve one of the largest mass murderers and monsters of the history of mankind.

But I'm sorry, Hitler was a warmonger who willingly and for his own evil gains started WW2 .
Saying that Nazi Germany is solely responsible for starting World War 2 isn't accurate. The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany conspired together to conquer Poland and take back the parts of Poland that had been taken away from Germany and Russia after World War 1 to recreate the Polish nation. On Sept. 1, 1939, Germany invaded Poland from the West. A few weeks later, the Soviet Union invaded from the East. Poland surrendered and each power annexed the territory that had been previously agreed upon.

Great Britain and France had pledged to support Poland if her sovereignty was attacked. So after Germany invaded Poland (but before the Soviet Union did), they declared war on Germany, turning a regional conflict into a world war.

The Soviet Union's role as an aggressor was quietly forgotten after the Soviet Union was pushed into an alliance with Great Britain and the United States by Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941.

The funny thing is that Great Britain and France agreed to support the Polish nation if it was threatened by an external foe. That was the stated reason for the declaration of war on Germany. But neither country declared war on the Soviet Union when that country did exactly what Nazi Germany had done. And after the war, the Soviet Union controlled internal Polish politics to the extent that the country never really gained sovereignty until 1989 anyway.

So, did Nazi Germany start World War 2? Well, it's complicated.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2020, 05:09 PM   #44
Matthew Ellard
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,355
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
On Sept. 1, 1939, Germany invaded Poland from the West. A few weeks later, the Soviet Union invaded from the East. .
Tell us about the Soviet, British and French alliance negotiations that predate that. Did not Poland refuse to have Soviet troops in Eastern Poland to stop Germany invading?

You claim Russia's invasion of Poland also triggered the Anglo-Polish Agreement. However....
"Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax responded that the obligation of British Government towards Poland arising out of the Anglo-Polish Agreement was restricted to Germany, according to the first clause of the secret protocol"
Matthew Ellard is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2020, 05:46 PM   #45
Hans
Philosopher
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,347
Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Tell us about the Soviet, British and French alliance negotiations that predate that. Did not Poland refuse to have Soviet troops in Eastern Poland to stop Germany invading?

You claim Russia's invasion of Poland also triggered the Anglo-Polish Agreement. However....
"Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax responded that the obligation of British Government towards Poland arising out of the Anglo-Polish Agreement was restricted to Germany, according to the first clause of the secret protocol"
Hitler had already primed the pump as it were by annexing the Sudetenland in October 1938 and then the rump of Czechoslovakia (except Slovak Republic) that begame a vassal of Germany - so his aggressive stance - as he had stated in MK had been recognized.

This was after earlier annexing Austria.

This was all agreed in with at the: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hossbach_Memorandum
Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2020, 05:46 PM   #46
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 30,075
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Saying that Nazi Germany is solely responsible for starting World War 2 isn't accurate. The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany conspired together to conquer Poland and take back the parts of Poland that had been taken away from Germany and Russia after World War 1 to recreate the Polish nation. On Sept. 1, 1939, Germany invaded Poland from the West. A few weeks later, the Soviet Union invaded from the East. Poland surrendered and each power annexed the territory that had been previously agreed upon.

Great Britain and France had pledged to support Poland if her sovereignty was attacked. So after Germany invaded Poland (but before the Soviet Union did), they declared war on Germany, turning a regional conflict into a world war.

The Soviet Union's role as an aggressor was quietly forgotten after the Soviet Union was pushed into an alliance with Great Britain and the United States by Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941.

The funny thing is that Great Britain and France agreed to support the Polish nation if it was threatened by an external foe. That was the stated reason for the declaration of war on Germany. But neither country declared war on the Soviet Union when that country did exactly what Nazi Germany had done. And after the war, the Soviet Union controlled internal Polish politics to the extent that the country never really gained sovereignty until 1989 anyway.

So, did Nazi Germany start World War 2? Well, it's complicated.
Well, the blindfold has been lifted from my eyes, it was France and Britain to blame all along!
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2020, 05:53 PM   #47
Hans
Philosopher
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,347
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Well, the blindfold has been lifted from my eyes, it was France and Britain to blame all along!
Yep they started WWII by beating Germany in WWI - all their fault.

They were mean to Germany!!!
Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2020, 05:58 PM   #48
Saggy
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,799
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
So, did Nazi Germany start World War 2? Well, it's complicated.
What's this ... ????? .... intelligent life discovered on SI ???????

It's an incredible story for sure, and well told I believe, in Buchanan's book, for a 1-hour synopsys see ...
https://www.bitchute.com/video/ALp2GkpcuzZi/

But really, the book is must reading.

Of course Buchanan's view is limited, here is an indication of what was really going on in Britain, and that we know next to nothing about ....truly a remarkable book, 'Left Wings Over Europe, or How to Make a War About Nothing': written British man of letters Wyndham Lewis in 1936 !!!

Quote:
As far as Great Britain is concerned, there is, in 1936, not a shadow of a reason for a war with anybody. It is because that there is no concrete reason that abstract reasons have had to be thought up and trotted out.
...
Nationalism may be superseded by the issue between different forms of political structure, between parliamentarism, fascism, and Bolshevism. .... Parliamentarism and Bolshevism seem to feel a remarkable affinity for one another, if for no other reason than that they are both consumed with an equal hatred of fascism.
...
No British statesman has ever desired a war with Germany. But they have apparently come to regard themselves as committed to a policy which is violently determined to rid Europe of Hitler. And they are well aware that that cannot be effected without the risk of another world-war. It is not so much ‘fascist dictatorship’ that excites them — for after all they left Mussolini in complete peace for a decade. Neither does Dictatorship , in itself, excite them so much as all that — even accompanied by a permanent Reign of Terror and the massacre of millions of people. For Soviet Russia has been left undisturbed. No, it can only be something about the internal regime of Adolf Hitler that excites in them this implacable mood.
...
The Franco-Soviet pact has been ratified and it is highly probable that a Rumano-Soviet pact, on the lines of the military pact between the Soviet and Czechoslovakia, will be signed in the near future. The Austrian Government (which represents a fantastically small fraction of the people of Austria) seems to be moving towards an entente with the Little Entente. So the game of ‘encirclement’ goes on: and all these arrangements — carried on in every case over the heads and usually in contradiction to the wishes of the people — are made possible, and constantly stimulated by British and French gold. The remarks which I have quoted from the Morning Post mean, in plain language, that Great Britain is about to arm the Soviet against Germany. (Marshal Tukachevski stopped behind in England after the funeral of King George to go round the British armament factories to pick his tanks and guns.) There have constantly been rumours of a fifty million pounds British loan to France. That, too, in plain language, is Great Britain arming France against ‘the Hun’
...
There is one country where the Englishman is certain of a warm welcome: there is one country whose government never ceases to proffer friendship, and to be accommodating and polite, and that is Germany. Year in and year out, like a love-sick supplicant, Herr Hitler pays his court to the haughty Britannia. Every insult that can be invented even by the resourceful Mr. Churchill is tamely swallowed, every rebuff of Mr. Baldwin’s, every sneer of Mr. Eden, is meekly accepted, by this pertinacious suitor!
__________________
"The more I argued with them, the better I came to know their dialectic. First they counted on the stupidity of their adversary, and then, when there was no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid."
Saggy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2020, 06:36 PM   #49
Matthew Ellard
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,355
Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
It's an incredible story for sure, and well told I believe, in (Pat) Buchanan's book, for a 1-hour synopsys (sic) see ..
"Pat Buchanan insists controversial book not pro-Hitler"
https://edition.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/.../buchanan.GOP/

.....or maybe some quotes from Pat Buchanan

“If you want to know ethnicity and power in the United States Senate, 13 members of the Senate are Jewish folks who are from 2 percent of the population. That is where real power is at….” - Pat Buchanan

“If [Elena] Kagan is confirmed, Jews, who represent less than 2 percent of the U.S. population, will have 33 percent of the Supreme Court seats. Is this Democrats’ idea of diversity?” - Pat Buchanan

"The problem is: Diesel engines do not emit enough carbon monoxide to kill anybody." - Pat Buchanan (as a holocaust denier)

"Though Hitler was indeed racist and anti-Semitic to the core, a man who without compunction could commit murder and genocide, he was also an individual of great courage, a soldier’s soldier in the Great War, a leader steeped in the history of Europe, who possessed oratorical powers that could awe even those who despised him." - Pat Buchanan (as pro Hitler)

"In the late 1940’s and 1950’s…race was never a preoccupation with us, we rarely thought about it….There were no politics to polarize us then, to magnify every slight. The ‘Negroes’ of Washington had their public schools, restaurants, bars, movie houses, playgrounds and churches; and we had ours. - Pat Buchanan (as a racist)

“Mexicans not only come from another culture, but millions are of another race. History and experience teach us that different races are far more difficult to assimilate. The sixty million Americans who claim German ancestry are fully assimilated, while millions from Africa and Asia are still not full participants in American society.” - Pat Buchanan (as a racist)
Matthew Ellard is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2020, 07:35 PM   #50
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,681
Originally Posted by Saggy View Post

Of course Buchanan's view is limited, here is an indication of what was really going on in Britain, and that we know next to nothing about ....truly a remarkable book, 'Left Wings Over Europe, or How to Make a War About Nothing': written British man of letters Wyndham Lewis in 1936 !!!
Now, what happened between 1936 and 1 September 1939? Which European nation consistently demanded bits of its neighbours and engineered opportunities to grab them? For the historically illiterate apologists - it's located in Central Europe, used to be larger, has a ridiculous law concerning the brewing of beer, and had done to them what they did to others earlier and didn't like it.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2020, 08:52 PM   #51
Hans
Philosopher
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,347
Saggy seems to be running his own narrative and won't answer questions - this is just his personal blog to promote, 'Hitler was nice guy whom the English and Jews tormented in attacking everyone and it wasn't really his fault'.

One fact Saggy would agree with is that Hitler by his decisions killed:

5,300,000 German service men not to count the 500,000 thousand or so German civilians killed in the war and an addditional 200,000 disabled Germans killed by Action T4, and perhaps 300,000 or more sent to die for political reasons in their many jails. So that makes 6,300,000 Germans killed because Hitler wanted to take land in East.
Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2020, 09:31 PM   #52
marting
Graduate Poster
 
marting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,916
Worth mentioning is that while the UK and France declared War on Germany in response to their invasion of Poland the USA stood back. There was considerable resistance in the USA to involvement in another European war after their experience 20 years earlier.

To the degree that even after Japan bombed Pearl harbor bringing the USA to war with Japan, the USA did not enter the European war until after Hitler declared war in support of its Axis ally. It was not bound to do so by treaty. The USA quickly realigned its forces towards Europe. Good thing too otherwise those of us in the USA might be speaking German.

i recommend Richard J. Evan's trilogy which includes how Hitler came to power. The political dynamics within Germany in the 20's and 30's is both fascinating and disturbing.
__________________
Flying's easy. Walking on water, now that's cool.
marting is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2020, 10:09 PM   #53
CaptainHowdy
Graduate Poster
 
CaptainHowdy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,566
Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Tell us about the Soviet, British and French alliance negotiations that predate that. Did not Poland refuse to have Soviet troops in Eastern Poland to stop Germany invading?
There were discussions between the Soviets, Poles, French and British. But it was the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact with it's secret protocol to conquer and divide Poland that gave Hitler the assurance he need to invade Poland without Soviet interference (because they were in on the deal)

Quote:
You claim Russia's invasion of Poland also triggered the Anglo-Polish Agreement. However....
"Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax responded that the obligation of British Government towards Poland arising out of the Anglo-Polish Agreement was restricted to Germany, according to the first clause of the secret protocol"
I didnt say that Russia's invasion of Poland triggered any Anglo-Polish Agreement. I was not aware of any secret protocol that stipulated that France and Britain would fight to preserve Polish sovereignty but only if it was Germany that threatened that sovereignty. I was under the impression that Britain and France were taking a pro-Polish moral high roadk when they were actually anti-German. That does explain why neither country did anything to stop the Soviets when they dismembered and annexed Polish territory in 1939, why they didn't demand the restoration of Polish sovereignty in 1945 and why they only meekly protested the imprisonment of the London-based Polish government in exile or turned a blind eye to what happened at Katyn.

It's more complicated than I realized.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2020, 10:16 PM   #54
CaptainHowdy
Graduate Poster
 
CaptainHowdy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,566
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Well, the blindfold has been lifted from my eyes, it was France and Britain to blame all along!
It's not quite that simple. World War 2 is an event that people really want to reduce to a black/white, good/evil, right/wrong dichotomy. But like all historical events, there are subtleties and nuances involved.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2020, 11:40 PM   #55
CaptainHowdy
Graduate Poster
 
CaptainHowdy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,566
Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
"Pat Buchanan insists controversial book not pro-Hitler"
https://edition.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/.../buchanan.GOP/

.....or maybe some quotes from Pat Buchanan

“If you want to know ethnicity and power in the United States Senate, 13 members of the Senate are Jewish folks who are from 2 percent of the population. That is where real power is at….” - Pat Buchanan
That would mean that 13% of the US senators are Jewish. That's more than 2% but it's not a gross over representation. This would only be a problem for people playing the equity and inclusion racial identity political game. If there's a problem with not enough Senators being African-American then, yes, obviously there are too many Jews. Otherwise, so what?

Quote:
“If [Elena] Kagan is confirmed, Jews, who represent less than 2 percent of the U.S. population, will have 33 percent of the Supreme Court seats. Is this Democrats’ idea of diversity?” - Pat Buchanan
Again, not a problem unless the under representation of certain groups is a problem.

Quote:
"The problem is: Diesel engines do not emit enough carbon monoxide to kill anybody." - Pat Buchanan (as a holocaust denier)
You don't need carbon monoxide to kill people. Not enough oxygen will do the trick. But that's a statement about chemistry/biology, not history.

Quote:
"Though Hitler was indeed racist and anti-Semitic to the core, a man who without compunction could commit murder and genocide, he was also an individual of great courage, a soldier’s soldier in the Great War, a leader steeped in the history of Europe, who possessed oratorical powers that could awe even those who despised him." - Pat Buchanan (as pro Hitler)
Hitler did show courage under fire and he was very good at public speaking. Charles Manson had a remarkable ability to persuade people to accept his ideas. Osama bin Laden was an outisde-the-box marketing genius who was able to create awareness of his product more quickly and more extensively than any advertising campaign Don Draper could have developed.

People who do very bad things are often very intelligent, very likeable, very charming people. If they don't have any redeeming qualities they are probably not going to get to a position where they can do very bad things.

Quote:
"In the late 1940’s and 1950’s…race was never a preoccupation with us, we rarely thought about it….There were no politics to polarize us then, to magnify every slight. The ‘Negroes’ of Washington had their public schools, restaurants, bars, movie houses, playgrounds and churches; and we had ours. - Pat Buchanan (as a racist)
Racial politics and an obsession with racial identity does create more problems than it solves.

Quote:
“Mexicans not only come from another culture, but millions are of another race. History and experience teach us that different races are far more difficult to assimilate. The sixty million Americans who claim German ancestry are fully assimilated, while millions from Africa and Asia are still not full participants in American society.” - Pat Buchanan (as a racist)
People from a similar background do get along with each other much more easily than people who are dissimilar. Diversity and multiculturalism are not strengths. If they were, Israel and China would be the weakest nations in the world.

But none of this refutes Pat Buchanan's book. You need to engage with the ideas in the book to do that.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2020, 11:51 PM   #56
Matthew Ellard
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,355
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
But it was the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact with it's secret protocol to conquer and divide Poland that gave Hitler the assurance he need to invade Poland without Soviet interference (because they were in on the deal)
No. The French and British asked Poland to allow the Russians to enter Poland first. Poland refused. Then Germany approached Russia.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I was not aware of any secret protocol that stipulated that France and Britain would fight to preserve Polish sovereignty but only if it was Germany that threatened that sovereignty.
Fair enough. that's why I mentioned Halifax's communications.

I have informed Saggy, the same thing over and over again, for over a decade, on the Skeptic Society's anti holocaust denial subforum. He simply ignores facts and repeats "1970s" Holocaust denial propaganda.
Matthew Ellard is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2020, 11:58 PM   #57
Matthew Ellard
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,355
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
But none of this refutes Pat Buchanan's book. You need to engage with the ideas in the book to do that.
Pat Buchanan is a racist, antisemitic, Hitler supporter. You are not arguing with me but actual quotes from Pat Buchanan, Saggy's hero.

The reason Treblinka II used a diesel engine was to pressure the oxygen out of the gas chambers and suffocate the Jews they were executing.

Why do you think Pat Buchanan is saying diesel engines don't kill?
Matthew Ellard is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 12:00 AM   #58
Matthew Ellard
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,355
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
It's not quite that simple. World War 2 is an event that people really want to reduce to a black/white, good/evil, right/wrong dichotomy. But like all historical events, there are subtleties and nuances involved.
Do historians, both post-war Axis and post war Allied, claim Germany didn't start the war?
Matthew Ellard is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 01:08 AM   #59
EvilBiker
Spectral Challenger
 
EvilBiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Berlin
Posts: 1,353
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Can't Putsch This.




Sorry, I'll get me coat.
Der Hammer!
__________________
Flat Earth Theory:
The unfortunate result of ordering pizza to satisfy munchies after smoking way too much weed to bring you down from that hectic acid trip.
EvilBiker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 05:04 AM   #60
Carrot Flower King
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Northumberland, UK
Posts: 334
Saggy, having quoted Wyndham Lewis from 1936, might like to note that by 1937 he'd changed his mind about Hitler and the Nazis, was critical of their anti-semitism and over the next few years moved to condemning fascism more than he did communism...
Carrot Flower King is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 05:07 AM   #61
Carrot Flower King
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Northumberland, UK
Posts: 334
Oh, maybe Saggy could also explain why, in the pre-WW II 1930s, that peace-loving Hitler and his hippy-dippy Nazi chums had a bunch of folk in Spain, fighting on the side of the fascist Franco and practising a number of the tactics later used against Poland, France, Belgium and the like? Condor Legion mean anything to you?
Carrot Flower King is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 05:29 AM   #62
malbui
Beauf
 
malbui's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,637
Every time a Nazi sympathiser pops up on this forum and elsewhere I hope for an explanation why Hitler and his peace-loving buddies found it necessary to occupy my country for so long and torture, deport and murder so many of its citizens.
__________________
"But Master! Does not the fire need water too? Does not the mountain need the storm? Does not your scrotum need kicking?"
malbui is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 06:16 AM   #63
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 31,655
Originally Posted by malbui View Post
Every time a Nazi sympathiser pops up on this forum and elsewhere I hope for an explanation why Hitler and his peace-loving buddies found it necessary to occupy my country for so long and torture, deport and murder so many of its citizens.
It's especially telling that you haven't particularly narrowed down which country that is.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 06:33 AM   #64
malbui
Beauf
 
malbui's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,637
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
It's especially telling that you haven't particularly narrowed down which country that is.
We are well aware that we were far from having a monopoly on suffering at that time.
__________________
"But Master! Does not the fire need water too? Does not the mountain need the storm? Does not your scrotum need kicking?"
malbui is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 06:49 AM   #65
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 31,655
Originally Posted by malbui View Post
We are well aware that we were far from having a monopoly on suffering at that time.
Yeah, funny how so many countries turn out to be the one that started it.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 07:20 AM   #66
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,666
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Saying that Nazi Germany is solely responsible for starting World War 2 isn't accurate.
Indeed, though it's a decent first approximation.

And it looks like laser-focused precision compared to clowns trying to imply the Jews were responsible for it.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 08:06 AM   #67
Saggy
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,799
Let's see what Hitler had to say in response to a telegram from Roosevelt warning him not to attach a list of countries, fortunately we have video of part of his speech to the Reichstag .... "Hitler ridiculed the president with withering sarcasm"
https://www.bitchute.com/video/FRTJ5IzO8fR5/


Roosevelt's telegram: "Are you willing to give assurance that your armed forces will not attack or invade the territory of possessions of the following independent nations: Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, The Netherlands, Belgium, Great Britain and Ireland, ..., Russia, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, Iraq, The Arabias, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, and Iran."

Hitler replied to Roosevelt as part of a lengthy speech to the Reichtag on April 28, transcript at http://comicism.tripod.com/390428.html, that included the following:
Quote:
In reply to this it must be said in the first place that this fear of war has undoubtedly existed among mankind from time immemorial, and justifiably so.

For instance, after the Peace Treaty of Versailles, 14 wars were waged between 1919 and 1938 alone, in none of which Germany was concerned, but in which states of the "Western Hemisphere" in whose name President Roosevelt also speaks, were certainly concerned.

In addition there were in the same period 26 violent interventions and sanctions carried through by means of bloodshed and force. Germany played no part whatever in these either.

The United States alone has carried out military interventions in six cases since 1918. Since 1918 Soviet Russia has engaged in 10 wars and military actions involving force and bloodshed. Again, Germany was concerned in none of these, nor was she. responsible for any of these.

It would therefore be a mistake in my eyes to assume that the fear of war inspiring European and non-European nations can at this present time be directly traced back to actual wars at all."

.........

"If the cry of "Never another, Munich" is raised in the world today, this simply confirms the fact that the peaceful solution of the problem appeared to be the most awkward thing that ever happened in the eyes of those warmongers. They are sorry no blood was shed-not their 'blood, to be sure-for these agitators are, of course, never to be found where shots are being fired, but only where money is being made. No, it is the blood of many nameless soldiers!

Hitler publicized his offer to Poland in the same speech:
Quote:
I have had the following proposal submitted to the Polish Government:-
(1) Danzig returns as a Free State into the framework of the German Reich.
(2) Germany receives a route through the Corridor and a railway line at her own disposal possessing the same extraterritorial status for Germany as the Corridor itself has for Poland.
In return, Germany is prepared:-
(1) To recognize all Polish economic rights in Danzig.
(2) To ensure for Poland a free harbour in Danzig of any size desired which would have completely free access to the sea.
(3) To accept at the same time the present boundaries between Germany and Poland and to regard them as ultimate.
(4) To conclude a twenty-five-year non-aggression treaty with Poland, a treaty therefore which would extend far beyond the duration of my own life.
(5) To guarantee the independence of the Slovak State by Germany, Poland and Hungary jointly-which means in practice the renunciation of any unilateral German hegemony in this territory.

The Polish Government have rejected my offer and have only declared that they are prepared (1) to negotiate concerning the question of a substitute for the Commissioner of the League of Nations and (2) to consider facilities for the transit traffic through the Corridor."

Also
Quote:
"But I must also draw Mr. Roosevelt's attention to one or two mistakes in history. He mentions Ireland, for instance, and asks for a statement to the effect that Germany will not attack Ireland. Now, I have just read a speech delivered by Mr. de Valera, the Irish Taoiseach (Prime Minister), in which strangely enough, and contrary to Mr. Roosevelt's opinion, he does not charge Germany with oppressing Ireland, but reproaches England with subjecting Ireland to continuous aggression.

With all due respect to Mr. Roosevelt's insight into the needs and cares of other countries, it may nevertheless be assumed that the Irish Taoiseach would be more familiar with the dangers which threaten his country than would the President of the United States.

Similarly the fact has obviously escaped Mr. Roosevelt's notice that Palestine is at present occupied not by German troops but by the English; and that the country is undergoing restriction of its liberty by the most brutal resort to force, is being robbed of its independence and is suffering the cruelest maltreatment for the benefit of Jewish interlopers. The Arabs living in that country would therefore certainly not have complained to Mr. Roosevelt of German aggression, but they are voicing a con.......
__________________
"The more I argued with them, the better I came to know their dialectic. First they counted on the stupidity of their adversary, and then, when there was no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid."

Last edited by Saggy; Yesterday at 08:09 AM.
Saggy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 08:40 AM   #68
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,448
Originally Posted by malbui View Post
To be fair an old teacher of mine once did accidentally drive his tank over the border into a neighbouring country. It didn't really count as an invasion, though, as they only stopped long enough to buy cigarettes before turning around and sneaking back over the border.
That sounds like the infamous Urban Assault Vehicle incident.
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 08:59 AM   #69
Hans
Philosopher
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,347
Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
deleted
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CBeEA9qVAAAThzr.jpg
Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 11:57 AM   #70
Carrot Flower King
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Northumberland, UK
Posts: 334
Aaaaah, so Saggy doesn't want to talk about Spain and the Condor Legion and the other peace-loving hippy Nazis who didn't really do any fighting on the side of some fellow fascists...

Just on holiday on the Costa Brava and had a drunken squabble with some locals about the noises their Ju-87s made?

Guernica was just some town planning which went wrong?

Really, Saggy, as a Nazi apologist, Hitler fanboi, defender of anti-semites, distorter of recent European history and the rest of your obnoxious schtick, you really need to try harder, as you are laughably poor so far.
Carrot Flower King is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 02:15 PM   #71
Hans
Philosopher
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,347
Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Aaaaah, so Saggy doesn't want to talk about Spain and the Condor Legion and the other peace-loving hippy Nazis who didn't really do any fighting on the side of some fellow fascists...

Just on holiday on the Costa Brava and had a drunken squabble with some locals about the noises their Ju-87s made?

Guernica was just some town planning which went wrong?

Really, Saggy, as a Nazi apologist, Hitler fanboi, defender of anti-semites, distorter of recent European history and the rest of your obnoxious schtick, you really need to try harder, as you are laughably poor so far.
Par for the course. He's just pretending to care now, he is nearing his Anti-semitic retirement age and looking forward to retiring to his SS inspired group home and watching replays of the Nuremberg rallies and singing Horst Wessel and Vorwarts! Vowarts! in the evening.
Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 02:47 PM   #72
Lothian
should be banned
 
Lothian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside
Posts: 15,795
Great thread Saggy. The internet is full of WW sites that tell you exactly what happened. Tired, and boring. The idea to start a thread where you deliberately make up **** and post a load of bollocks is a refreshing change
Lothian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 07:17 PM   #73
The Common Potato
Critical Thinker
 
The Common Potato's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: The Scunthorpe Problem
Posts: 350
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Being a tad unfair aren’t you? I mean who hasn’t accidentally invaded a country or two? You’re out for a stroll with a few of your mates and “oops done it again”.
Wasn't William the Conqueror from somewhere near Brittany. Join the dots, people.

Last edited by The Common Potato; Yesterday at 07:23 PM.
The Common Potato is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 07:26 PM   #74
The Common Potato
Critical Thinker
 
The Common Potato's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: The Scunthorpe Problem
Posts: 350
Hitler does remind me a little of some conspiracy theorists. When you don't like the world as it is, make up an alternative that makes sense in your own mind.
The Common Potato is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 11:22 PM   #75
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 48,743
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Saying that Nazi Germany is solely responsible for starting World War 2 isn't accurate. .
Weel, you have to give Japan, Hitler's "Honorary Aryan" buddies, the credit for starting WW2 in the Far East.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:16 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.