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Old 23rd November 2020, 12:30 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Did this small wound occur the day before or did someone shoot him on the other side of the Triple Underpass?

I ask because the assassination is on film and JFK is only hit twice.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 02:57 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
This new post also offers rebuttals.


BTW you should know that Bruce Pitzer's former wife Joyce also said that he was vaguely aware of a "something" her husband had concerning the assassination.

Dennis David said he didn't come forward earlier because of his career and his (perhaps untrue) suspicion that Bruce Pitzer was murdered.
Taking the last point first, Pitzer committed suicide, as you acknowledge as a possibility. He wasn't murdered. That puts the lie to David's story.

Allan Eaglesham investigated the Pitzer case and covered it in in detail:
http://www.manuscriptservice.com/WBP-Resolution/

Dennis David's story of seeing an autopsy assassination film of the assassination taken by Pitzer is patently untrue. Pitzer wasn't at the autopsy, and no one who was at the autopsy claims any motion picture film was taken, only photos.

Dennis David decided sometime after the suicide of Pitzer to interject himself into the assassination story by making up a story involving a deceased co-worker who wasn't around to deny his claims, and he got his wish, David's now mentioned in plenty of conspiracy books.

But there's nothing there. And there never has been. It's all just a story David tells. Conveniently, David doesn't have this autopsy film or anything else that would confirm his story. And Pitzer's wife being "vaguely aware" of "something" doesn't confirm Dennis David's lies about seeing a non-existent autopsy film that Pitzer never took because Pitzer wasn't at the autopsy.

Pretty much all of this was covered with Robert Prey. Read the threads.

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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:26 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Taking the last point first, Pitzer committed suicide, as you acknowledge as a possibility. He wasn't murdered. That puts the lie to David's story.

Allan Eaglesham investigated the Pitzer case and covered it in in detail:
http://www.manuscriptservice.com/WBP-Resolution/



Dennis David's story of seeing an autopsy assassination film of the assassination taken by Pitzer is patently untrue. Pitzer wasn't at the autopsy, and no one who was at the autopsy claims any motion picture film was taken, only photos.

Dennis David decided sometime after the suicide of Pitzer to interject himself into the assassination story by making up a story involving a deceased co-worker who wasn't around to deny his claims, and he got his wish, David's now mentioned in plenty of conspiracy books.

But there's nothing there. And there never has been. It's all just a story David tells. Conveniently, David doesn't have this autopsy film or anything else that would confirm his story. And Pitzer's wife being "vaguely aware" of "something" doesn't confirm Dennis David's lies about seeing a non-existent autopsy film that Pitzer never took because Pitzer wasn't at the autopsy.

Pretty much all of this was covered with Robert Prey. Read the threads.

Hank
Yes, all of this is directly quoted in the post I linked.

Dennis David never said anything proven to be a lie. He only said that he initially believed Pitzer was left-handed because he dealt cards with his left hand while playing Bridge together. When informed by Joyce Pitzer that Bill was right-handed, Dennis accepted that as true and stated such.

As Humes pointed out to the ARRB, there was a CCTV system set up in the morgue, and he said that in hindsight he wished the autopsy had been filmed. There is no information on whether or not there could have been cameras installed into the walls where a witness would have have necessarily noticed. Eaglesham found one or two witnesses who claimed to remember that only the Walter Reed medical center had cameras capable of filming medical procedures, and that these were giant bulky television cameras which would have been difficult to transport across the street to Bethesda.

As early as the mid-50's, there were special color cameras designed to record medical procedures in a hospital setting, and those cameras looked like a plain square box on wheels, like a non-descript piece of medical equipment.

Jerrol Custer is one witness who claimed to have seen a man filming with a movie camera, but I understand that Jerrol was a clown.

Dennis David claimed to remember the pictures he saw were on 16 millimeter film. He could theoretically be wrong about the technical specs while also being right about Pitzer showing him pictures of the autopsy.

Again, Joyce Pitzer also claimed to be vaguely aware of something her husband had concerning the assassination.

Last edited by MicahJava; 23rd November 2020 at 04:29 PM.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 04:49 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Yes, all of this is directly quoted in the post I linked.
Then you should know better.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Dennis David never said anything proven to be a lie.
Sigh. You should know better, certainly by now that's the logical fallacy of shifting the burden of proof. Nobody has the obligation to disprove his claims. You want to accept his assertions, the burden is on you (and him) to prove them. You don't get around that burden by saying his claims haven't been disproven.

There's a golden teapot orbiting Jupiter right now. That claim has never been disproven either. Hopefully (hope springs eternal) you understand the problem with your "Dennis David never said anything proven to be a lie" assertion. It matters not whether it's been proven to be a lie. You need to prove it's true., otherwise it's just a scary story Dennis David tells around a campfire.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
He only said that he initially believed Pitzer was left-handed because he dealt cards with his left hand while playing Bridge together. When informed by Joyce Pitzer that Bill was right-handed, Dennis accepted that as true and stated such.
But his earliest statements, to David Lifton, don't mention anything about an autopsy film, or seeing such. He only introduced that story 25 years after the fact, to another conspiracy theorist.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
As Humes pointed out to the ARRB, there was a CCTV system set up in the morgue, and he said that in hindsight he wished the autopsy had been filmed.
It wasn't. End of story.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
There is no information on whether or not there could have been cameras installed into the walls where a witness would have have necessarily noticed.
This is all speculation by you. It matters not. Do not confuse it with evidence confirming David's story. It doesn't do that. David's story was that Pitzer was at the autopsy and filmed the assassination. That's the problem with trying to insert yourself into a major incident, like (in this case) the assassination of the President. You don't know what documentation exists that contradicts your claims. The people at the autopsy were documented, and Pitzer wasn't one of them. David's claims fail right there.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Eaglesham found one or two witnesses who claimed to remember that only the Walter Reed medical center had cameras capable of filming medical procedures, and that these were giant bulky television cameras which would have been difficult to transport across the street to Bethesda.
Bethesda is not Walter Reed. You've just argued against the autopsy being filmed.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
As early as the mid-50's, there were special color cameras designed to record medical procedures in a hospital setting, and those cameras looked like a plain square box on wheels, like a non-descript piece of medical equipment.
It doesn't matter what could have been done. It only matters what was done. There are witnesses who are quite specific that no film of the autopsy was made. The problem you have is Dennis David has been caught in an inescapable lie - and that destroys his credibility.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Jerrol Custer is one witness who claimed to have seen a man filming with a movie camera, but I understand that Jerrol was a clown.
Since you neither quote Custer saying anything of the sort here, nor establish he was a clown, I'll table that for now.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Dennis David claimed to remember the pictures he saw were on 16 millimeter film. He could theoretically be wrong about the technical specs while also being right about Pitzer showing him pictures of the autopsy.
No, he said he saw *film* of the autopsy with Pitzer. Not photos. Not pictures. *Film*. You can't salvage his story by claiming he was a poor witness. You salvage his story by establishing he was a witness to what he claimed... Conveniently, there's no evidence he saw anything like he claimed he saw.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Again, Joyce Pitzer also claimed to be vaguely aware of something her husband had concerning the assassination.
And she made this claim how many decades later? Her "vague awareness of something" came how many years after Dennis David's story about the supposed autopsy film was first published?

You're assuming her vague awareness stemmed from something she learned from her husband prior to his suicide, rather than that vague awareness stemming from something Dennis David alleged in 1988.

These are issues you need to confront if you're going to convince anyone. You're posting on a skeptic site, remember. Show me the evidence.

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Old 23rd November 2020, 05:05 PM   #85
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The purpose of this post is not to present the best evidence, it's to catalogue literally all of the evidence, no matter the quality.

The word of Dennis David is technically evidence, even if it's not the best evidence in the world. And Joyce's non-specific statement also counts as some level of corroboration.

Dennis David first came public with his story about Pitzer in 1975, not 1988, and at that time he had the journalist not print his name. David Lifton only found Dennis David when he saw the article and contacted that journalist and convinced them it was ok to give away Dennis's personal information. Lifton only used Dennis David's real name in his 1980 book because Dennis said he could. Dennis claimed that his own wife was reluctant to let him talk to Lifton for fear of retaliation.

Lifton seems to have a personal bias against the Pitzer story. While Lifton claims that Dennis never told him about the Pitzer story, around 2007 Dennis claimed he did remember telling Lifton about it.

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Old 23rd November 2020, 05:26 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
The purpose of this post is not to present the best evidence, it's to catalogue literally all of the evidence, no matter the quality.
So you're not arguing for a conspiracy, even though you're presenting what you think is evidence of a conspiracy?


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
The word of Dennis David is technically evidence, even if it's not the best evidence in the world. And Joyce's non-specific statement also counts as some level of corroboration.
No, it's not evidence. It's a story, an assertion, an uncorroborated claim.

Is my assertion of a teapot orbiting Jupiter evidence of a teapot orbiting Jupiter? Would there be corrobation if another poster here makes the same assertion?


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Dennis David first came public with his story about Pitzer in 1975, not 1988, and at that time he had the journalist not print his name.
Still after Pitzer was dead and unable to confirm or deny the story, right? Why did he wait 12 years to come forward with the story? Pitzer wasn't dead yet, and could confirm or deny it while he was still alive, right? Yet conveniently, the only person who could confirm or deny it is dead by the time Dennis David comes forward with his story.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
David Lifton only found Dennis David when he saw the article and contacted that journalist and convinced them it was ok to give him Dennis's personal information. Lifton only used Dennis David's real name in his 1980 book because Dennis said he could. Dennis claimed that his own wife was reluctant to let him talk to Lifton for fear of retaliation.
And my first wife didn't want me to use my real name on these boards (or other ones) so when I first started posting at alt.assassination.jfk, I used an alias for the first ten years or so I posted there.

But more to the point, Lifton claims David said nothing about the supposed autopsy film when he interviewed him in 1980. Why not? Remember that Lifton is a conspiracy theorist. He's not on my side whatsoever. What does that tell you?


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Lifton seems to have a personal bias against the Pitzer story.
Maybe for the same reason I do, people have been known to insert themselves into famous (or infamous) incidents, solely for the notoriety. There's no contempory evidence confirming any of Dennis David's story. And as late as 1980, Dennis David wasn't mentioning this autopsy film to David Lifton at all.


Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
While Lifton claims that Dennis never told him about the Pitzer story, around 2007 Dennis claimed he did remember telling Lifton about it.
So the story starts and ends with Dennis David. That's not surprising to me that a Johnny-Come-Lately has no evidence. Only his assertions, which are contradicted by other evidence and confirmed by nothing and no one. Since it's Dennis David's very credibility that's in question here, I find it more than a little bizarre that you would think his counter-claim of a recollection (without any proof) has any credibility.

Curiously, there's no evidence this autopsy film ever existed (or the entire incident as told by Dennis David ever happened), just as Beverly Oliver's claim (first told in 1969) that she filmed the JFK assassination and her film was taken away by an FBI agent isn't verifiable either. It's another scary campfire story with it's own set of problems (for starters, the camera she said she used wasn't available for sale in 1963 and the FBI agent she named as taking the camera was stationed in New Orleans, not Dallas).

Stuff like documentary evidence trips these people up all the time.

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I have never ”refused” to provide evidence. I provide evidence if requested to do so in a specific and relevant manner.

Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 23rd November 2020, 06:31 PM   #87
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Now the story has evolved from a CT based on autopsy evidence he hasn't seen to a film of the autopsy that was never made.

At least Bigfoot has the Patterson film. Sure, it's a fake, but it's an actual film.

Now if you'll excuse me I need to get back in my space ship to head back to Jupiter to turn off the stove.
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Old Yesterday, 04:41 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
The purpose of this post is not to present the best evidence, it's to catalogue literally all of the evidence, no matter the quality.
I have heard that JFK was tickled to death by tiny communist goblins.
Please include this in your catalogue of evidence. If you're not bothered about the quality of the evidence, then this shouldn't be a problem.
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Old Yesterday, 05:38 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I have heard that JFK was tickled to death by tiny communist goblins...
Well, the story I heard was that JFK and Bobby wanted out and the assassinations were faked - they lived out their lives happily on a tropical island.

With Elvis and Bruce Lee.

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Old Yesterday, 05:48 AM   #90
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A Tiger got him.
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Old Yesterday, 07:01 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by SteveAitch View Post
Well, the story I heard was that JFK and Bobby wanted out and the assassinations were faked - they lived out their lives happily on a tropical island.

With Elvis and Bruce Lee.

Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
A Tiger got him.
MicahJava, I hope you're getting all this. Look at the new evidence that's coming out! Make sure you document everything, and then let us know how it all fits into your theory of what actually happened in Dallas.
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Old Yesterday, 11:25 AM   #92
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You guys are all wet - this is what happened to JFK and it's on video so it has to be true - NSFW:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Tip of the hat to the great researcher Joe R. Lansdale that made this video public.
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Old Yesterday, 11:42 AM   #93
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Meanwhile, in the grown-up world, another CT is debunked:

https://theconversation.com/jfk-cons...ination-148138

Quote:
A main conspiracy about Oswald’s undocumented time in Mexico City puts him in contact with dangerous Mexicans on the left side of the Cold War.

This story originated in March 1967, when the American consul in the Mexican coastal city of Tampico, Benjamin Ruyle, was buying drinks for local journalists.

One of them – Óscar Contreras Lartigue, a 28-year-old reporter for El Sol de Tampico – told Ruyle he’d met Oswald in 1963 when he was a law student at Mexico’s National Autonomous University.

Contreras said he’d been in a pro-Castro campus group and that Oswald had begged this group for help getting a Cuban visa. According to Contreras, Oswald spent two days with these National Autonomous University students, then met up with them again a few days later at the Cuban Embassy.
And I'll skip to the good part:

Quote:
In Contreras’ telling, he fled the National Autonomous University campus and moved to Tampico around 1964. Yet Contreras also allegedly told his “editor” about his encounter with Oswald after the 1963 Kennedy assassination.

College newspapers aren’t common in Mexico, and Contreras was a law student. So how could he have had an editor in 1963?

I thought his hometown paper, El Sol de Tampico, might hold the answer. Digging through its archives, I found that the newspaper ran a Sunday gossip column in the early 1960s called “Crisol,” or “melting pot.”

Óscar Contreras became the reporter for “Crisol” on June 6, 1963, and continued writing the gossip column in September and October that year.

While Lee Harvey Oswald was in Mexico City, Contreras was 300 miles away in Tampico. In flamboyant prose, faded back issues of the local paper show, he chronicled the sumptuous wedding receptions, quinceañeras and yacht excursions of Tampico’s high society
.

The article itself is great because it links to some of the new declassified documents.
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Old Yesterday, 04:07 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
The problem with the CIA is that its internal system for getting information to the right departments is slow. There are TV, radio, and print news operations in every country in the world. If you need to know what's going on in a certain country, or specific region within that country you simply subscribe to the closest newspaper.
Indeed, the stovepiping of intelligence is an ongoing systemic problem in the US government; hence, the failure to connect the dots on 9/11 and, I’d argue, the failure to convey to policymakers just how poor and dated the intelligence on Iraqi WMD really was (I lay a good deal of responsibility for the latter at George Tenet’s door).

Though I do wonder if the post-9/11 reforms like fusion centers, DNI, etc. have compounded the problem by pumping massive amounts of intelligence into an ever-expanding bureaucracy (which includes tons of private contractors with Top Secret security clearances - hardly unproblematic). Not to mention, the civil liberties issues that arise with extensive domestic surveillance...

In other words, I’m not exactly confident that adding more hay to the haystack of terrorist leads and threats will help solve these issues, especially given the trend of lone wolf actors being groomed or inspired by terrorist recruiters. One person slipping through the cracks can wreak an awful lot of havoc...
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Old Yesterday, 05:05 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
Indeed, the stovepiping of intelligence is an ongoing systemic problem in the US government; hence, the failure to connect the dots on 9/11 and, I’d argue, the failure to convey to policymakers just how poor and dated the intelligence on Iraqi WMD really was (I lay a good deal of responsibility for the latter at George Tenet’s door).

Though I do wonder if the post-9/11 reforms like fusion centers, DNI, etc. have compounded the problem by pumping massive amounts of intelligence into an ever-expanding bureaucracy (which includes tons of private contractors with Top Secret security clearances - hardly unproblematic). Not to mention, the civil liberties issues that arise with extensive domestic surveillance...

In other words, I’m not exactly confident that adding more hay to the haystack of terrorist leads and threats will help solve these issues, especially given the trend of lone wolf actors being groomed or inspired by terrorist recruiters. One person slipping through the cracks can wreak an awful lot of havoc...
It is a mixed bag.

The FBI and CIA and the rest are on the same page as far as terrorism goes, but there are still obvious breakdowns. Worse, the current DCI has been funneling intelligence to the DEA and FBI about drug operations, which is not part of the Patriot Act's purview.


As far as the JFK Assassination goes, the recent National Archives document release showed that the CIA's Mexico City Station cabled Langley about Lee Oswald's visit to the Cuban and Soviet Embassies, and advised them to contact the FBI to fill them in so they could investigate. That information was never passed along to the FBI. And then the FBI failed to mention Lee Oswald, a defector to the Soviet Union, was in Dallas to the Secret Service, who would have detailed men to monitor him.

In short had either the CIA told the FBI, and or the FBI told the Secret Service then JFK would probably be alive today.
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Old Yesterday, 07:10 PM   #96
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The teapot was between Earth and Mars and it was Lipton who did it. #fake brews
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Old Today, 02:23 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
It is a mixed bag.

The FBI and CIA and the rest are on the same page as far as terrorism goes, but there are still obvious breakdowns. Worse, the current DCI has been funneling intelligence to the DEA and FBI about drug operations, which is not part of the Patriot Act's purview.


As far as the JFK Assassination goes, the recent National Archives document release showed that the CIA's Mexico City Station cabled Langley about Lee Oswald's visit to the Cuban and Soviet Embassies, and advised them to contact the FBI to fill them in so they could investigate. That information was never passed along to the FBI. And then the FBI failed to mention Lee Oswald, a defector to the Soviet Union, was in Dallas to the Secret Service, who would have detailed men to monitor him.

In short had either the CIA told the FBI, and or the FBI told the Secret Service then JFK would probably be alive today.
The only thing I disagree with is your final six words. He would have celebrated his 103 birthday this past May if he was still alive today. That makes it highly improbable he would be alive today. Most people's natural life span isn't typically that long. I usually phrase it as there would have been no assassination attempt in Dallas.

Hank
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Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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