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Old 7th October 2019, 07:41 AM   #121
Thermal
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
We can use Thermal's logic. If they have video of the boy being pushed outside then they must have video of the kid in a fight with another student. Surely that video would be much more supportive of their case than the current video.

I think we don't see it because it doesn't exist. /skeptic
Skepticism fail. The school hasn't released any video to the public, because administration says not to comment publicly, a typical move. So we don't have much at all from the school's POV, and rely exclusively on the plaintiffs silver bullets. So continue with the same logic: why don't we see video showing the kid just standing around, then being grabbed and pushed around by the school officials? Why don't we see video of the boy trying to get in? There is a ton more damning video angles that plaintiffs would have reviewed, and presented to support their claims. Much, much more damning. So why do we only see the one angle which shows the kid walking out under his own power (although arguably under orders from red shirt or others)?
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Old 7th October 2019, 08:11 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Skepticism fail.
I know, that was my point.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The school hasn't released any video to the public, because administration says not to comment publicly, a typical move.
I hadn't seen that. CPS actually has commented publicly about the issue, just not about the litigation. Anyway, not important.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
So we don't have much at all from the school's POV, and rely exclusively on the plaintiffs silver bullets. So continue with the same logic: why don't we see video showing the kid just standing around, then being grabbed and pushed around by the school officials?
...because they don't have access to the footage, perhaps? Just a thought. The lawyers for the plaintiff can ask for it, but that doesn't mean the school hands over every single video from every single camera. In fact, they probably turned over as little as possible, which is standard. The biggest question is why haven't the kids that were assaulted by the boy filed any charges, or discussed it publicly? Why wouldn't they if that were the case?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Why don't we see video of the boy trying to get in?
Again, perhaps the attorneys for the plaintiff haven't received that data yet. It might be something they won't receive until discovery. Pretty standard stuff.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
There is a ton more damning video angles that plaintiffs would have reviewed, and presented to support their claims. Much, much more damning. So why do we only see the one angle which shows the kid walking out under his own power (although arguably under orders from red shirt or others)?
What the **** does "walking out under his own power" mean? No one is saying he was picked up and thrown outside. You, yourself, have said you can't really see if red shirt continues to push him or not as the angle blocks that view.

Anyway, there could be a lot of reasons.

You seem to be more than willing to give the school every benefit of the doubt possible. The kid was outside without a coat on during school time when the staff is responsible for him. It's full stop right there.

I can't remember who said that the school couldn't chase him, but that's absolute nonsense. The school is responsible for that child, and at the very least someone should have been following him to see where he went during school time. You don't allow him to run off, which he didn't but that's what you're claiming, without a coat in that weather, and without supervision. There's no justification for that, no matter how hard you try.
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Old 7th October 2019, 08:35 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
<snipped for focus>...because they don't have access to the footage, perhaps?
They have, but this snippet was just caught. The family said they missed it earlier. The attorney certainly would specify the few minutes of footage that would have caught the more damning evidence, and surely would have howled to the treetops if it was not produced. From this I infer that they saw it, and it didn't support their version.

Quote:
What the **** does "walking out under his own power" mean? No one is saying he was picked up and thrown outside. You, yourself, have said you can't really see if red shirt continues to push him or not as the angle blocks that view.
No way, Jose. The whole narrative initially centered around him being pushed out the door. Most advocates of the narrative have backed off that now, as the video shows that it simply did not happen. Still have a few straw-graspers, regarding whether he was pushed to the doors, or parallel to them as the video shows. But as you said, no matter. Because:

Quote:
You seem to be more than willing to give the school every benefit of the doubt possible. The kid was outside without a coat on during school time when the staff is responsible for him. It's full stop right there.

I can't remember who said that the school couldn't chase him, but that's absolute nonsense. The school is responsible for that child, and at the very least someone should have been following him to see where he went during school time. You don't allow him to run off, which he didn't but that's what you're claiming, without a coat in that weather, and without supervision. There's no justification for that, no matter how hard you try.
As I have said repeatedly now, the school has no halo in this one. They almost certainly ****** up. What I am arguing is how willingly some posters take the bait and swallow the narrative whole, to the point where they cannot see the evidence neutrally anymore.

The school surely should not have allowed him to run off. I imagine, as a gut feeling, that red shirt may have thought something like 'let the brat go. He'll be running back in a second'. This is not ok for any school personnel to do, but it is a different kind of 'not ok' than the OP dishes out.

My argument here, as it is on nearly every thread, is that people are swallowing a narrative unquestioningly. That's not what this place should be about.

The discussion has gone from 'he was pushed out the door' to 'well, he walked out the door on his own, but the school shouldn't have let him'. Classic, textbook Moving the Goalposts.
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Old 7th October 2019, 09:08 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
*snipped brevity*
I certainly haven't changed my point of view, he was pushed out the door. How people can come to a different conclusion is beyond me, and yes I've seen you use this method of reasoning before. It's obnoxious but expected because everyone thinks they're actually the ones being skeptical, not the ones who think differently. It's adorable, and I think it's absolutely a hoot. Makes me laugh every time.

Being pushed out isn't always physical, and the body language of every adult in charge in that video, the fact they put forth no effort to get the kid back in the school, and the way he was treated in the first place are all evidence of how terribly this was handled from top to bottom. They did nothing right at all.

I don't really care what version of "wrong" the school is because it means exactly **** all to me. I know it has to mean something to you because how else would you be "technically" right or the One True Skeptic if you couldn't quibble minor details?

Bottom line, the school is wrong and they have a history of this type of ****** behavior. You do you though, you #1 skeptic you.
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Old 7th October 2019, 09:19 AM   #125
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Gotcha. Applying basic skepticism on *glances at forum name* this particular site is just ridiculous.

Yeah, the school probably has dirty hands here. But you go on swallowing whole whatever twitter tripe gets shoveled out at you. Imma at least think about it before parroting.
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Old 7th October 2019, 09:25 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Gotcha. Applying basic skepticism on *glances at forum name* this particular site is just ridiculous.
If you have to claim you're something repeatedly, then chances are...

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, the school probably has dirty hands here. But you go on swallowing whole whatever twitter tripe gets shoveled out at you. Imma at least think about it before parroting.
Now just show evidence of me doing that and we're set.

I haven't, of course, that's just your claim which is supported by jack ****.

I haven't quoted Twitter, I haven't accepted anything without looking at it myself and making a decision, but my decision is different than yours. Therefor I'm not the One True Skeptic, only you are!
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Old 7th October 2019, 09:40 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
If you have to claim you're something repeatedly, then chances are...
...that someone like you is repeatedly insisting that I am defending the school, which I am not. Like when you said:

Quote:
You seem to be more than willing to give the school every benefit of the doubt possible
...which I don't. I keep saying the school has no halo on, if you recall. But to maintain your strawman, you have to deny it.

Quote:
Now just show evidence of me doing that and we're set.

I haven't, of course, that's just your claim which is supported by jack ****.

I haven't quoted Twitter, I haven't accepted anything without looking at it myself and making a decision, but my decision is different than yours.
Oh FFS, a twitter argument is an expression for these pre-conceived narratives and you know it. You're better than such a cheap evasion.

Quote:
Therefor I'm not the One True Skeptic, only you are!
Another cheap strawman. Sure beats substantial discussion, doesn't it? A lot less work.

This is what I am arguing against:

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I don't really care what version of "wrong" the school is because it means exactly **** all to me.
That's it in a nutshell. You don't care what happened, and say so straight up. I do care. Were they conspiratorial sadists, as portrayed, or just incompetent bullies? It affects how we view the overall problem and solutions.

I get that you are just going to scan this post to prop up more strawmen and ridicule and stuff, without trying to consider my point at all, so I'll sign off now.
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Old 7th October 2019, 09:48 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's it in a nutshell. You don't care what happened, and say so straight up. I do care. Were they conspiratorial sadists, as portrayed, or just incompetent bullies? It affects how we view the overall problem and solutions.

I get that you are just going to scan this post to prop up more strawmen and ridicule and stuff, without trying to consider my point at all, so I'll sign off now.
I'll respond to these lines because they're the only thing worth addressing. It's ironic you complain about strawmen, then create a strawman.

I didn't say I didn't care what happened, I said I don't care what brand of wrong they are and those two things aren't the same at all.

The school is wrong in it's entirety. I came to that conclusion by watching the footage, listening to the words that the family and the school have said, and considered the fact that the CPS has been accused of doing terrible things earlier this year. I know that, to you, that means I'm just a moron that immediately believed the OP because I'm a ******* that can't think on my own. It's insulting, but again, there are certain people that think so completely highly of themselves and their skeptic ability that anyone who disagrees has to be an uneducated dumb ass without any ability to think on their own.

Well, from everything I can tell the school acted wrongly whenever given a chance. I would say that the question you're asking yourself about their motives has been answered in my opinion.
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Old 7th October 2019, 09:49 AM   #129
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I've been skeptical of the competing claims all along. After I saw the video, my skepticism has been informed by what's on the video, and I no longer give all competing claims equal weight. I think it's a properly skeptical approach, to privilege some claims more than others as more evidence is produced. The evidence produced in the video reasonably privileges the parents' claim over the school's, in my opinion.

It's possible that further evidence will be produced that undermines or invalidates this privilege. However, I think it's profoundly unskeptical to hold out these other claims as being equally valid, simply because there may yet be other evidence beyond what's seen in the video.

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Old 7th October 2019, 10:11 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I'll respond to these lines because they're the only thing worth addressing. It's ironic you complain about strawmen, then create a strawman.

I didn't say I didn't care what happened, I said I don't care what brand of wrong they are and those two things aren't the same at all.

The school is wrong in it's entirety. I came to that conclusion by watching the footage, listening to the words that the family and the school have said, and considered the fact that the CPS has been accused of doing terrible things earlier this year. I know that, to you, that means I'm just a moron that immediately believed the OP because I'm a ******* that can't think on my own. It's insulting,...
Hold up. If that's your take, you're reading in far too much. I run away with narratives, too. We all do. Sometimes another poster snaps me out of it with a good point. An I appreciate it. That's why I'm here. It's not some superiority thing. We post here for mutual benefit from discussion, don't we? Sure, we all get heated and barbed sometimes. Look at the insults you've been lobbing at me. Which, btw, are demonstrable and don't require reading into their meanings.

If you take any of my posts as condescending or whatever, please accept my apologies. Not intended that way, just frustration.

Quote:
...but again, there are certain people that think so completely highly of themselves and their skeptic ability that anyone who disagrees has to be an uneducated dumb ass without any ability to think on their own.
And some just feel like they are not getting their point across, and keep hammering it to death in different ways. Posters who think they are superior bail quickly in a debate with their noses in the air. Sustained debate is for those who think there is a worthwhile discussion to be had. I tend to hang in for obscene amounts of posts, to hear arguments out for mutual benefit. I think it's a healthy exercise, not condescending. You and I tend to talk past each other though.

Quote:
Well, from everything I can tell the school acted wrongly whenever given a chance. I would say that the question you're asking yourself about their motives has been answered in my opinion.
Right, but you aren't interested in what level of wrong they are? A little, blown out of proportion by the plaintiffs, or a lot, requiring an administrative overhaul? I think the particular variety of wrong is hella critical, especially when the plaintiffs have their hands out for a check. That alone makes me very cynical about their motives, and holds their proofs to a higher standard.
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Old 7th October 2019, 12:52 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I've been skeptical of the competing claims all along. After I saw the video, my skepticism has been informed by what's on the video, and I no longer give all competing claims equal weight. I think it's a properly skeptical approach, to privilege some claims more than others as more evidence is produced. The evidence produced in the video reasonably privileges the parents' claim over the school's, in my opinion.

It's possible that further evidence will be produced that undermines or invalidates this privilege. However, I think it's profoundly unskeptical to hold out these other claims as being equally valid, simply because there may yet be other evidence beyond what's seen in the video.
Fair POV. I think the video supports likely unnecessary roughness by red shirt. It further is hard pressed to explain why red shirt watches the boy through the glass, rather than going straight out after him, which IMO he should have, in the interests of the child's safety. Then again, the video stops there, so we don't know that he didn't or exactly what happened.

One snippet of video does not fully support the plaintiffs claims, and if they had more damning video, I would expect it shown instead. This kind of smacks of 'well, this angle kind of supports what we claim, so let's run with it'. The same logic used in many of the #LWB threads which don't demonstrate what they claim to.
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Old 7th October 2019, 01:18 PM   #132
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del for poor reading comprehension.
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