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Old 9th October 2019, 02:23 PM   #1
wasapi
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Rape charges against Matt Lauer

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/to...cid=spartandhp

This has nothing to do with adultery, office affairs, or predatory behavior. This is about him sodomizing another employee as she screamed and fought. Charges have been filed.

It doesn't matter that he is a celebrity. I just don't care. But he is a violent predator, a rapist, and needs to go to prison.
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Old 9th October 2019, 02:35 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/to...cid=spartandhp

This has nothing to do with adultery, office affairs, or predatory behavior. This is about him sodomizing another employee as she screamed and fought. Charges have been filed.

It doesn't matter that he is a celebrity. I just don't care. But he is a violent predator, a rapist, and needs to go to prison.
Let's just note that Lauer denies the rape allegation.
https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/mat...ll-1203364485/
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Old 9th October 2019, 02:36 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/to...cid=spartandhp

This has nothing to do with adultery, office affairs, or predatory behavior. This is about him sodomizing another employee as she screamed and fought. Charges have been filed.

It doesn't matter that he is a celebrity. I just don't care. But he is a violent predator, a rapist, and needs to go to prison.
He certainly deserves prison... if he actually did it. And while I find it quite plausible that he did, that isn't enough. An accusation alone should never suffice. And an accusation is all we've got at the moment. That may well change over time, and I hope that one way or the other more info does come out to establish the truth definitively, but it's still premature to convict him now.
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Old 9th October 2019, 06:52 PM   #4
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If he is a violent rapist then yes he does deserve prison. That said, he denies it was rape, has already admitted that the sex took place but that it was consensual but also it appears they continued to have sexual relations after the incident took place which she describes as “transactional”. For me that has to cast some doubt on the allegation that their first sexual encounter was rape. Yes, I realize it still could be.
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Old 9th October 2019, 08:41 PM   #5
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Here's a link:
https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/mat...ll-1203364485/

Quote:
In Sochi, Nevils was tasked with working with former “Today” co-anchor Meredith Vieira, who’d been brought back to the show to do Olympics coverage. In Nevils’ account, one night over drinks with Vieira at the hotel bar where the NBC News team was staying, they ran into Lauer, who joined them. At the end of the night, Nevils, who’d had six shots of vodka, ended up going to Lauer’s hotel room twice — once to retrieve her press credential, which Lauer had taken as a joke, and the second time because he invited her back. Nevils, Farrow writes, “had no reason to suspect Lauer would be anything but friendly based on prior experience.”

Once she was in his hotel room, Nevils alleges, Lauer — who was wearing a T-shirt and boxers — pushed her against the door and kissed her. He then pushed her onto the bed, “flipping her over, asking if she liked anal sex,” Farrow writes. “She said that she declined several times.”

According to Nevils, she “was in the midst of telling him she wasn’t interested again when he ‘just did it,’” Farrow writes. “Lauer, she said, didn’t use lubricant. The encounter was excruciatingly painful. ‘It hurt so bad. I remember thinking, Is this normal?’ She told me she stopped saying no, but wept silently into a pillow.” Lauer then asked her if she liked it. She tells him yes. She claims that “she bled for days,” Farrow writes.

Nevils tells Farrow: “It was nonconsensual in the sense that I was too drunk to consent,” she says. “It was nonconsensual in that I said, multiple times, that I didn’t want to have anal sex.”

In his letter, Lauer responded: “I had an extramarital affair with Brooke Nevils in 2014,” Lauer says. “It began when she came to my hotel room very late one night in Sochi, Russia. We engaged in a variety of sexual acts. We performed oral sex on each other, we had vaginal sex, and we had anal sex. Each act was mutual and completely consensual.”

Back in New York City, Nevils had more sexual encounters with Lauer. “Sources close to Lauer emphasized that she sometimes initiated contact,” Farrow writes. “What is not in dispute is that Nevils, like several of the women I’d spoken to, had further sexual encounters with the man she said assaulted her. ‘This is what I blame myself most for,’” she says to Farrow. “It was completely transactional. It was not a relationship.”

She was terrified about the control Lauer had over her career. After her encounters with Lauer ended, Nevils said she told “like a million people” about her situation with Lauer.
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Old 9th October 2019, 08:54 PM   #6
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In what way would that not be "predatory behaviour"?
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Old 9th October 2019, 09:15 PM   #7
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It certainly sounds predatory to me.
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Old 9th October 2019, 11:35 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/to...cid=spartandhp

This has nothing to do with adultery, office affairs, or predatory behavior. This is about him sodomizing another employee as she screamed and fought. Charges have been filed.
Okay, where have charges been filed? Where is the claim that she screamed and fought? In the excerpt from Variety:

Quote:
Nevils tells Farrow: “It was nonconsensual in the sense that I was too drunk to consent,” she says. “It was nonconsensual in that I said, multiple times, that I didn’t want to have anal sex.”
Note I am not saying this is not rape. I am just saying that you are mischaracterising things by saying she screamed and fought.
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Old 10th October 2019, 08:34 AM   #9
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Tough situation. On the one hand, I hope this isn't revenge for career advancement sex that didn't pay off. On the other hand, I *really* hope nobody got raped.
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Old 10th October 2019, 08:47 AM   #10
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Yeah, this could be complicated. She says she was too drunk to consent to anything, and that she said she liked it when he asked afterwards. As part of their continuing 'transactional' arrangement, is he going to claim that it was part of the deal, or that she rescinded at some point on her initial declining, or was drunkenly unclear or something?
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Old 10th October 2019, 08:55 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
While each of these is valid separately, and I don't really have a problem with using them jointly, it is kind of weird. At least from a space-robotically logical perspective:
Nevils tells Farrow: “It was nonconsensual in the sense that I was too drunk to consent,” she says. “It was nonconsensual in that I said, multiple times, that I didn’t want to have anal sex.”
If she was too drunk for her consent to have any meaning, then she was too drunk for her nonconsent to have any meaning. In practice, we wisely resolve the conundrum by saying that if neither the "yes" nor the "no" can be trusted, we must default to an assumption of "no" and be held responsible accordingly. The fact that she's using the first argument - too drunk to consent - renders the second argument - expressed nonconsent - moot.

Obviously only a depraved madman would use the excuse, "she was too drunk for me to assume that her no really meant no, so I went with 'yes'." I doubt even Lauer will go that far.

Anyway, /sidebar.
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:03 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
While each of these is valid separately, and I don't really have a problem with using them jointly, it is kind of weird. At least from a space-robotically logical perspective:
Nevils tells Farrow: “It was nonconsensual in the sense that I was too drunk to consent,” she says. “It was nonconsensual in that I said, multiple times, that I didn’t want to have anal sex.”
If she was too drunk for her consent to have any meaning, then she was too drunk for her nonconsent to have any meaning. In practice, we wisely resolve the conundrum by saying that if neither the "yes" nor the "no" can be trusted, we must default to an assumption of "no" and be held responsible accordingly. The fact that she's using the first argument - too drunk to consent - renders the second argument - expressed nonconsent - moot.

Obviously only a depraved madman would use the excuse, "she was too drunk for me to assume that her no really meant no, so I went with 'yes'." I doubt even Lauer will go that far.

Anyway, /sidebar.

I don't think it odd that a person who is too drunk to actually give consent at the same time recalls expressly saying no.

I know I recall being severely wasted and yet being able to say no to foods I did not like to eat. I would think refusing anal sex would be an easier call than my undying distaste for McDonalds.
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:26 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If she was too drunk for her consent to have any meaning, then she was too drunk for her nonconsent to have any meaning. In practice, we wisely resolve the conundrum by saying that if neither the "yes" nor the "no" can be trusted, we must default to an assumption of "no" and be held responsible accordingly. The fact that she's using the first argument - too drunk to consent - renders the second argument - expressed nonconsent - moot.
Interestingly, I just did my Title IX training yesterday. Indeed, this is exactly what it is - consent must be affirmative, and lack of saying no does not constitute consent.

One thing I always note about our "training" exercises is that it they are based on legal precedent, so when I see a statement that "lack of saying no does not constitute consent" I interpret it as meaning that this is based on a legal outcome.
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Old 10th October 2019, 11:01 AM   #14
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But she did consent every time after that correct?
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Old 10th October 2019, 11:19 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I don't think it odd that a person who is too drunk to actually give consent at the same time recalls expressly saying no.

I know I recall being severely wasted and yet being able to say no to foods I did not like to eat. I would think refusing anal sex would be an easier call than my undying distaste for McDonalds.
Thanks for the reduction of my McDonalds consumption, that I will always now associate with anal sex.
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Old 10th October 2019, 11:25 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Thanks for the reduction of my McDonalds consumption, that I will always now associate with anal sex.

C'mon, their fries are good. Just admit it to yourself.
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Old 10th October 2019, 11:37 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
C'mon, their fries are good. Just admit it to yourself.
I can't stand them.
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Old 10th October 2019, 11:43 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I don't think it odd that a person who is too drunk to actually give consent at the same time recalls expressly saying no.
Neither do I. And if you re-read what I said, you'll realize I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that logically, "it was rape because I was too drunk for my 'yes' to mean anything" supersedes and renders moot "it was rape because I said 'no' (while I was too drunk for my 'no' to mean anything").

Quote:
I know I recall being severely wasted and yet being able to say no to foods I did not like to eat. I would think refusing anal sex would be an easier call than my undying distaste for McDonalds.
My argument does not hinge on a claim of forgetting what was said. It hinges on a claim that what was said could not be trusted.
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Old 10th October 2019, 01:31 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm saying that logically, "it was rape because I was too drunk for my 'yes' to mean anything" supersedes and renders moot "it was rape because I said 'no' (while I was too drunk for my 'no' to mean anything").
I would see them as reinforcing, not superseding: Even though I was completely drunk I still didn't want a Big Mac.

The state of consent starts at "no", her statement is "no", and she is too drunk for a drunken "yes" to be considered consent even if she had said "yes". But she didn't.

Her "no" meant something, it was not moot. It simply didn't change the state of consent.
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Old 10th October 2019, 01:32 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Thanks for the reduction of my McDonalds consumption, that I will always now associate with anal sex.
You are welcome.
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Old 10th October 2019, 01:34 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I would see them as reinforcing, not superseding: Even though I was completely drunk I still didn't want a Big Mac.

The state of consent starts at "no", her statement is "no", and she is too drunk for a drunken "yes" to be considered consent even if she had said "yes". But she didn't.

Her "no" meant something, it was not moot. It simply didn't change the state of consent.
Quite a few girls in college apparently raped me because I was definitely too drunk to consent.
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Old 10th October 2019, 01:38 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I would see them as reinforcing, not superseding: Even though I was completely drunk I still didn't want a Big Mac.

The state of consent starts at "no", her statement is "no", and she is too drunk for a drunken "yes" to be considered consent even if she had said "yes". But she didn't.

Her "no" meant something, it was not moot. It simply didn't change the state of consent.
Eh. I still like my logic better. Anyway, it's nothing important, and I don't dispute her idea of what counts as rape. Like I said at the beginning, it's just a space-robot thing.
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Old 10th October 2019, 01:41 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I can't stand them.
Then you don't know fries.
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Old 10th October 2019, 02:10 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Eh. I still like my logic better. Anyway, it's nothing important, and I don't dispute her idea of what counts as rape. Like I said at the beginning, it's just a space-robot thing.
That's not space-robot, that's very human.
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Old 10th October 2019, 02:11 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Quite a few girls in college apparently raped me because I was definitely too drunk to consent.
Yes, you may have noticed that things have changed over the last forty years.
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Old 10th October 2019, 02:26 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
That's not space-robot, that's very human.
That's because I'm a human who sometimes likes to fire up a space-robot emulator and amuse myself with its cogitations.
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Old 10th October 2019, 02:45 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's because I'm a human who sometimes likes to fire up a space-robot emulator and amuse myself with its cogitations.
Thank you for sharing the amusing cogitations output by your space-robot emulator.

I enjoyed thinking about the issue in that context. Far better than the context of the OP.
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Old 10th October 2019, 02:48 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Thank you for sharing the amusing cogitations output by your space-robot emulator.

I enjoyed thinking about the issue in that context. Far better than the context of the OP.
Oh, for sure. That's why I stated up front and at the end, that I don't dispute her claims or criticize her arguments.
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Old 10th October 2019, 03:01 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Interestingly, I just did my Title IX training yesterday. Indeed, this is exactly what it is - consent must be affirmative, and lack of saying no does not constitute consent.
Title IX is not relevant here. That is not the standard for criminal conduct.
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Old 10th October 2019, 03:02 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Quite a few girls in college apparently raped me because I was definitely too drunk to consent.
And I'm glad that you suffered no harm from that, I am assuming that is the point you are wanting to make?

Is so what relevance does it have to someone else being raped?

Rape is always wrong no matter how little or how badly it affects the victim.
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Old 10th October 2019, 03:06 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And I'm glad that you suffered no harm from that, I am assuming that is the point you are wanting to make?

Is so what relevance does it have to someone else being raped?

Rape is always wrong no matter how little or how badly it affects the victim.
I think his point is that "too drunk to consent" is often stretched beyond reason.

But it doesn't really matter in this case, because she claims she told him "no". If we believe her story (and she's the source of the claim that she was drunk), then that "no" suffices to make it criminal, regardless of how inebriated she was.
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Old 10th October 2019, 03:32 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And I'm glad that you suffered no harm from that, I am assuming that is the point you are wanting to make?

Is so what relevance does it have to someone else being raped?

Rape is always wrong no matter how little or how badly it affects the victim.
The argument that I was too drunk to consent and therefore it was rape strikes me as silly. Are we all supposed to maintain a breathalyzer in our bedroom? I mean, obviously if somebody is passed out drunk, they are too drunk to consent. But if they are still reasonably functioning and giving either explicit or very strong implicit consent (e.g., by removing clothing or stimulating the other person)?

And quite obviously when one partner is inebriated, odds are very good they both are. Can they both have raped each other?

What's happening here is that a very serious crime is getting conflated with common behavior among young adults. I don't see how that helps anybody.
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:08 PM   #33
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sorry

I really want to apologize for my OP. Right about the time I posted, I was watching the announcement on TV, and reading - scanning - an online article that had just popped up. I reacted in a knee-jerk, uninformed rant, announcing him guilty (in my mind).

It is difficult to excuse myself because I feel I am in a position to know better. For one, I worked as a private investigator where the first rule is, never make an assumption from emotion when you don't have all the information. Also, for years I worked at a Rape Crisis Center, and should know about controlling knee-jerk reactions.

The truth is, at this point I am missing much detail and information, and need to look into it more before I can even inform any opinions. But I like reading yours.
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:12 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The argument that I was too drunk to consent and therefore it was rape strikes me as silly. Are we all supposed to maintain a breathalyzer in our bedroom? I mean, obviously if somebody is passed out drunk, they are too drunk to consent. But if they are still reasonably functioning and giving either explicit or very strong implicit consent (e.g., by removing clothing or stimulating the other person)?

And quite obviously when one partner is inebriated, odds are very good they both are. Can they both have raped each other?

What's happening here is that a very serious crime is getting conflated with common behavior among young adults. I don't see how that helps anybody.

The usual legal standard, in actual court cases, is that "too drunk to consent" means too drunk to coherently express consent. Such as being unconscious or semi-conscious or unable to utter comprehensible speech.

On the Internet, "too drunk to consent" is often interpreted as "too drunk to have made a wise or carefully considered decision." But that's not how it applies in court, assuming the drunkenness itself was brought on voluntarily (i.e. by knowingly imbibing alcohol served in typical doses).

"Taking advantage" of an adult who of their own volition has "had a little too much" and unwisely consents (or even invites) is poor behavior, contemptible if done by design with premeditation, but it's not rape and not a crime.

IANAL. This is not legal advice. It's Internet debating advice.
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:12 PM   #35
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The opinions above are making me think that if I get wasted, I'll get lucky. Might try that, because this whole 'boyish charm' thing isn't working out.
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:29 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The opinions above are making me think that if I get wasted, I'll get lucky. Might try that, because this whole 'boyish charm' thing isn't working out.

I think you've just figured out why singles bars exist.
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:37 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I think you've just figured out why singles bars exist.
My wife still frowns on them
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:42 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
IANAL. This is not legal advice. It's Internet debating advice.
I read this as saying, "[i]t's Internet dating advice" which upon reflection, could work either way.



Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
My wife still frowns on them
Then don't invite her.
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:44 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Then you don't know fries.

If you think McDonald's fries taste anywhere near as good as the fries I get at my local Dari Delite then you do not know fries, at all.

McD's used to use fat to make their fries. THAT is when they were good. Then about 30 years ago they started using some other oil and they've never tasted the same. People are just used to them now.

They are, however better than In n' Out fries, fresh potatoes or not. In n' Out do not know how to make fresh fries.

Back on topic - I don't care about the topic, sorry. I don't read the National Enquirer either. To me this is just Jerry Springer level crap. Celebrities are just as bad, possibly worse, than normal people...news at 11.
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:44 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
...IANAL...
On this thread? And I get accused of tastelessness.
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