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Old 9th October 2019, 01:08 PM   #41
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
This is a win/win situation for the environment. PG&E is not only going to prevent CO2 from wildfires, they are preventing CO2 that would've been emitted into the atmosphere from the electricity used over the next several days.

PG&E should be applauded for their contribution to end global warming.
Global Warming Deniers say the funniest things!
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Old 9th October 2019, 01:27 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Where is Erin Brockovich when you need her?
If Cracked.com was correct, then this mess is probably partly the result of Erin Brockovich trying to fix it.
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Old 9th October 2019, 02:42 PM   #43
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The Prestige has a point to a degree. In the wake of Paradise burning down last year the political reaction was to threaten PG&E to never let another fire like that happen or be nationalized (but at a state level...."statelized?") and in my opinion you either just take them over or you don't. Simply throwing out the threat while not giving them resources to accomplish it is how we got into this problem.


Oh and I'm still up and running, we have a temporary reprieve dependent on the winds.
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Old 9th October 2019, 02:45 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
The argument is clearly not that they should turn the power off, its that they shouldn't have to. If they'd maintained their infrastructure as required by the various laws that give them a monopoly on power in N. California, then this wouldn't be a story.
Can you elaborate on this? A wind storm can bring down power lines, causing the broken cable to contact the ground. A high-temperature arc can form where the cable meets the ground. As far as I know, in bone dry conditions any vegetation in the area, including grasses, will ignite. How do you propose stopping grass from growing beneath the power line?
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Old 9th October 2019, 03:04 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Can you elaborate on this? A wind storm can bring down power lines, causing the broken cable to contact the ground. A high-temperature arc can form where the cable meets the ground. As far as I know, in bone dry conditions any vegetation in the area, including grasses, will ignite. How do you propose stopping grass from growing beneath the power line?
Strengthen power lines and remove vegetation near them. That is what we were able to do in our obscure 5 million state in Australia. Surely this is within the capability of California. And to remind people, our state of Victoria is at least as fire prone as California.
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Old 9th October 2019, 03:24 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Can you elaborate on this? A wind storm can bring down power lines, causing the broken cable to contact the ground. A high-temperature arc can form where the cable meets the ground. As far as I know, in bone dry conditions any vegetation in the area, including grasses, will ignite. How do you propose stopping grass from growing beneath the power line?
Short grasses growing in firebreak are less likely to escalate into a major wildfire, than a mass of dry brush along the power line, or trees overgrowing the power line. The idea is not to perfectly remove all possible fuel. The idea is to create enough of a fuel shortage that small blazes are unlikely to spread very far before dying out.

Now, obviously no solution is perfect. There could always be some unusual convergence of wind, fire, and fuel that gets out of control in spite of all reasonable efforts to avoid that sort of thing.

I think a reasonable energy infrastructure policy would require reasonable efforts, but also recognize that transmitting electricity across the landscape is inherently risky, and sometimes wildfires will start through no fault of the power company, but simply as a side effect of humans wanting to get **** done.

That's not really the case in California, though. California's problem is a proliferation of poorly-managed powerlines and powerline firebreaks, and a piss-poor forest management approach that makes wildfires much more likely and much harder to control when they do break out, and a funding gap that leaves California without all the firefighting resources it needs to handle the amount of fires it invites.

If we're apportioning blame, I'd blame PG&E for starting some of the fires through negligence, and I'd blame California for some of the extent of the damage from these fires. Some of it, of course, is just stuff that happens even when everyone is doing their best.
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Old 9th October 2019, 06:18 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Can you elaborate on this? A wind storm can bring down power lines, causing the broken cable to contact the ground. A high-temperature arc can form where the cable meets the ground. As far as I know, in bone dry conditions any vegetation in the area, including grasses, will ignite. How do you propose stopping grass from growing beneath the power line?
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Strengthen power lines and remove vegetation near them. That is what we were able to do in our obscure 5 million state in Australia. Surely this is within the capability of California. And to remind people, our state of Victoria is at least as fire prone as California.
Parts of rural California are pretty far behind the curve. It's not just the vegetation growing under the lines - in some cases it is trees growing next to the lines, tall enough for limbs or the trees themselves to fall onto the lines.

For the rest, the perfect is not the enemy of the good. Grass burns, but limited fuels to grass-only is better than oakbrush or chaparral under the lines.
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Old 9th October 2019, 06:55 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Happy that ther in Sacramento I get my power from SMUD (Sacramento Municpal Utility District).
Where does SMUD get its power?

I get mine from Jefferson County (Washington) Public Utility District (PUD) Number 1. Total amount of generating capability owned by JCPUD1: 0.000000W.
If Bonneville Power sneezes, my lights go out.
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Old 9th October 2019, 07:38 PM   #49
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What upsets me is that we pay insanely high prices for electricity here and PG&E has a deal where if they lose profit they can raise rates to cover losses.

So why so many problems still? Our rates aren't enough?

Six years ago or so I was paying about half per/kw hour as I am now. I believe it was around 11 or 12 cents then, now it is 22 - 23, and that's only until you use a certain amount then it skyrockets to over 50 cents!

https://www.pge.com/en_US/residentia...base-plan.page

PG&E and all California utilities are sucking us dry so I expect them to have their crap together. This is ridiculous.

Yay California - a state so prosperous it leads the nation in poverty and homelessness. Now maybe people can see why, at least a little.

Global warming causing fires? Try Cali not taking care of the forests for the last 30 years. Too afraid of the environmentalists (lawyers) that want to leave them as they are, full of dead underbrush. I have already linked to all of this before. Look up San Diego fire from 15 - 20 years ago. That's exactly what happened.
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Old 10th October 2019, 01:43 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you blurt out every non sequitur that pops into your head, stream-of-consciousness style, please don't complain that your blurtings are engaged at face value.

Blurting, my rather frustrated friend, is in the eye of the beholder. One man's blurt is another man's profound statement. I suggest you get over it.
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Old 10th October 2019, 01:45 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
What upsets me is that we pay insanely high prices for electricity here and PG&E has a deal where if they lose profit they can raise rates to cover losses.


Waitaminit!!!!!!!


There's no other supplier and yet the supplier make a profit???
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Old 10th October 2019, 01:45 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Global warming. It's the cause of every fire, apparently.

Global warming makes wildfires worse and more probable. It's just science. Deal with it.
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Old 10th October 2019, 03:35 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Global warming makes wildfires worse and more probable. It's just science. Deal with it.
Science tells us that fires require fuel, air and an ignition source. Global warning created a tinderbox that was just waiting for ignition. A massive fire was inevitable. It could have been started with carelessly discarded cigarette, a car stopping in tall grass with a hot catalytic converter, or a lightning strike. If it doesnít burn this year it will burn sometime in the next few years.
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:16 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Parts of rural California are pretty far behind the curve. It's not just the vegetation growing under the lines - in some cases it is trees growing next to the lines, tall enough for limbs or the trees themselves to fall onto the lines.

For the rest, the perfect is not the enemy of the good. Grass burns, but limited fuels to grass-only is better than oakbrush or chaparral under the lines.
Of course trees growing near the lines are a problem. Here they are cut away. I have to ensure trees are nowhere near powerlines on my property. Otherwise the government does the job.
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Old 10th October 2019, 08:08 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Science tells us that fires require fuel, air and an ignition source. Global warning created a tinderbox that was just waiting for ignition. A massive fire was inevitable. It could have been started with carelessly discarded cigarette, a car stopping in tall grass with a hot catalytic converter, or a lightning strike. If it doesnít burn this year it will burn sometime in the next few years.
There are much more proximate causes of California wildfires, than "global warming".
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Old 10th October 2019, 08:12 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Where does SMUD get its power?



I get mine from Jefferson County (Washington) Public Utility District (PUD) Number 1. Total amount of generating capability owned by JCPUD1: 0.000000W.

If Bonneville Power sneezes, my lights go out.
According to Wikipedia, SMUD is a utility in its own right, with its own generation facilities. I don't think know if they own their own transmission lines, though. If PG&E has shut down the transmission infrastructure, SMUD may not be able to send power to other parts of the state even if they had power to send.
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Old 10th October 2019, 09:01 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There are much more proximate causes of California wildfires, than "global warming".

Absolutely. One known major recent proximate cause of California wildfires has been electricity flowing through transmission lines.

Hence, prudent focusing on the most proximate causes dictates preventing the wildfires by removing the electrical charge from said transmission lines, exactly as PG&E has elected to do in the present case.

Unless perhaps you think effective problem-solving calls for broader approaches than addressing only the most proximate causes. In which case, let's address climate change in that context, as a factor that contributes to damaging breakdowns, and to service disruptions resulting from efforts to avoid same, by stressing fragile infrastructure into unexpected operating regimes.
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Old 10th October 2019, 09:21 AM   #58
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And in a surprise to no one, the power outage is disproportionately impacting the sick and disabled.

PG&E power outage leaves the ill and disabled struggling

Excerpt:
Quote:
Thousands of Northern California PG&E customers who are medically fragile were more alarmed than most about Wednesday’s power outages, as they scrambled for backup energy sources for the equipment that helps them stay mobile, refrigerates their medications, or even keeps them alive.

Northern California hospitals and other health facilities were mostly running as usual Wednesday, officials said. And there had been no reports of individuals in immediate danger due to the outages. But people who rely on electricity in their homes for critical medical needs — everything from keeping their insulin refrigerated to running their motorized wheelchairs or breathing machines — said they feared for their safety if the power stayed out for more than a few hours.

Some can make it to emergency rooms; but given the sheer numbers of people dependent on electricity for their survival, hospitals could quickly find themselves overwhelmed.

Originally Posted by Travis View Post
The Prestige has a point to a degree. In the wake of Paradise burning down last year the political reaction was to threaten PG&E to never let another fire like that happen or be nationalized (but at a state level...."statelized?") and in my opinion you either just take them over or you don't. Simply throwing out the threat while not giving them resources to accomplish it is how we got into this problem.

A for-profit, publicly-traded company should be more than capable of finding and managing their own resources, if their management is at all competent.

This situation is a very good argument in favour of nationalizing critical utilities like power. Private companies have repeatedly demonstrated that they are willing and eager to cut any corners that exist in order to maximize profits, to the detriment of their customers and the environment.
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Old 10th October 2019, 09:44 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
What upsets me is that we pay insanely high prices for electricity here and PG&E has a deal where if they lose profit they can raise rates to cover losses.
I wonder how much of your current high rates is directly related to Enron raping PG&E.
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Old 10th October 2019, 02:05 PM   #60
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So. Cal Edison should have listened to Edison!! And not that snake oil/AC/deathray shyster, Tesla!!

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 10th October 2019, 02:37 PM   #61
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It's all a plot by Home Depot and Lowe's to sell more Honda generators.

Also, you think it's bad now, Ca will show how to truly mismanage a utility. (If 'nationalized')
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Old 10th October 2019, 02:38 PM   #62
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This is where I wouldn't mind having a Tesla at home that I could use to power some lights and recharge my phone with. If used carefully it could last a few days.

ETA: but a couple of Honda EU3000 generators would be a lot cheaper.
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Old 10th October 2019, 03:26 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by LongFuzzy View Post
It's all a plot by Home Depot and Lowe's to sell more Honda generators.
.....
Speaking of plots, is there any public feeling that the power company didn't really need to conduct such an extensive shutdown, but did it anyway just as an f.u. to the people who are demanding changes in management and maintenance?

ETA: On the other hand, multiple wildfires are already under way in Southern California.
https://www.latimes.com/california/s...ern-california

Last edited by Bob001; 10th October 2019 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 10th October 2019, 03:53 PM   #64
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Speaking of plots, is there any public feeling that the power company didn't really need to conduct such an extensive shutdown, but did it anyway just as an f.u. to the people who are demanding changes in management and maintenance?

ETA: On the other hand, multiple wildfires are already under way in Southern California.
https://www.latimes.com/california/s...ern-california
Yes, definitely. Even the Governor (Gavin Newsom) expressed such sentiments.

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...ed-infuriated/

On the other hand:

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...-access-newsom

Surfs up, bitches!
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Old 10th October 2019, 03:55 PM   #65
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Yes, definitely. Even the Governor (Gavin Newsom) expressed such sentiments.



https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...ed-infuriated/



On the other hand:



https://www.latimes.com/california/s...-access-newsom



Surfs up, bitches!
Even the governor? Especially the governor. Gavin Newsom, perhaps more than anyone else, has a vested interest in painting the utility as the villain in this story.
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:01 PM   #66
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Speaking of plots, is there any public feeling that the power company didn't really need to conduct such an extensive shutdown, but did it anyway just as an f.u. to the people who are demanding changes in management and maintenance?

ETA: On the other hand, multiple wildfires are already under way in Southern California.
https://www.latimes.com/california/s...ern-california
I'm betting PG&E made sure they had a valid case for shutting off power, as the best way to avoid California's promised consequences. And then this happened:

"You know we're going to piss off a lot of people."

"So? They left us no choice. Maybe a few weeks of this, they'll change their tune. And if not - **** 'em."
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:04 PM   #67
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Here's some food for thought (maybe*). A five part set of videos (with transcripts also available) regarding fires in California.

California Burning

Quote:
Natural disasters are increasing across the nation. In the West, these disasters often come in the form of wildfire, and perhaps no State understands the true cost of wildfire as California. While the Golden State has always had forest fires, these conflagrations are progressively becoming harder to control and more deadly. At the same time, Californiaís population has surpassed 40 million, pushing people further into wild spaces that have been adapted to fire. California Burning takes a deep and critical look at how the Stateís fire-prone forests have been managed, and how we can all learn from the past to be better stewards of the land and avoid catastrophic wildfires in the future.
*The catch being that I have not yet had a chance to look at it myself. I know at least one of the people involved though, and he's a thoughtful and objective person who is also a PhD level Fire Ecologist. I'll have to take a look when I get some time.
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:11 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There are much more proximate causes of California wildfires, than "global warming".
Which completey ignores the role of global warming. It makes fires worse and easier to start. It makes them more destructive.
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:15 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Which completey ignores the role of global warming. It makes fires worse and easier to start. It makes them more destructive.
I think the effects of global warming probably neglible, compared to the effects of decades of bad forest management, inadequate power infrastructure maintenance, and insufficient funding.
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:28 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Yes, definitely. Even the Governor (Gavin Newsom) expressed such sentiments.

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...ed-infuriated/

On the other hand:

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...-access-newsom

Surfs up, bitches!
I live in Sacramento, and it's is just as windy here and just as dry, and the Sacramento Muncipal Utility District does not have to shut down power.

PG and E has always been a scumbag company. They were the power company made infamous by Erin Brockovich.
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:40 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think the effects of global warming probably neglible, compared to the effects of decades of bad forest management, inadequate power infrastructure maintenance, and insufficient funding.
I'll go with what the scientists are telling me.
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Old 10th October 2019, 05:00 PM   #72
mgidm86
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think the effects of global warming probably neglible, compared to the effects of decades of bad forest management, inadequate power infrastructure maintenance, and insufficient funding.

Yep, as I already said.

What we think may be true:
Climate change could have an impact on fires starting and being worse than previous.

What we absolutely know is true:
California has mismanaged the forests for decades. Big out of control forest fires were predicted and then occurred. When we try to clean the forests out the environmentalists sue. Again, the damage from the San Diego fires were a direct result.

We know that the dead underbrush is fuel for fires but the enviro lawyers say leave it as it is. Climate change is a red herring to cover the asses of our incompetent and corrupt government.

I would think that the state would decide to work on what we know to be a problem but we do not. Instead we blame the climate and sit on our hands.

Even if I agree that climate change is a major cause we still need to manage the forests better and we do nothing! Again, this is a decades old problem.

Meanwhile the power to about 2 million customers was cut as a way to avoid fires, including mine. Back-asswards as always. The homeless. Illegals. Our water supply. Education. All disasterous.
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Last edited by mgidm86; 10th October 2019 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 10th October 2019, 05:40 PM   #73
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If you remove all of the brush under the power lines there will still be dried grasses. A fallen power line can easily start a grass fire. Under windy conditions that fire will spread to areas that have brush or trees.

When you build houses in a fire ecology, losing houses to fire should be expected. When you build communities that are only accessible by narrow twisting roads, evacuation will be a problem.
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Old 10th October 2019, 09:22 PM   #74
a_unique_person
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When winds are at hurricane force the undergrowth doesn't matter. People in Australia have died from grass fires on days of extreme fire conditions. The grass fires are intense enough to kill, the fires explode from tree to tree.
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:25 PM   #75
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A good podcast on the issue of fires in the new climate.


https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...uture/11572014
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For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes
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Old 11th October 2019, 12:00 AM   #76
Travis
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I got electricity again.

As someone living in the middle of all this let me tell you a bit about why I hate PG&E so much. For years we've been telling them to clear away trees from the power lines. We'd complain, they'd set up a town hall, we would voice our opinion that trees near power lines is a bad idea, they would say they have no money to do anything about it because of (insert other problem like paying for San Bruno gas explosion) and basically tell us they would get to it eventually one day when they have more resources.

In the meantime they would stream their meetings where they give out million dollar bonuses to executives on Youtube.

Then they almost burn down Santa Rosa. Then they really do burn down Paradise. Suddenly they are gung ho to try and cut down vegetation and remove trees. In fact they've been hiring companies from as far away as Montana to come in and do it but too little too late. It is estimated it will be three to five years before they get all the power lines clear.

Oh but they sure do pay back the shareholders.

Look, I'm not saying they're evil just that a comic book supervillain could learn lessons from them on how to screw over large populations of people.
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Old 11th October 2019, 12:59 AM   #77
bluesjnr
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I think ya'll need a delegation of Doomsday Preppers along to give you some advice. They might be useful unless you believe they are simply lying through their tooth.......
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Old 11th October 2019, 04:28 PM   #78
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I wonder how much of your current high rates is directly related to Enron raping PG&E.
PG and E had a lot of problems in the late 90's and early 2000's; the toxic waste case which was portrayed in "Erin Brockovich" for example which made it vulnerable to Enron.
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Old 11th October 2019, 04:29 PM   #79
dudalb
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I think ya'll need a delegation of Doomsday Preppers along to give you some advice. They might be useful unless you believe they are simply lying through their tooth.......
I don't know why they just don't play the "Fallout" games;a lot cheaper...
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Old 11th October 2019, 04:37 PM   #80
theprestige
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
PG and E had a lot of problems in the late 90's and early 2000's; the toxic waste case which was portrayed in "Erin Brockovich" for example which made it vulnerable to Enron.
To be fair, everyone was vulnerable to Enron. Even Enron's own executives and its founder were vulnerable.

From time to time a charlatan comes along that fools everyone, and exploits them all. You see this with the Theranos story. There's no way that douchebaggery should have lasted as long as it did. But it did last. Good people who didn't deserve it got screwed. Captains of industry who damn well should have known better got taken for a ride.

And all of this misses the point: California gave PG&E the choice of shutting off power, or risking even worse problems. It's a bit late to condemn them for taking the safer choice, regardless of their past sins. If California didn't want them to shut off power, then California should have offered a better option instead of a worse one.
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