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Old 3rd October 2019, 09:08 AM   #41
theprestige
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"I don't know if I can keep coming to school, if the bullying isn't stopped."

"Oh yeah, big guy? Is that how you want to play it? Just go truant because you don't like how we're handling this?"

"I just mean-"

"We know what you mean, friendo. If truancy is what you want, truancy is what you get!"

"What? No, wait-"

"No more waiting! You want out, so out you go. Don't try to push back now! Out! Out! Out!"

"My jacket!"

"Should have thought of that before you decided to play truant in 40 degree weather! Don't worry though, we'll call the authorities to come get you soon enough!"

Some kids you just can't reach. So you get what we had here this morning, which is the way he wants it; well, he gets it. I don’t like it any more than you do.

Last edited by theprestige; 3rd October 2019 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 10:35 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
He wasn't brought outside, he was pushed outside. You seem to leave off the part where he is pushed outside, in forty degree weather, without a coat. That is ignorantly stupid on the school's end. He's a child.

Again, as someone who has experience in seeing this type of behavior, I can't see a single thing in that video that would follow any sort of training.

Even IF the child was a danger to himself or others you don't then ******* release him outside without any supervision or guardianship. That's ******* stupid.

"He's a threat to himself or others!!"

"Quick, get him outside unsupervised where there's no chance to be a threat to himself or all of the people that aren't in this school which is literally millions"

Seriously? It doesn't even pass the sniff test.
Is that true? I don't see that in the video.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"I don't know if I can keep coming to school, if the bullying isn't stopped."

"Oh yeah, big guy? Is that how you want to play it? Just go truant because you don't like how we're handling this?"

"I just mean-"

"We know what you mean, friendo. If truancy is what you want, truancy is what you get!"

"What? No, wait-"

"No more waiting! You want out, so out you go. Don't try to push back now! Out! Out! Out!"

"My jacket!"

"Should have thought of that before you decided to play truant in 40 degree weather! Don't worry though, we'll call the authorities to come get you soon enough!"

Some kids you just can't reach. So you get what we had here this morning, which is the way he wants it; well, he gets it. I don’t like it any more than you do.
Is that the audio? The video I saw had none.

If neither of the above are factual, then speculation along those lines is useless.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 10:46 AM   #43
theprestige
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Is that true? I don't see that in the video.



Is that the audio? The video I saw had none.

If neither of the above are factual, then speculation along those lines is useless.
Post #4 embeds a video that clearly shows school staff pushing the boy out of the building:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post12841056

The dialogue I posted was my way of ridiculing the douchebags who did the pushing. HTH. HAND!

Last edited by theprestige; 3rd October 2019 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 10:50 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Is that true? I don't see that in the video.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Post #4 embeds a video that clearly shows school staff pushing the boy out of the building:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post12841056

The dialogue I posted was my way of ridiculing the douchebags who did the pushing. HTH. HAND!
As theprestige said, it's clear as day in the video.

In the absolute best case scenario here the school staff is guilty of neglecting this child by not allowing him to, or not giving him, a jacket in 40 degree weather.

Worst case scenario they threw him out in the cold and then called the cops on him for being truant.

Either one should involve charges and a lawsuit...as is tradition.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 10:58 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Post #4 embeds a video that clearly shows school staff pushing the boy out of the building:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post12841056

The dialogue I posted was my way of ridiculing the douchebags who did the pushing. HTH. HAND!
Disagreed. While they were clearly in contact coming up to the corner, by the time that kid reaches the door, he is letting himself out and red shirt has his hands on his hips and looks to be five or six feet behind him.

You could interpret this as he was pushed towards the door and told to beat feet, or that he was forcefully led out of the office but made his own improvised exit through the door, and red shirt didn't want to tackle him over it.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 11:34 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Disagreed. While they were clearly in contact coming up to the corner, by the time that kid reaches the door, he is letting himself out and red shirt has his hands on his hips and looks to be five or six feet behind him.

You could interpret this as he was pushed towards the door and told to beat feet, or that he was forcefully led out of the office but made his own improvised exit through the door, and red shirt didn't want to tackle him over it.
Right.... so he has hold of the kid gets him around the corner, waits just behind the door mat and watches the kid go out the door. If thats not obviously escorting someone out the building I don't know what else is. What other purpose would he have for bring him around the corner to the end of the hallway with nothing other than exterior doors?
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Old 3rd October 2019, 11:46 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Right.... so he has hold of the kid gets him around the corner, waits just behind the door mat and watches the kid go out the door. If thats not obviously escorting someone out the building I don't know what else is. What other purpose would he have for bring him around the corner to the end of the hallway with nothing other than exterior doors?
You just set yourself for a massive helping of semantic quibbling over the word "pushing".

Don't say I didn't warn you but that's all that's going to come your way. The bulk of replies will be how all of the staff just "insert_rationalized_action_here". Which will then carry on for two pages.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 11:49 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Disagreed. While they were clearly in contact coming up to the corner, by the time that kid reaches the door, he is letting himself out and red shirt has his hands on his hips and looks to be five or six feet behind him.

You could interpret this as he was pushed towards the door and told to beat feet, or that he was forcefully led out of the office but made his own improvised exit through the door, and red shirt didn't want to tackle him over it.
Technically correct is the worst kind of correct (part 12843068 in an ongoing series). I think the appropriately reasonable interpretation of that video is that the school staff pushed the kid out. I think nothing in that video supports the claim that the kid left on his own initiative, against the wishes and efforts of the school staff. I think everything in that video supports the claim that the kid was inappropriately driven out of the building.

I think "but technically nobody had hands on him when he stepped through the doorway" is a crap excuse intended to distract from an obvious problem. As is so depressingly often the case when Technically Correct is deployed.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 11:52 AM   #49
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I keep seeing people going on about 40 degrees and t-shirts.

A quick Google tells me that is 4.5 degrees in normal people weather.

Which is pretty cold. Not instant death cold, but pretty cold.

Is that a normal type of weather in Chicago in March during school hours.

Just curious as I have zero knowledge of US weather apart from knowing it can snow lots in winter from Die Hard 2?
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Old 3rd October 2019, 11:53 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I keep seeing people going on about 40 degrees and t-shirts.

A quick Google tells me that is 4.5 degrees in normal people weather.

Which is pretty cold. Not instant death cold, but pretty cold.
Without appropriate clothing it's slow, lingering death cold.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 11:55 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
A quick Google tells me that is 4.5 degrees in normal people weather.
And yet (from my Yankistani perspective), when you say it that way, it burns.... Ouch.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 11:57 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I keep seeing people going on about 40 degrees and t-shirts.

A quick Google tells me that is 4.5 degrees in normal people weather.

Which is pretty cold. Not instant death cold, but pretty cold.

Is that a normal type of weather in Chicago in March during school hours.
I'd say it's fairly normal.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 11:59 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I'd say it's fairly normal.
Ta

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Old 3rd October 2019, 12:05 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Right.... so he has hold of the kid gets him around the corner, waits just behind the door mat and watches the kid go out the door. If thats not obviously escorting someone out the building I don't know what else is. What other purpose would he have for bring him around the corner to the end of the hallway with nothing other than exterior doors?

Maybe the kid was really strong and was pulling the guy toward the exit. Sure it doesn't look like he has much leverage, but sometimes nine year olds who look like they weigh 55 pounds soaking wet turn out to have the strength of two or three grown men. Fortunately the kid let go instead of continuing to pull the poor security guard with him through the doors out into the cold coffeeless void outside the building. At that point none of the others dared to impede him lest they end up in his clutches.

You just have to watch the video with ample imagination and sufficient pro-authoritarian sentiment.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 01:07 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Right.... so he has hold of the kid gets him around the corner, waits just behind the door mat and watches the kid go out the door. If thats not obviously escorting someone out the building I don't know what else is. What other purpose would he have for bring him around the corner to the end of the hallway with nothing other than exterior doors?
That would depend on if red shirt is pushing him to the doors, or if the kid is breaking away to head towards the doors on his own. Black sweater is in the way to see clearly which is going on. Red shirt does not, as you say, clearly get the kid around the corner.

If you set the parents' narrative aside and watch the video without preconceptions, I think it could be either. But without question, the adults are not pushing him out. He walks a few steps up to and out the doors with no adult within feet of him, or even moving towards him.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 01:14 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Technically correct is the worst kind of correct (part 12843068 in an ongoing series). I think the appropriately reasonable interpretation of that video is that the school staff pushed the kid out. I think nothing in that video supports the claim that the kid left on his own initiative, against the wishes and efforts of the school staff. I think everything in that video supports the claim that the kid was inappropriately driven out of the building.

I think "but technically nobody had hands on him when he stepped through the doorway" is a crap excuse intended to distract from an obvious problem. As is so depressingly often the case when Technically Correct is deployed.
Don't walk it around. You see what I am saying, and it's not that 'technically, no one had hands on him'. I'm saying is seems at least plausible that the school is being forthright, and the kid may have pulled away on his own and went out the doors, with the adults not wanting to manhandle any further ( red shirt perhaps realizing he already laid far too many hands on the kid).
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Old 3rd October 2019, 01:19 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That would depend on if red shirt is pushing him to the doors, or if the kid is breaking away to head towards the doors on his own. Black sweater is in the way to see clearly which is going on. Red shirt does not, as you say, clearly get the kid around the corner.

If you set the parents' narrative aside and watch the video without preconceptions, I think it could be either. But without question, the adults are not pushing him out. He walks a few steps up to and out the doors with no adult within feet of him, or even moving towards him.
The kid is leaning towards the man pushing him out. If he was pulling away he'd be leaning backwards. Unless the laws of physics took a day off that day or something.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 01:23 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Maybe the kid was really strong and was pulling the guy toward the exit. Sure it doesn't look like he has much leverage, but sometimes nine year olds who look like they weigh 55 pounds soaking wet turn out to have the strength of two or three grown men. Fortunately the kid let go instead of continuing to pull the poor security guard with him through the doors out into the cold coffeeless void outside the building. At that point none of the others dared to impede him lest they end up in his clutches.

You just have to watch the video with ample imagination and sufficient pro-authoritarian sentiment.
Or you could remember what it's like to be a kid that makes a break for it when they can, resisting an authority figure. I think it takes a more active imagination to think a group of adults conspire to abuse a child on camera and concoct a cover story on the fly, complete with filing false police reports. Takes quite a bit of conspiracy theory level thinking to get there, when what I propose may be the simpler explanation.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 01:27 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
The kid is leaning towards the man pushing him out. If he was pulling away he'd be leaning backwards. Unless the laws of physics took a day off that day or something.
When you are struggling to get away from a man holding you, you can easily shift your weight back and forth.

Seriously, you guys never fought against someone who was bigger than you? The kids movements and unimpeded escape seem entirely consistent with that to me.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 01:54 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
When you are struggling to get away from a man holding you, you can easily shift your weight back and forth.
What ******* video are you watching? The kid, at the beginning of the video, is facing the guard and pushing towards the guard. The kid isn't pulling away from the guard. The guard isn't holding him from walking away, he's holding him from walking around him, towards the interior of the school

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Seriously, you guys never fought against someone who was bigger than you? The kids movements and unimpeded escape seem entirely consistent with that to me.
Yes, I've fought against several people bigger than me. The guard pushes him around the corner and towards the door. The kid stands there a second, and then goes through the door as the guard, who had stopped, starts walking forward again.

I can't wait to see where the goalposts end on this because you take this contrarian stance in almost every thread, but the "to me" on the end of that sentence says it all. I have no idea how you're coming to this conclusion.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 02:00 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
He wasn't brought outside, he was pushed outside.
Pushing is a method of bringing. I've seen a lot of teachers and school officials move students who do not want to be moved. Pushing, pulling, on rare occaisions carrying. It is not pretty, but it is sometimes the only way to bring a child where they need to be. So the fact that he is being pushed, dragged, whatever is not that relevant.



Quote:
You seem to leave off the part where he is pushed outside, in forty degree weather, without a coat. That is ignorantly stupid on the school's end. He's a child.
Many people have mentioned the weather. Did I need to say it again?



Quote:
Again, as someone who has experience in seeing this type of behavior, I can't see a single thing in that video that would follow any sort of training.

Even IF the child was a danger to himself or others you don't then ******* release him outside without any supervision or guardianship. That's ******* stupid.
My main point in my last post, that you seem to have skipped over, is that the video doesn't definitively show that the child was left without supervision. If the video had showed the security officer walking away from the door, then we might say that. But there doesn't pass a second on video that the child is not being watched by adults.

Quote:
"Quick, get him outside unsupervised where there's no chance to be a threat to himself or all of the people that aren't in this school which is literally millions"
Again, my whole point is that the video doesn't show that. It may be the case, but the video doesn't show them leaving a child unsupervised. You have to extrapolate to get that. And I find that extrapolating when you only have one side of a story can get you misled.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 02:11 PM   #62
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When I was in school bullies got away with whatever they wanted to do. The 50's and 60's you handled things on your won under all circumstances. I saw a boy get his front teeth knocked out and the guy who knocked them out didn't even get his hands spanked. Weaker students walked around campus in a state of fear of being bullied, assaulted, robbed, spit on, shoved you name it. In those days you didn't tell and if on the rare occasion someone did nothing happened.

Just like now students who were different were often deliberately humiliated in front of the entire class giving the bullies a license to make it worse. Nothings changed. Maybe there's something about teaching that brings the meanness out of men and women in that profession. Kids are in danger waiting on the bus, in the bus in the hallways, in the classroom and I see no end in sight.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 02:15 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Pushing is a method of bringing. I've seen a lot of teachers and school officials move students who do not want to be moved. Pushing, pulling, on rare occaisions carrying. It is not pretty, but it is sometimes the only way to bring a child where they need to be. So the fact that he is being pushed, dragged, whatever is not that relevant.











Many people have mentioned the weather. Did I need to say it again?











My main point in my last post, that you seem to have skipped over, is that the video doesn't definitively show that the child was left without supervision. If the video had showed the security officer walking away from the door, then we might say that. But there doesn't pass a second on video that the child is not being watched by adults.



"He's a threat to himself or others!!"







Again, my whole point is that the video doesn't show that. It may be the case, but the video doesn't show them leaving a child unsupervised. You have to extrapolate to get that. And I find that extrapolating when you only have one side of a story can get you misled.
We do see the security guard walking back into the school.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 02:19 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
We do see the security guard walking back into the school.
Two people accompany the child to the vestibule with a third person hanging back and watching. The watcher and the person in a dark top both turn back and head into the school, the man in the red shirt does not and is still in the vestibule when the video ends.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 03:46 PM   #65
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Their behavior was criminal. I have a special needs child in the 6th grade. She frequently tries to walk away from school, at times hallucinating and trying to run away from the creature she sees. (She has drawn pictures for me of the "creatures" she is running from). Her school is understaffed, and they have kids in worse conditions physically. Yet I can not imagine any scenario where this would be allowed. None.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 04:19 PM   #66
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We know we can't believe everything the school says. I also don't believe everything the kid and his family say.

And we will never get the whole story, only what the kid's lawyers want to tell us.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 05:04 PM   #67
mgidm86
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Right.... so he has hold of the kid gets him around the corner, waits just behind the door mat and watches the kid go out the door. If thats not obviously escorting someone out the building I don't know what else is. What other purpose would he have for bring him around the corner to the end of the hallway with nothing other than exterior doors?

The claim is that the kid was pushed out the door. It's in every news article and all over this thread. The claim is not that he was pushed towards a corner which is 40 feet from the door. That's goalpost moving.

This is not pedantic, it is correct.

I have no other opinions about this case or the actions of the school, I only watched the videos.

Maybe he was verbally forced to leave, maybe maybe maybe, but what I do know is that the claim is incorrect.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 06:15 PM   #68
Checkmite
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
The claim is that the kid was pushed out the door. It's in every news article and all over this thread. The claim is not that he was pushed towards a corner which is 40 feet from the door.
No, he was pushed toward an alcove which is entirely comprised of a door, after which his way out of that alcove is completely blocked by adults, leaving nowhere to go but out.

This trying to hem and haw over there being no audio and thus no way to tell for sure whether he was forced to leave is preposterous. The boy was clearly bodily forced specifically toward the door by the red-shirted security guard. The boy clearly hesitates before going through the door, while his way back into the hallway is physically blocked by the adults. When the boy reluctantly goes through the doors, the security guard in the red shirt follows to close the outer door behind him and remains in the foyer to prevent the boy's re-entry into the building. The only person whose body language is even the least confrontational during the entire episode, is the security guard.
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Last edited by Checkmite; 3rd October 2019 at 06:16 PM.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 06:32 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
remains in the foyer to prevent the boy's re-entry into the building.
This has been said a couple times. In 2019, I guarantee you school doors lock automatically. I visit a number of schools every year for work. High income, low income across many states, and every door locks automatically when it closes.

Only the doors at the main entrance are unlocked for any length of time during arrival and dismissal. So the guard cannot be there to stop the child from re-entering the building.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 10:10 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
...I can't wait to see where the goalposts end on this...
Just a few posts ago you said the guard pushed him out the door. Demonstrably false, and not exactly a margin call either. The kid takes a few steps to get to the doors, opens them himself and walks out.

Now, you could argue (via facts not in evidence) that the guard was ordering him out. But my argument here is that you and others are letting the one-sided narrative obscure the facts. They say the guard pushed him out, and your arm has to be twisted to acknowledge that that is factually false.

The OP says he was forced out of the building and (get this) we only need one side of the story (the plaintiffs) to judge. The video unequivocally shows no physical forcing out of the building. But you and others can only interpret the story through the narrative. You simply can't see what is in front of your eyes. Instead, you jump on board this textbook conspiracy theory: the sadistic school personnel (and they seem to have quite a few) conspire to cruelly abuse a student on camera. Then they conspire to falsify reports with the police. And this was all to...why again? Just evil school workers, all getting together just this once to torture one kid once?

Quote:
...because you take this contrarian stance in almost every thread, but the "to me" on the end of that sentence says it all. I have no idea how you're coming to this conclusion.
If you think I 'take this contrarian stance in almost every thread', we likely have nothing to discuss. If I have a differing opinion, I will argue it. In theory, it should add something to the discussion. But I don't dogpile much with topics I agree with. If you think that is being contrarian, you got a ways to go, grasshopper.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 10:38 PM   #71
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Those adults are idiots whether they pushed the kid out or intimidated him so he left or didn't stop him from leaving. The kid is nine for crying out loud. This is similar to that cop who handcuffed and arrested a 6 year old because she kicked someone.

He needed a safe place and proper arbitration.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 10:46 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Those adults are idiots whether they pushed the kid out or intimidated him so he left or didn't stop him from leaving.
Tend to agree with this, whatever led up to it.
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Old 4th October 2019, 03:16 AM   #73
Checkmite
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
This has been said a couple times. In 2019, I guarantee you school doors lock automatically. I visit a number of schools every year for work. High income, low income across many states, and every door locks automatically when it closes.

Only the doors at the main entrance are unlocked for any length of time during arrival and dismissal. So the guard cannot be there to stop the child from re-entering the building.
If you want to think so: in any case, he remains in the foyer and certainly at no point opens the outer door, or holds it open, to allow the child to re-enter the building. Six of one, half a dozen of the other really.
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Old 4th October 2019, 03:22 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The OP says he was forced out of the building and (get this) we only need one side of the story (the plaintiffs) to judge. The video unequivocally shows no physical forcing out of the building. But you and others can only interpret the story through the narrative. You simply can't see what is in front of your eyes. Instead, you jump on board this textbook conspiracy theory: the sadistic school personnel (and they seem to have quite a few) conspire to cruelly abuse a student on camera. Then they conspire to falsify reports with the police. And this was all to...why again? Just evil school workers, all getting together just this once to torture one kid once?
The kid was bodily pushed toward the doors. He then clearly hesitates and reluctantly exits while adults with confrontational body language prevent him from moving in any other direction. No credible alternative explanation of what takes place in the video exists.

Further, it has been reported that the school claimed to both police and his grandmother that the boy "ran out of the building", and you can only be deliberately lying if you try to claim that what the video shows is consistent with that description. It isn't theoretical that the school falsified their account of the incident; the video objectively shows it to be false.
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Last edited by Checkmite; 4th October 2019 at 03:23 AM.
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Old 4th October 2019, 04:38 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Two people accompany the child to the vestibule with a third person hanging back and watching. The watcher and the person in a dark top both turn back and head into the school, the man in the red shirt does not and is still in the vestibule when the video ends.
I was assuming given his utility belt the man in black is the security guard.
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Last edited by Darat; 4th October 2019 at 04:40 AM. Reason: Damn autocorrdct
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Old 4th October 2019, 06:07 AM   #76
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I was assuming given his utility belt the man in black is the security guard.
What man in black? What utility belt?
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Old 4th October 2019, 06:37 AM   #77
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Sorry woman.
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Old 4th October 2019, 06:45 AM   #78
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Sorry woman.
Harsh.
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Old 4th October 2019, 06:46 AM   #79
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Sorry woman.
What utility belt?
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Old 4th October 2019, 06:52 AM   #80
Cavemonster
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I was assuming given his utility belt the man in black is the security guard.
I'm less concerned about who is technically the security guard. The point was that there was a staff member who did not go back into the building.
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