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Old 4th October 2019, 06:57 AM   #81
elgarak
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
We know we can't believe everything the school says. I also don't believe everything the kid and his family say.

And we will never get the whole story, only what the kid's lawyers want to tell us.
Sure.

But the school is (should be) staffed by professionals, and must therefore be held to a higher standard. Safety of the children is the top priority; the kid should never have been left outside at all (not even supervised); the statements of school staff and videos should never leave any doubt that the staff acted responsibly and professionally, or falsified anything.

The kid is just a kid. Elementary school age. He's the weak link in all this, and should get a trust bonus just because of that.
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Old 4th October 2019, 07:01 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The kid was bodily pushed toward the doors.
Highly debatable

Quote:
He then clearly hesitates and reluctantly exits while adults with confrontational body language prevent him from moving in any other direction.
Or, just as plausibly, are stopping the active confrontation and deciding not to tackle him or restrain him further. Also, the video is noticeably slowed when he reaches the door. Play it at full speed and the kid's hesitation is simply putting his weight on the door to open it. He's small, and steel doors are heavy.

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No credible alternative explanation of what takes place in the video exists.
Sure there is. The school's explanation. With a little sugar coating in either direction, the video supports both versions. The truth of the matter is likely somewhere in between. You know, for those of us who prefer to hear both sides of an argument.

Quote:
Further, it has been reported that the school claimed to both police and his grandmother that the boy "ran out of the building", and you can only be deliberately lying if you try to claim that what the video shows is consistent with that description. It isn't theoretical that the school falsified their account of the incident; the video objectively shows it to be false.
Oh, I see. We are going to get pedantic about 'ran out'? Yes then, you could argue that to 'run out' necessitates a sprint with a double flying kick to open the doors. In common speech, 'ran out' might be a little exaggerated, but not substantially different from 'took off'.
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Old 4th October 2019, 07:13 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What utility belt?
From my squinting it looks as if there is something attached to her belt on her left side.
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Old 4th October 2019, 07:16 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Harsh.
Sadly that was more my bias showing through than an insult at the woman.
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Old 4th October 2019, 09:47 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Highly debatable

No, plainly visible in the video posted in post 4 (0:07-0:10). Did you not look at that one; is that the issue here? Or are you going with my earlier facetious interpretation that the child must have been walking backward and forcibly dragging the adult?
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Old 4th October 2019, 09:59 AM   #86
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When will this child be speaking at the UN?
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Old 4th October 2019, 10:02 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
From my squinting it looks as if there is something attached to her belt on her left side.
That's her hand placed on her hip.
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Old 4th October 2019, 10:30 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
No, plainly visible in the video posted in post 4 (0:07-0:10). Did you not look at that one; is that the issue here?
That's the one, but of course I enlarged it from the embedded version to see more clearly what is going on. I think it could be either.

Quote:
Or are you going with my earlier facetious interpretation that the child must have been walking backward and forcibly dragging the adult?
I stand by my posts. A kid sometimes throws their body weight around to escape. You seem to think the kid would consider the maximum efficiency in movement, and move in no other way. We can add that to the conspiracy theory of sadists in the school. How many conspirators are we up to, now? Easy half dozen, right?
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Old 4th October 2019, 12:11 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Oh, I see. We are going to get pedantic about 'ran out'?
...you say, after being openly pedantic about "forced" because the guard wasn't physically touching him at the moment the boy went through the doors, despite the fact that the guard is shown on video physically pushing him toward them and then blocking the boy's way to move in any other direction but out through the doors. Yes, I'm sure the guard shoved the boy into the entrance alcove because he just wanted him to stand there and have a pointless staring contest for a few minutes. Or wait, I've got another one - the guard just wanted to lecture him about his behavior, and the acoustics are much better for speechifying in the alcove than they are in the office or the hallway! He just wanted the child to stand in front of the doors so he could hear better.

No matter; you've proven once again that all you plan to engage in here is more of the same bad-faith contrarianism that is the signature of nearly all of your discussions here. Not interested this time, I'm afraid. Good luck to you.
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Old 4th October 2019, 12:14 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by elgarak View Post
Sure.

But the school is (should be) staffed by professionals, and must therefore be held to a higher standard. Safety of the children is the top priority; the kid should never have been left outside at all (not even supervised); the statements of school staff and videos should never leave any doubt that the staff acted responsibly and professionally, or falsified anything.
That is exactly the point. The school's reasons for putting him outside don't matter next to the fact that he was left outside without a coat in weather that it's dangerous for an adult to be exposed in for a length of time, let alone a young child.
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Old 4th October 2019, 04:24 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Here is the video, for those who don't want to run the ad-gauntlet:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
I suggest people watch the start of this video again. There is no doubt that the kid was forced out. The kid is walking backwards with physical contact with another person. If the kid was leaving because he wanted to leave there would be no physical contact and the kid would be walking forwards.
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Old 4th October 2019, 06:56 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I suggest people watch the start of this video again. There is no doubt that the kid was forced out. The kid is walking backwards with physical contact with another person. If the kid was leaving because he wanted to leave there would be no physical contact and the kid would be walking forwards.
I think you are misunderstanding. No one is raising the argument that red shirt is not 'escorting' the lad. No one at all. Anywhere.

The school says the boy was biting, kicking, etc. When faced with a kid doing this, you physically escort him away from the trouble area, in this case, stage right behind the block wall. The kid would naturally be walking backwards as he fought to get away.

The hitch comes when they get by the doors, and black shirt steps in the way. What I am suggesting is that the kid breaks away from red shirt, turns to his left, and heads for the doors. From the camera vantage point, it is hard to tell if he is breaking away from red shirt, or if red is pushing him in that direction. Red shirt stops moving, puts his hands on his hips, and he and the other adults stand there, perhaps thinking they should not rush at him any more (possibly slamming him into the door). The kid crosses the six or so feet to the doors and exits through them.

Now, removing the one-sided OP narrative, is this a plausible reading of the video? None of this nonsense about him facing the wrong direction, because he is facing exactly as would be expected if he was being 'escorted' down the hall against his will (the school says he was being violent to others and naturally needed to be moved away). What I am proposing is that he was being manhandled down the hall, but not out the doors.
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Old 4th October 2019, 07:01 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
No matter; you've proven once again that all you plan to engage in here is more of the same bad-faith contrarianism that is the signature of nearly all of your discussions here. Not interested this time, I'm afraid. Good luck to you.
And as usual, you consider anyone questioning your twitter-clone narrative to be arguing in bad-faith contrarianism. Tip for you, brah: if you demand agreement with your thread narratives, and character assassinate dissenters, maybe you should post on a nice echo chamber on twitter.
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Old 4th October 2019, 08:09 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I think you are misunderstanding. No one is raising the argument that red shirt is not 'escorting' the lad. No one at all. Anywhere.

The school says the boy was biting, kicking, etc. When faced with a kid doing this, you physically escort him away from the trouble area, in this case, stage right behind the block wall. The kid would naturally be walking backwards as he fought to get away.

The hitch comes when they get by the doors, and black shirt steps in the way. What I am suggesting is that the kid breaks away from red shirt, turns to his left, and heads for the doors. From the camera vantage point, it is hard to tell if he is breaking away from red shirt, or if red is pushing him in that direction. Red shirt stops moving, puts his hands on his hips, and he and the other adults stand there, perhaps thinking they should not rush at him any more (possibly slamming him into the door). The kid crosses the six or so feet to the doors and exits through them.

Now, removing the one-sided OP narrative, is this a plausible reading of the video? None of this nonsense about him facing the wrong direction, because he is facing exactly as would be expected if he was being 'escorted' down the hall against his will (the school says he was being violent to others and naturally needed to be moved away). What I am proposing is that he was being manhandled down the hall, but not out the doors.
He was escorted to the doors. If all what they doing were trying to restrain him, put him in an empty classroom. The only valid reason for escorting him to the door is if they wanted him to go though it. I also see that they made no effort to stop him going though the doors. If they did not want him to go though the doors they could easily have stopped him.

Maybe the kid did want to get away from the red shirt (as you suggest) so going though the door was a reasonable thing to do for him. But that is exactly what it appears the red shirt wants him to do. So the discussion over what happened in the last few seconds before the kid touched the door is not important. What is important is that the red shirt forcibly escorted the kid to the door.
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Old 4th October 2019, 08:16 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
He was escorted to the doors. If all what they doing were trying to restrain him, put him in an empty classroom. The only valid reason for escorting him to the door is if they wanted him to go though it. I also see that they made no effort to stop him going though the doors. If they did not want him to go though the doors they could easily have stopped him.

Maybe the kid did want to get away from the red shirt (as you suggest) so going though the door was a reasonable thing to do for him. But that is exactly what it appears the red shirt wants him to do. So the discussion over what happened in the last few seconds before the kid touched the door is not important. What is important is that the red shirt forcibly escorted the kid to the door.
They were moving him to the foyer, my guess would be to be in a smaller, controllable area in view of the security guard sitting down.
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Old 4th October 2019, 08:26 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
He was escorted to the doors. If all what they doing were trying to restrain him, put him in an empty classroom. The only valid reason for escorting him to the door is if they wanted him to go though it. I also see that they made no effort to stop him going though the doors. If they did not want him to go though the doors they could easily have stopped him.

Maybe the kid did want to get away from the red shirt (as you suggest) so going though the door was a reasonable thing to do for him. But that is exactly what it appears the red shirt wants him to do. So the discussion over what happened in the last few seconds before the kid touched the door is not important. What is important is that the red shirt forcibly escorted the kid to the door.
Tend to agree watching the long video again.
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Old 4th October 2019, 08:30 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
They were moving him to the foyer, my guess would be to be in a smaller, controllable area in view of the security guard sitting down.
Except both the adults are blocking him getting back into the foyer at the end and there are no seats to sit.
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Old 4th October 2019, 08:31 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
He was escorted to the doors. If all what they doing were trying to restrain him, put him in an empty classroom. The only valid reason for escorting him to the door is if they wanted him to go though it. I also see that they made no effort to stop him going though the doors. If they did not want him to go though the doors they could easily have stopped him.
This is our break, I think. I am looking at it as red shirt is pulling the kid away from the conflict area at stage right, not specifically towards the doors. The place where the kid was allegedly fighting might only be a few feet away, right around the block wall where they come into view.

Please try to picture what I am proposing: red shirt grabs the kid and guides him a few feet away from the trouble area, not specifically to the doors. He may have gone in this direction because there were more people in the other direction, and he was pushing the kid to the nearest area where no other people were. The kid sees the doors to his left and bee lines for them. Is this not a simple interpretation?

Quote:
Maybe the kid did want to get away from the red shirt (as you suggest) so going though the door was a reasonable thing to do for him. But that is exactly what it appears the red shirt wants him to do. So the discussion over what happened in the last few seconds before the kid touched the door is not important. What is important is that the red shirt forcibly escorted the kid to the door.
This is an assumption based on the OP narrative. It may be the case, or it may be that red shirt was just bringing the resisting boy to the nearest area where the kid had no one else to hit.

Again, I am not saying this is what happened. Based on the competing narratives, I think the video supports both versions. The actual truth may have a measure of each. But I don't think the school are the conspiratorial demons they are being portrayed as by the plaintiffs. Who, of course, are trying to cop some coin out of this gig.
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Old 4th October 2019, 08:34 PM   #99
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Think I tend to agree with an earlier poster, in that we will never really know what actually happened.

Just get two exaggerated sides of the story.

And pick one
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Old 4th October 2019, 08:37 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Think I tend to agree with an earlier poster, in that we will never really know what actually happened.

Just get two exaggerated sides of the story.

And pick one
Or we could play skeptic and analyze both, and see if one appears more plausible.

Or just forget it and tilt a couple. Yeah, that's the one.
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Old 4th October 2019, 08:58 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Except both the adults are blocking him getting back into the foyer at the end and there are no seats to sit.
Or, they are looking out the window to see what he's doing. No telling how far he is from the door at that point and it is unlikely they are allowed to chase him. Again, I speak from personal experience in a case a lot like this.

I would be interested to hear the full story from all sides. Imagine the speculation if the video quality was poorer.
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Old 4th October 2019, 09:14 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Or, they are looking out the window to see what he's doing. No telling how far he is from the door at that point and it is unlikely they are allowed to chase him. Again, I speak from personal experience in a case a lot like this.

I would be interested to hear the full story from all sides. Imagine the speculation if the video quality was poorer.
Fair call

Bit up in the air to be honest and I admit I tended to the unlikely three adults working in education would be that bad simultaneously theory earlier in the thread.

Some jury somewhere will end up making a decision based on a dodgy edited video with no sound.

It will end up working out probably
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Old 4th October 2019, 10:54 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Or, they are looking out the window to see what he's doing. No telling how far he is from the door at that point and it is unlikely they are allowed to chase him.
Are they also not allowed to leave the door open and call to him to return to the school?

This still doesn't address the fact that, of all the places in the entire school they could have pushed this kid, they pushed him specifically toward a door, and then blocked his movement in any direction except through it.

There's also another tidbit worth noting, appearing at the end of the article linked in the OP:

Quote:
Sources said the district was first made aware of the allegations on Tuesday, and the security guard has since been removed from his position, and CPS is investigating the principal’s actions, as well as why district leadership was not previously notified of the incident.
It's puzzling that if the incident happened as the school alleges - the student was caught fighting and "ran out of the school" - that they would consider this serious enough to call the police about, but yet not important enough to make any mention of the incident to the district. I'm not an administrator and wouldn't know whether police-reported incidents need to be reported to the district office too as a matter of policy; but the fact that the district has opened an investigation into why this wasn't done certainly suggests that the district at least is under the impression that it should have been, and I'm willing to defer to their expertise about policies in these situations.

The most immediate plausible speculative explanation is CYA. Once it was learned the child had definitely left school grounds, there was no choice but to call the police of course - they couldn't deny that. However even if the school knew it had done something it wasn't supposed to have done, calling the police wouldn't be a problem because the police would not question the school's version of events. The district, on the other hand, sensitive to liability questions, might be keenly interested in "what went wrong" to create the incident and might proactively investigate the situation, which would put the school in a bad position; so, they decided to keep this particular misadventure out of the daily digest, as it were.
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Old 4th October 2019, 11:16 PM   #104
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Correction to the above: the child never left school grounds

Quote:
An officer arrived and found the boy, who’d sat down outside the school and cried after finding every door to the school was locked, Herbert said.
He sat down right outside the building. This seems to satisfactorily rebut the notion that he was never stopped or brought back into the building because there were limits on "how far" they could "chase" him - he didn't go anywhere.
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Old 5th October 2019, 12:01 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This is our break, I think. I am looking at it as red shirt is pulling the kid away from the conflict area at stage right, not specifically towards the doors. The place where the kid was allegedly fighting might only be a few feet away, right around the block wall where they come into view.

Please try to picture what I am proposing: red shirt grabs the kid and guides him a few feet away from the trouble area, not specifically to the doors. He may have gone in this direction because there were more people in the other direction, and he was pushing the kid to the nearest area where no other people were. The kid sees the doors to his left and bee lines for them. Is this not a simple interpretation?



This is an assumption based on the OP narrative. It may be the case, or it may be that red shirt was just bringing the resisting boy to the nearest area where the kid had no one else to hit.

Again, I am not saying this is what happened. Based on the competing narratives, I think the video supports both versions. The actual truth may have a measure of each. But I don't think the school are the conspiratorial demons they are being portrayed as by the plaintiffs. Who, of course, are trying to cop some coin out of this gig.
not specifically to the doors. This statement is factually incorrect. The red shirt man and boy went very close to the corner and the boy had no choice but to go towards the door. Before the boy moved away from the red shirt they were passed the stairs (edit and half way between the corner and the door). The boy was then released and had two choices.
1. Make no move.
2. Exit via the door.

He did not have the option of going into the corridor where the CCTV was located.


Please watch the video again and you will see I am right.

NB: Checkmite's post above supports the kid's case. The school needs to explain why they did not try to find the kid. This would have been easy.
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Old 5th October 2019, 06:52 AM   #106
Thermal
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
not specifically to the doors. This statement is factually incorrect. The red shirt man and boy went very close to the corner and the boy had no choice but to go towards the door. Before the boy moved away from the red shirt they were passed the stairs (edit and half way between the corner and the door). The boy was then released and had two choices.
1. Make no move.
2. Exit via the door.

He did not have the option of going into the corridor where the CCTV was located.


Please watch the video again and you will see I am right.

NB: Checkmite's post above supports the kid's case. The school needs to explain why they did not try to find the kid. This would have been easy.
Why did the kid need to go anywhere?

Think about it. By presenting the only option was for him to exit via the door, you carry the starting assumption that he had to escape. Why?

If, as the school alleges, he was being separated from fighting, then he would be expected to simply calm down for a minute away from the other fighter. Going to his corner, as a boxer would say.

Why do you assume he had to make some kind of break for it? Oddly enough, you are arguing the school's POV, that he was being unruly and non-compliant if making a break for it was even an option.

eta: forgot, re Checkmite's post. Do you think he could leave the grounds and return? Do you think he could hang around in a place not visible from the front office?

More to the point: this school obviously has CCTV, right? The plaintiffs allege that the boy tried all the other doors to the school to regain entry. Why don't we see video of the boy being denied entrance at the main door? Surely that would be far more damning video evidence for the plaintiffs to publicly parade? Seeing a small boy being denied entrance, out in the cold with no jacket? Surely that would be more gut wrenching video for the plaintiffs to release?

I think we don't see it because it doesn't exist.
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Old 5th October 2019, 07:59 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Why did the kid need to go anywhere?

Think about it. By presenting the only option was for him to exit via the door, you carry the starting assumption that he had to escape. Why?
If you've been forced to the doors of the building and the person who pushed you there is standing between you and the rest of the building, do you think you're supposed to stand there and cool down? Who the hell tries to use a building exit as a place to 'separate fighters' rather than SEPARATE ROOMS? The boy's already been 'separated' from his attackers by putting him in the office. If you're going to say that taking the attackers to the office will result in no more separation, then the solution is simple: send him back to class. Boom, 'separation'.
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Old 5th October 2019, 09:06 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
If you've been forced to the doors of the building and the person who pushed you there is standing between you and the rest of the building, do you think you're supposed to stand there and cool down? Who the hell tries to use a building exit as a place to 'separate fighters' rather than SEPARATE ROOMS? The boy's already been 'separated' from his attackers by putting him in the office. If you're going to say that taking the attackers to the office will result in no more separation, then the solution is simple: send him back to class. Boom, 'separation'.
Put an upset and fighting student back into a classroom before he cools off? You're not around kids much, are you?

And he wasn't taken to the doors. He was taken to the common area. He had to walk about six feet to get over to the doors.
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Old 5th October 2019, 12:12 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Put an upset and fighting student back into a classroom before he cools off? You're not around kids much, are you?



And he wasn't taken to the doors. He was taken to the common area. He had to walk about six feet to get over to the doors.
How do you know he was fighting, there is nothing in the video that shows he was fighting.
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Old 5th October 2019, 12:16 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How do you know he was fighting, there is nothing in the video that shows he was fighting.
Not the video. The actual text said the school claims he was fighting minutes before
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Old 5th October 2019, 12:29 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not the video. The actual text said the school claims he was fighting minutes before
And you know that to be the truth?
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Old 5th October 2019, 12:35 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And you know that to be the truth?
As well as we know the plaintiffs allegations to be the truth

Actually, the plaintiffs acknowledge the boy was just involved in a fight. So no, I see no reson to contest it in generalities
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Old 5th October 2019, 12:44 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
As well as we know the plaintiffs allegations to be the truth

Actually, the plaintiffs acknowledge the boy was just involved in a fight. So no, I see no reson to contest it in generalities
Thought so.
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Old 5th October 2019, 05:33 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Put an upset and fighting student back into a classroom before he cools off? You're not around kids much, are you?

And he wasn't taken to the doors. He was taken to the common area. He had to walk about six feet to get over to the doors.
That is the trouble. He should not have been taken anywhere near an exit door he could use. Worse when he did go towards the door there was no effort made to stop him. Even the best interpretation of the video is very bad for the school.
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Old 5th October 2019, 07:43 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
That is the trouble. He should not have been taken anywhere near an exit door he could use. Worse when he did go towards the door there was no effort made to stop him. Even the best interpretation of the video is very bad for the school.
Agreed, the school has no halo on here. But neither do they have the bloody fangs they are portrayed as having, violently throwing the boy into a snowbank like George and Clarence in Martini's Bar
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Old 5th October 2019, 11:49 PM   #116
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The school never says that he was fighting adults, only children. Once they took him to the office there weren't children to fight, so why would they need to take him to the doors?
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Old 6th October 2019, 06:10 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
The school never says that he was fighting adults, only children. Once they took him to the office there weren't children to fight, so why would they need to take him to the doors?
In my school, the office was on the other side of the building.
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Old 6th October 2019, 07:10 AM   #118
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How?

Hmm....

If the school councilor's job is to help students get ahead in life and pass school with ease then isn't it ironic the he looked on as the student was shoved forcibly outside?

It looks like the kid is going to remember the imbecile who he thought he could go to for help.

That's what they taught us...
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Old 6th October 2019, 04:00 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
As well as we know the plaintiffs allegations to be the truth

Actually, the plaintiffs acknowledge the boy was just involved in a fight. So no, I see no reason to contest it in generalities

I like your reasoning with this case, but the family (or lawyer) may be changing their tune on the fighting thing...

https://www.wthr.com/article/family-...t-outside-cold

Quote:
"They said he was biting, scratching and kicking other kids — that didn't happen," attorney Dan Herbert told NBC Chicago. "He was thrown out into the cold with a polo shirt on for 30 minutes."

Attorneys said police found the boy outside "terrified and crying." When asked, police could not immediately find record of the incident.

The boy's family claims he was treated poorly after continuous complaints about being bullied. According to the lawsuit, the boy had been the victim of bullying for months after he transferred from an Indiana school where he had no issues and made good grades.

The family said when they reported the bullying to the school, school officials were "annoyed with the 9-year-old for not 'fitting in better.'"

Family attorneys said the school liked[sic] about the boy being violent, saying, "The worst thing about this case is the cover-up."
Well what else would a lawyer say? But if there is a record of complaints and the school had this negative reaction, well we may be arguing about the video when that's only the tip of the iceberg.
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Old 7th October 2019, 07:13 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I like your reasoning with this case, but the family (or lawyer) may be changing their tune on the fighting thing...

https://www.wthr.com/article/family-...t-outside-cold



Well what else would a lawyer say? But if there is a record of complaints and the school had this negative reaction, well we may be arguing about the video when that's only the tip of the iceberg.
We can use Thermal's logic. If they have video of the boy being pushed outside then they must have video of the kid in a fight with another student. Surely that video would be much more supportive of their case than the current video.

I think we don't see it because it doesn't exist. /skeptic
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