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Old 2nd October 2019, 07:01 PM   #1
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New high school designed with places to hide from mass shooters

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This Michigan High School Is Being Built To Deter Active Shooters | NBC Nightly News

The school in Fruitport, Michigan is specifically designed for safety -- with short lockers in a common area as opposed to lockers in the hallways, so that teachers can see 900 students at once. The security features also include curved walls and a special locking system.
They say all new schools in America are probably going to be designed with mass shootings in mind. The video includes an interview with the architect doing a walk-through with a reporter, showing the features of the new school.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 07:10 PM   #2
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There's a MUCH easier and cheaper way to deal with school shootings: Don't have them in the first place. But that would require common sense and the courage to make one little change. So it's much better to spend billions preparing for the awful results of not doing that.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 07:11 PM   #3
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What a sad commentary on American society.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 07:54 PM   #4
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Then there's things like this:
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Old 2nd October 2019, 07:58 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
What a sad commentary on American society.
But, but but...... Americans have “freedoms” that the rest of the world does not!
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Old 2nd October 2019, 08:03 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Then there's things like this:
For a bullet to be crushed to the extent shown on the advert would require some very heavy hitting power. Probably enough to throw the poor kid wearing the shield dangerously across the room if it hit his backpack. Like hitting them with a big sledgehammer. Good outcome!
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Old 2nd October 2019, 08:04 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
But, but but...... Americans have “freedoms” that the rest of the world does not!
Freedom to kill themselves in droves rather than having invading terrorists do it. From outside, this totally defines "Pyrrhic victory".
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Old 2nd October 2019, 08:11 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
For a bullet to be crushed to the extent shown on the advert would require some very heavy hitting power. Probably enough to throw the poor kid wearing the shield dangerously across the room if it hit his backpack. Like hitting them with a big sledgehammer. Good outcome!
Well, probably better than the alternative, but my thought was: backpacks are already heavy as it is, when they're full of books. This adds even more weight to it, for an event that will probably never happen and even if it does happen, the likelihood that that bulletproof backpack insert will actually be what makes a difference between getting shot or not seems kinda low in any case. But you have to carry it every day since you never know when it will happen.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 08:23 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
For a bullet to be crushed to the extent shown on the advert would require some very heavy hitting power. Probably enough to throw the poor kid wearing the shield dangerously across the room if it hit his backpack. Like hitting them with a big sledgehammer. Good outcome!
No.

Here is a demonstration video showing a shot to a guy wearing a ballistic vest. He spreads his feet a bit as a kind of brace but you can see that he wouldn't have been knocked down and certainly not thrown even if he hadn't braced.

There are more demonstration videos like this on the web.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 08:27 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
For a bullet to be crushed to the extent shown on the advert would require some very heavy hitting power. Probably enough to throw the poor kid wearing the shield dangerously across the room if it hit his backpack. Like hitting them with a big sledgehammer. Good outcome!

No. Bullets do not throw people across rooms except in Hollywood movies. I'm sure there are plenty of threads here about this.

Yes this talk of schools is very sad. Ridiculous.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 11:09 PM   #11
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Ignoring for a minute how stupid it is the America is being forced to do this.

This is obviously just new ones.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to make all schools have metal detectors at the entrances?

Quite a few rougher one do already don't they?
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Old 2nd October 2019, 11:19 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
For a bullet to be crushed to the extent shown on the advert would require some very heavy hitting power. Probably enough to throw the poor kid wearing the shield dangerously across the room if it hit his backpack. Like hitting them with a big sledgehammer. Good outcome!
If the kid was hit by an RPG, maybe. I doubt ballistic vest would help him much in that case. Third Newton's law is a hard master.

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Old 3rd October 2019, 01:51 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
But, but but...... Americans have “freedoms” that the rest of the world does not!
Well, unless they're getting on a plane.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 03:22 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
For a bullet to be crushed to the extent shown on the advert would require some very heavy hitting power. Probably enough to throw the poor kid wearing the shield dangerously across the room if it hit his backpack. Like hitting them with a big sledgehammer. Good outcome!
Nonsense, bullets just don't have the momentum for that kind of effect.

Of course it also assumes pistol caliber assaults instead of the more common rifle caliber assault it would likely be of little to no use for.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 03:32 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
What a sad commentary on American society.
Yeah it's the wrong solution to this problem.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 04:36 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah it's the wrong solution to this problem.
The correct solution being to ensure that all students and teachers are armed to the teeth so as to ensure that there are plenty of good guys with guns to counter the bad guy
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Old 3rd October 2019, 06:57 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
For a bullet to be crushed to the extent shown on the advert would require some very heavy hitting power. Probably enough to throw the poor kid wearing the shield dangerously across the room if it hit his backpack. Like hitting them with a big sledgehammer. Good outcome!
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
No.

Here is a demonstration video showing a shot to a guy wearing a ballistic vest. He spreads his feet a bit as a kind of brace but you can see that he wouldn't have been knocked down and certainly not thrown even if he hadn't braced.

There are more demonstration videos like this on the web.
But an 8-year-old girl will have about 1/3 the mass of an adult man such as the one in the video. And in an active shoot situation in a school, the average 8-year-old girl will not have the presence of mind and the time necessary to brace in that manner. In addition, the guy was shot in the stomach and was prepared; the girl would be shot in the back (if she were wearing it on her back) and unprepared. While I would not say “thrown across the room” I would say knocked off her feet. And she’d likely have the wind knocked out of her (depending on the precise location of the hit).

Or to imagine it another way, if the pistol were strapped the back of a 25kg girl back with the barrel pointing away from her, and if the firearm were triggered remotely and with no warning, then what would happen. Again, while I would not say “thrown across the room” I would say knocked off her feet.

But I’m opened minded enough to listen to alternative explanations and change my mind if the evidence indicates I am wrong.1

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(1) Man, oh Manishewitz . One sure gets a wide range of responses when one adds that line to posts on political boards very unlike this this forum.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 07:00 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Then there's things like this:
Whoever buys this doesn't love their kid enough. IIIA isn't rifle proof, and we know that little jimmy is bringing the big guns when he does on his murder-suicide spree.

Good parents spring for Kevlar plates.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 07:29 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
<...>

Good parents spring for Kevlar plates.

I see you're one of those librul snowflakes who doesn't think little Billy deserves the right to return fire. Send him to school in something truly empowering :

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Old 3rd October 2019, 07:41 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
What a sad commentary on American society.
It is, much like our reaction to 9/11, we tragically over react to negligible risks while ignoring real risks.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 08:08 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
But an 8-year-old girl will have about 1/3 the mass of an adult man such as the one in the video. And in an active shoot situation in a school, the average 8-year-old girl will not have the presence of mind and the time necessary to brace in that manner. In addition, the guy was shot in the stomach and was prepared; the girl would be shot in the back (if she were wearing it on her back) and unprepared. While I would not say “thrown across the room” I would say knocked off her feet. And she’d likely have the wind knocked out of her (depending on the precise location of the hit).

Or to imagine it another way, if the pistol were strapped the back of a 25kg girl back with the barrel pointing away from her, and if the firearm were triggered remotely and with no warning, then what would happen. Again, while I would not say “thrown across the room” I would say knocked off her feet.

But I’m opened minded enough to listen to alternative explanations and change my mind if the evidence indicates I am wrong.1

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(1) Man, oh Manishewitz . One sure gets a wide range of responses when one adds that line to posts on political boards very unlike this this forum.
We can see from the video that he would not have fallen even if he hadn't spread his feet a bit. There appears to be no recoil of the upper body at all.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 08:19 AM   #22
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Another demonstration with a vest supported by thin strips of wood. The recoil is surprisingly minimal.

Go to 7:50 for this demonstration.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 12:13 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
I see you're one of those librul snowflakes who doesn't think little Billy deserves the right to return fire. Send him to school in something truly empowering :

And if he were in that, he would have the advantage of being unseen by the shooter.
(Obscure Battletech joke)
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Old 3rd October 2019, 12:28 PM   #24
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What you need is more personal body armour.

I suggest something like this kids could wear.

They could paint them their favourite sports team colours

Subtle, yet exude safety

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Old 3rd October 2019, 12:29 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
There's a MUCH easier and cheaper way to deal with school shootings: Don't have them in the first place. But that would require common sense and the courage to make one little change. So it's much better to spend billions preparing for the awful results of not doing that.
And what is that little change?
If you are talking banning or severe restrictions amounting to a ban on gun ownership, that is simply not going to happen.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 12:30 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
It is, much like our reaction to 9/11, we tragically over react to negligible risks while ignoring real risks.
By that reasoning, we overeacted to Pearl Harbor as well...
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Old 3rd October 2019, 12:32 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And what is that little change?
If you are talking banning or severe restrictions amounting to a ban on gun ownership, that is simply not going to happen.
If you can't stop the people owning massacre friendly guns, the only option left is doing the best you can to stop any guns getting onto school property.

Airport screening to get into the departure area before boarding is extremely good at this

Copy it.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 12:40 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
By that reasoning, we overeacted to Pearl Harbor as well...
Well yes locking up US citizens en mass was an over reaction.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 12:41 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And what is that little change?
If you are talking banning or severe restrictions amounting to a ban on gun ownership, that is simply not going to happen.
Yep political statements like that is clearly what the second amendment is for, we have a constitutional right to mass murder in the name of politics.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 01:00 PM   #30
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Just goes to show that one society's normality, can look to another society like outright insanity.

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Old 3rd October 2019, 01:45 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
By that reasoning, we overeacted to Pearl Harbor as well...
We did, we locked up a bunch of Americans because they were related to folks who attacked us. Other than that, we only attacked the countries that either attacked us or declared war on us. 9/11, we attacked two countries that didn't actually attack us, congress passed a law that essentially gave the president authorization of unending war and the Patriot act.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 02:47 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
They say all new schools in America are probably going to be designed with mass shootings in mind. The video includes an interview with the architect doing a walk-through with a reporter, showing the features of the new school.


That is truly brilliant. (see my sig)
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Old 3rd October 2019, 04:14 PM   #33
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What is wrong with you people?

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Old 3rd October 2019, 04:27 PM   #34
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Other than the locking system I don't see anything new in that school design. The few other design features don't seem to be unique to school designs intended to deter mass shooters.

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Old 3rd October 2019, 04:49 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
But an 8-year-old girl will have about 1/3 the mass of an adult man such as the one in the video. And in an active shoot situation in a school, the average 8-year-old girl will not have the presence of mind and the time necessary to brace in that manner. In addition, the guy was shot in the stomach and was prepared; the girl would be shot in the back (if she were wearing it on her back) and unprepared. While I would not say “thrown across the room” I would say knocked off her feet. And she’d likely have the wind knocked out of her (depending on the precise location of the hit).

Or to imagine it another way, if the pistol were strapped the back of a 25kg girl back with the barrel pointing away from her, and if the firearm were triggered remotely and with no warning, then what would happen. Again, while I would not say “thrown across the room” I would say knocked off her feet.

But I’m opened minded enough to listen to alternative explanations and change my mind if the evidence indicates I am wrong.1

_______
(1) Man, oh Manishewitz . One sure gets a wide range of responses when one adds that line to posts on political boards very unlike this this forum.
You can imagine it however you like but the answer is still no, a bullet will not fling even a little girl across the room. Not even an infant. I've shot targets that weigh much less and they don't move much, if at all, when shot.

Try this if you can do so safely - take an 80 pound bag of cement, stand it upright, then wrap it in bullet proof armor and shoot it with the biggest caliber gun you can find. The bag is going nowhere.

Your scenario wouldn't knock her "off her feet" either, which is also moving the goalposts.

Possibly the most overused movie trope ever.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 05:01 PM   #36
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We are seeing mass shooters with ballistic vests. I don't know if this is increasing or not. Anyway, an armed school security officer is probably trained to aim at "center mass" as is usual. Is this non-productive if the attacker is wearing a vest? Are officers trained to do things differently if they believe the attacker is protected by a ballistic vest?
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Old 3rd October 2019, 07:32 PM   #37
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Other soft targets, such as office buildings, are being designed and built with strength and security in mind. Why not build our schools (or churches, shopping malls, restaurants etc for that matter) to be resistant to this form of terrorism?
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Old 3rd October 2019, 08:30 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Whoever buys this doesn't love their kid enough. IIIA isn't rifle proof, and we know that little jimmy is bringing the big guns when he does on his murder-suicide spree.

Good parents spring for Kevlar plates.
So it wouldn't stop an AR-15 bullet?
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Old 3rd October 2019, 08:43 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
If you can't stop the people owning massacre friendly guns, the only option left is doing the best you can to stop any guns getting onto school property.

Airport screening to get into the departure area before boarding is extremely good at this

Copy it.
Cost prohibitive. Essentially you would need a TSA-style screening area, with all that equipment. (Also, it seems that TSA-style screening is not as effective as you might imagine).

ETA: There are 503 airports in the US that serve commercial flights (as well as many more that don't serve commercial flights, and hence probably don't require TSA security screening). But there are almost 100,000 schools. TSA spends a budget of over $5 billion annually to provide security at those 503 airports that serve commercial flights. How much would it cost to reproduce that at every school?
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Last edited by Puppycow; 3rd October 2019 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 09:44 PM   #40
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Move to Australia where there has never been a mass shooting at a school. And probably a few citizens of other countries can say the same thing.
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