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Old 3rd October 2019, 10:19 PM   #41
cullennz
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Cost prohibitive. Essentially you would need a TSA-style screening area, with all that equipment. (Also, it seems that TSA-style screening is not as effective as you might imagine).

ETA: There are 503 airports in the US that serve commercial flights (as well as many more that don't serve commercial flights, and hence probably don't require TSA security screening). But there are almost 100,000 schools. TSA spends a budget of over $5 billion annually to provide security at those 503 airports that serve commercial flights. How much would it cost to reproduce that at every school?
A vast amount

The worth of it is entirely dependent on what the kids lives are worth.

School shootings aren't going anywhere with the fixation with guns.
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 3rd October 2019, 11:06 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Move to Australia where there has never been a mass shooting at a school. And probably a few citizens of other countries can say the same thing.
There has been actually

6

Only 2 where any one died though. One person in '99 and 2 people in a 2012 one.

We have even had one.

In 1923, 96 years ago. 2 dead

Edit: Suppose it depends on what you use to define a mass shooting. From reading it can vary from numbers injured, to numbers dead etc depending on who is saying it.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 3rd October 2019 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 11:41 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
There has been actually

6

Only 2 where any one died though. One person in '99 and 2 people in a 2012 one.

We have even had one.

In 1923, 96 years ago. 2 dead

Edit: Suppose it depends on what you use to define a mass shooting. From reading it can vary from numbers injured, to numbers dead etc depending on who is saying it.
I could only find one reference to a shooting at a educational facility here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_in_Australia
And that was at a university, not a school. Two died and five injured.
If it is a mass killing in Australia then it is probable that the victims were related to the killer.
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Old 3rd October 2019, 11:46 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I could only find one reference to a shooting at a educational facility here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_in_Australia
And that was at a university, not a school. Two died and five injured.
If it is a mass killing in Australia then it is probable that the victims were related to the killer.


Was going by this, but touch and go given it is Wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Oceania

Article to our one in 1923

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12145161
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 3rd October 2019, 11:49 PM   #45
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Actually

My mistake

Was looking at "school shootings", not mass school shootings

One of those Aus ones was only 2 shot fired, which I doubt anyone, no matter their definition would class as mass
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 5th October 2019, 02:39 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Was going by this, but touch and go given it is Wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Oceania

Article to our one in 1923

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12145161
Interesting. All bar the NZ one and one other were done by students. Except for the NZ incident it does not appear they attempted to commit mass murder.
Conclusion- it is far safer in Australia than USA when looking at school shootings.
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Old 5th October 2019, 05:51 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Move to Australia where there has never been a mass shooting at a school. And probably a few citizens of other countries can say the same thing.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-...nchbox/9488074

Of course this happens in Australian schools too, so there are tradeoffs.
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Old 5th October 2019, 05:58 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE




They say all new schools in America are probably going to be designed with mass shootings in mind. The video includes an interview with the architect doing a walk-through with a reporter, showing the features of the new school.
A Columbine type situation would make this relatively ineffective
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Old 5th October 2019, 06:20 AM   #49
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https://www.shotstop.net/shop-ballis...pack%20Inserts

For an additional $150 you can get the insert that protects against high-powered rifle rounds. The video shows a guy shooting the insert with 5.56mm rounds from an AR-15.
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Old 5th October 2019, 05:36 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-...nchbox/9488074

Of course this happens in Australian schools too, so there are tradeoffs.
Except it was at home. Not the school. The mother was preparing the lunch.

Quote:
Adelaide snake catcher Rolly Burrell told ABC Radio Adelaide the Hahndorf mum was preparing her child's lunch on Monday when she found the deadly snake.
The snake also did not kill anyone. Not even close.
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Old 7th October 2019, 04:26 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
So it wouldn't stop an AR-15 bullet?
No. IIIA is the highest level of what is considered "concealable" armor. These armors are a dense fabric-like material and aren't rigid like armor plates. IIIA will handgun rounds up to .44 magnum, but the velocity of rifle rounds require hard armor plates.

NIJ ratings described below.

https://www.thefirestore.com/nijspec2.htm
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Old 10th October 2019, 03:52 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
If you can't stop the people owning massacre friendly guns, the only option left is doing the best you can to stop any guns getting onto school property.

Airport screening to get into the departure area before boarding is extremely good at this

Copy it.

Today, in the USA, 1.7 million (ish) people will get on planes.

56M (ish) will go to school.


Currently the TSA charge airports USD 5.60 / passenger. (I think they want to double that at the moment)

You'd only need to find another USD300M or so for the budget for that.

I think kids might need to start leaving earlier for school though, which might be tricky.
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Old 10th October 2019, 03:56 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
No. IIIA is the highest level of what is considered "concealable" armor. These armors are a dense fabric-like material and aren't rigid like armor plates. IIIA will handgun rounds up to .44 magnum, but the velocity of rifle rounds require hard armor plates.

NIJ ratings described below.

https://www.thefirestore.com/nijspec2.htm

Would it help at all? Or is it a sort of yes/no scenario?

How much power would the bullet lose penetrating the 'soft' armour?
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Old 10th October 2019, 03:56 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Today, in the USA, 1.7 million (ish) people will get on planes.

56M (ish) will go to school.


Currently the TSA charge airports USD 5.60 / passenger. (I think they want to double that at the moment)

You'd only need to find another USD300M or so for the budget for that.

I think kids might need to start leaving earlier for school though, which might be tricky.
Per day.
Per school day anyway.
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:00 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Per day.
Per school day anyway.
Thank you! I knew the number was too low.

Assuming 180 school days, a sip at about 56B USD / year

I don't think the proposer's thought this through.

Although perhaps it could be recovered through some sort of bullet tax?

How many round are fired annually in the US? How many cents per round would cover the 56B that would be needed to fund school security?





(Disclaimer, my maths may be wrong, y fingures are pulled from the internet)
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:05 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Today, in the USA, 1.7 million (ish) people will get on planes.

56M (ish) will go to school.


Currently the TSA charge airports USD 5.60 / passenger. (I think they want to double that at the moment)

You'd only need to find another USD300M or so for the budget for that.

I think kids might need to start leaving earlier for school though, which might be tricky.
Then if you don't want to pay that, don't moan about school shootings while not stopping guns getting into schools due to stupid gun law.
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:12 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Then if you don't want to pay that, don't moan about school shootings while not stopping guns getting into schools due to stupid gun law.
Whose moaning? I was checking your policy proposal for fiscal feasibility and then, just as an added bonus, I came up with a potential funding proposal. How do you feel about my funding proposal?
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:17 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Thank you! I knew the number was too low.

Assuming 180 school days, a sip at about 56B USD / year

I don't think the proposer's thought this through.

Although perhaps it could be recovered through some sort of bullet tax?

How many round are fired annually in the US? How many cents per round would cover the 56B that would be needed to fund school security?





(Disclaimer, my maths may be wrong, y fingures are pulled from the internet)
NRA would fight a bullet tax just as hard as a gun ban I'm afraid. They'd see it as a gun grab by another name. 50 billion is too much I think. Maybe attitudes will change over time and the NRA will lose its political potency, but that remains to be seen.
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:21 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
NRA would fight a bullet tax just as hard as a gun ban I'm afraid. They'd see it as a gun grab by another name.
Yeah, I kind of figured that. Is there any way to know how many rounds are expended each year? I know it's not viable but I'd be interested in how much the 'tax per round' would need to be to fund school security in the same way as airport security.


Quote:
50 billion is too much I think. Maybe attitudes will change over time and the NRA will lose its political potency, but that remains to be seen.
You think the value is wrong? Or that it's not affordable? The latter I'd agree with but, as it's based on what the TSA charge per passenger I think the calculated costs seem reasonably accurate?
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Old 11th October 2019, 04:45 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Yeah, I kind of figured that. Is there any way to know how many rounds are expended each year? I know it's not viable but I'd be interested in how much the 'tax per round' would need to be to fund school security in the same way as airport security.




You think the value is wrong? Or that it's not affordable? The latter I'd agree with but, as it's based on what the TSA charge per passenger I think the calculated costs seem reasonably accurate?
No, I meant too much as in not affordable. I think it's probably in the right ballpark though. I'm not sure how many bullets are sold.
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Old 11th October 2019, 05:36 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
No.

Here is a demonstration video showing a shot to a guy wearing a ballistic vest. He spreads his feet a bit as a kind of brace but you can see that he wouldn't have been knocked down and certainly not thrown even if he hadn't braced.

There are more demonstration videos like this on the web.
Assuming that the armor is capable of withstanding the bullet you are still liable to get bruises from blunt force trauma.

Of course that's preferable to sustaining potentially fatal internal injuries, but it might still hurt you.
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Old 11th October 2019, 06:44 AM   #62
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I really can't begin to explain how surreal it is to be discussing what level of ballistic protection gear is necessary for a 6 year old's safety when attending school, in the USA.
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Old 11th October 2019, 07:57 AM   #63
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I don't really understand the concept of some of these school shooting deterrents being built. You could make the school a literal fortress, but the kids still come out normally through a couple doors the same time of day, every day. Little Timmy might be crazy, but that doesn't mean he's impatient.
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Old 11th October 2019, 08:16 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I really can't begin to explain how surreal it is to be discussing what level of ballistic protection gear is necessary for a 6 year old's safety when attending school, in the USA.
This forum is only going to get more surreal.

Which is a good word for it. Don't assume that the discussion that happens here is a useful reflection of reality.
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Old 11th October 2019, 08:32 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I really can't begin to explain how surreal it is to be discussing what level of ballistic protection gear is necessary for a 6 year old's safety when attending school, in the USA.
The thing to realise is that American terrorists are much smarter than UK ones.
We are told that there is no point restricting gun access as terrorists will still get them.

Look how crap British terrorists are, they nearly all use knives. See today's example.

Given it can't be gun restrictions and access that stop ours using guns it must be they are just smarter, better educated in America.

The two birds, one stone solution. Get rid of schools, no school children will be shot if there are no school children.

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Old 11th October 2019, 09:11 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
I don't really understand the concept of some of these school shooting deterrents being built. You could make the school a literal fortress, but the kids still come out normally through a couple doors the same time of day, every day. Little Timmy might be crazy, but that doesn't mean he's impatient.
I may be just a humble hyperchicken from a backwoods asteroid, but it seems to me that a problem with making schools into fortresses is that if the villain is already inside it all those defensive measures will make it far more difficult to get them out. Are most of these incidents outside forces attacking inward, or an inside person attacking from within? Fortressing up is the least good thing to do in the latter case.
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Old 11th October 2019, 09:31 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I may be just a humble hyperchicken from a backwoods asteroid, but it seems to me that a problem with making schools into fortresses is that if the villain is already inside it all those defensive measures will make it far more difficult to get them out. Are most of these incidents outside forces attacking inward, or an inside person attacking from within? Fortressing up is the least good thing to do in the latter case.

That's been my thought. Cover is cover. For the more disciplined school shooter it makes it a much more interesting game too.
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Old 11th October 2019, 09:34 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This forum is only going to get more surreal.

Which is a good word for it. Don't assume that the discussion that happens here is a useful reflection of reality.
Yep
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Old 11th October 2019, 12:33 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I really can't begin to explain how surreal it is to be discussing what level of ballistic protection gear is necessary for a 6 year old's safety when attending school, in the USA.
But hey, it's so much better than the alternative of not having guns.

Why give up your gun when you can just send your kid to school in a kevlar burqa?
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