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Old 4th October 2019, 01:35 PM   #1
Cainkane1
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Describe a society without police oficers

They exist unfortunately but here in the U S A we have policemen and women. In my opinion, they, for the most part, do a good job. Catching criminals, enforcing the law and overall protecting our citizens often above and beyond the call of duty.

There are some bad cops. I've met a few. Dishonest, incompetent, etc but not the overwhelming majority of them.
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Old 4th October 2019, 01:55 PM   #2
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I guess strawmen would uphold the law then.
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Old 4th October 2019, 01:58 PM   #3
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I'm pretty sure police officers are like fiat currency: The first thing a society without them would do is invent them.
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Old 4th October 2019, 02:03 PM   #4
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Off topic but

The nation state with the most police per pop' is Vatican City.

15,500 odd per 100,000

Also have one of the highest crime rates in the world

God seems not to look out for them much
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Old 4th October 2019, 02:06 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Off topic but

The nation state with the most police per pop' is Vatican City.

15,500 odd per 100,000

Also have one of the highest crime rates in the world

God seems not to look out for them much
Urban areas often have a lot of crime.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 4th October 2019, 02:08 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm pretty sure police officers are like fiat currency: The first thing a society without them would do is invent them.
An anarchist acquaintance of mine explained that while there should be no police and no rules, there could be groups of people empowered to prevent anti-social behaviour. I remember him being asked if they would have special hats and badges to identify them.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 4th October 2019, 02:12 PM   #7
theprestige
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Off topic but

The nation state with the most police per pop' is Vatican City.

15,500 odd per 100,000

Also have one of the highest crime rates in the world

God seems not to look out for them much
It'd be nice to take a serious look at what's actually going on there, but it's the Vatican, so probably any attempt along those lines is just going to get smothered by atheist virtue signaling.
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Old 4th October 2019, 02:13 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
An anarchist acquaintance of mine explained that while there should be no police and no rules, there could be groups of people empowered to prevent anti-social behaviour. I remember him being asked if they would have special hats and badges to identify them.
Heh. My question is, in an anarchist society, who would be empowering these people?
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Old 4th October 2019, 02:14 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It'd be nice to take a serious look at what's actually going on there, but it's the Vatican, so probably any attempt along those lines is just going to get smothered by atheist virtue signaling.
A shed load of money laundering still I would imagine.

They have prior history
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Old 4th October 2019, 02:18 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Heh. My question is, in an anarchist society, who would be empowering these people?
A special representative group that knows best for the community. They might be chosen by the society or simply earned their place through a certain charisma.
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Old 4th October 2019, 02:20 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Off topic but

The nation state with the most police per pop' is Vatican City.

15,500 odd per 100,000

Also have one of the highest crime rates in the world

God seems not to look out for them much
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Vatican_City

Tourism is one of the principal sources of revenue in the economy of Vatican City. In 2007 about 4.3 million tourists visited the Vatican Museums alone.[3] Tourism is the main cause of the Vatican's unusually high crime rate: tourists are blamed for various minor thefts and incidents.

That many tourists require serious policing even in a .44 square km block. Plus how many of the police there are the ceremonial Swiss Guard. Quite a few I would bet.
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Old 4th October 2019, 02:21 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
A special representative group that knows best for the community. They might be chosen by the society or simply earned their place through a certain charisma.
That is the funny thing about anarchists. If you ask them details about how an anarchist society would work, they end up describing something that for all practical purposes is government, except they are careful not to call it that.
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Old 4th October 2019, 02:23 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Vatican_City

Tourism is one of the principal sources of revenue in the economy of Vatican City. In 2007 about 4.3 million tourists visited the Vatican Museums alone.[3] Tourism is the main cause of the Vatican's unusually high crime rate: tourists are blamed for various minor thefts and incidents.

That many tourists require serious policing even in a .44 square km block. Plus how many of the police there are the ceremonial Swiss Guard. Quite a few I would bet.
When I visited Rome, Vatican City was wall to wall tourists. I suspect policing the Tourist is pretty much the main job of the Vatican Police force.
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Old 4th October 2019, 02:25 PM   #14
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In some of the most crime-ridden areas of Mexico there might as well be no police patrolling town.

Civilians form their own police groups and even 'assassin' squads, formed specifically to combat the drug cartels. And of course we can look at other examples around the world.

That's what I imagine the first order of business in a police-less society to be.
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Old 4th October 2019, 02:44 PM   #15
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And I suspect the Crime in Vatican City are pretty much of the pickpocket and stolen tourist bags/purses petty theft variety.
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Old 4th October 2019, 02:51 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And I suspect the Crime in Vatican City are pretty much of the pickpocket and stolen tourist bags/purses petty theft variety.
Well, I wouldn’t be too sure about that being the only crime. I mean, we are talking about a country composed almost entirely or priests and altar boys. What could possibly go wrong?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 4th October 2019, 03:21 PM   #17
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And there it is.
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Old 4th October 2019, 03:31 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm pretty sure police officers are like fiat currency: The first thing a society without them would do is invent them.

Ya I mean we already invented them once. We'd simply do it again. Case closed.

Side note: The town my Dad lives in has no police dept. Next closest town is maybe 20 - 3o minutes away, also with no police.

They have Sheriffs that drive through maybe once a week and are available if there is a call, but their arrival could take a long time. So there is essentially nobody around if an incident should occur.
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Old 4th October 2019, 04:20 PM   #19
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Icelandic sagas describe a society without police officers. There were the equivalent of courts and judges, but actually determining and detaining the guilty party, and carrying out the sentence, was mostly up to the victim's relatives and allies.

They also do a pretty fair job of describing the consequences of this system: escalating feuds spreading through generations and sometimes wiping out extended families.
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Old 4th October 2019, 04:54 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
They exist unfortunately but here in the U S A we have policemen and women. In my opinion, they, for the most part, do a good job. Catching criminals, enforcing the law and overall protecting our citizens often above and beyond the call of duty.

There are some bad cops. I've met a few. Dishonest, incompetent, etc but not the overwhelming majority of them.
re: the highlighted,
wasn't there a court decision in the US that concluded the police had no obligation to protect the public?
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Old 4th October 2019, 05:23 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Icelandic sagas describe a society without police officers. There were the equivalent of courts and judges, but actually determining and detaining the guilty party, and carrying out the sentence, was mostly up to the victim's relatives and allies.

They also do a pretty fair job of describing the consequences of this system: escalating feuds spreading through generations and sometimes wiping out extended families.
I don’t think I’ve read a single of the sagas where the payee of blood money ever survives.
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Old 5th October 2019, 06:04 AM   #22
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Beyond village-sized societies, the need for some sort of law enforcement becomes apparent rapidly.
In the lack of organized law enforcement, vigilantism tends to become the norm. The problem with that is that generally “vigilance committees” tend to abrogate human rights.

The larger a society gets, the more “anonymity” the people experience, and the more opportunity for crime of various sorts. In small village societies where everyone knows everyone... Hard to get away with crime.
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Old 7th October 2019, 06:51 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Beyond village-sized societies, the need for some sort of law enforcement becomes apparent rapidly.
In the lack of organized law enforcement, vigilantism tends to become the norm. The problem with that is that generally “vigilance committees” tend to abrogate human rights.
Of course so do the police. Real conundrum that.
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Old 7th October 2019, 07:10 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Off topic but

The nation state with the most police per pop' is Vatican City.

15,500 odd per 100,000

Also have one of the highest crime rates in the world

God seems not to look out for them much
And that's not even counting all the child abuse!
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Old 7th October 2019, 07:12 AM   #25
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- Describe a society without police officers.
- They would have police officers, they wouldn't just call them that.
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Old 7th October 2019, 07:28 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
- Describe a society without police officers.
- They would have police officers, they wouldn't just call them that.
I'm not so sure. The old Icelandic model seems substantially different from my "the first thing they'd do is invent some" hypothesis.

But probably every community has to fill the policing role somehow.

That role being mostly -
- protect the citizens and their property
- discover the perpetrator of a crime
- seek out the perpetrator and bring them before the magistrate
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Old 7th October 2019, 07:33 AM   #27
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Gotta love this strawman that gets trotted out anytime there are calls for police reform. It's the "how would you like it if we took our ball and went home" of political discourse. The police are often threatening to stop enforcing the law if they aren't allowed wide latitude to violate civil rights.

Society needs policing for the obvious reasons. Criticisms of the police are not repudiations of the entire endeavor, but rather recognition of systematic failures that are causing harm. Police like to frame the debate as a false choice between highly corrupt policing or no policing at all.
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Old 7th October 2019, 07:36 AM   #28
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This also gets into what exactly is a police officer to determine when they came into existence. I mean people regard policing before and after the metropolitan police act of 1829 as different and that creating the first modern police force.
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Old 7th October 2019, 08:10 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Gotta love this strawman that gets trotted out anytime there are calls for police reform. It's the "how would you like it if we took our ball and went home" of political discourse. The police are often threatening to stop enforcing the law if they aren't allowed wide latitude to violate civil rights.

Society needs policing for the obvious reasons. Criticisms of the police are not repudiations of the entire endeavor, but rather recognition of systematic failures that are causing harm. Police like to frame the debate as a false choice between highly corrupt policing or no policing at all.
Dude what are you talking about? Any chance you could quote the post(s) you're replying to? Or at least link to them?
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Old 7th October 2019, 08:28 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Dude what are you talking about? Any chance you could quote the post(s) you're replying to? Or at least link to them?
I'm not replying to anyone in particular, but I can't help but think the OP is related to what is coined "the Ferguson effect", in which the police are perceived as being less proactive in response to worsening community relations.

https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/re...lhb0000164.pdf

The OP was a bit vague, but I can't help but conclude the hypothetical "society without police" is in context of police reform movements in this country.

Here is some context, with comments from then FBI head James Comey, basically blaming rising crime rates on police being afraid of being filmed while performing their duties.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/12/u...ideos-fbi.html
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Old 7th October 2019, 08:33 AM   #31
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It seems like you're trying to get an argument out of your head and into a thread where it doesn't really belong.
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Old 7th October 2019, 08:35 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It seems like you're trying to get an argument out of your head and into a thread where it doesn't really belong.
I'm sorry you feel that way.

Your post pretty much put a bow on this OP anyway. Society would invent police, it's a fundamental demand of civilization. What more can be said?
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Old 7th October 2019, 09:05 AM   #33
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Describe a society where police officers policed themselves with the same dedication that they did non-police, and didn't routinely form a blue wall of denial and obfuscation to cover up the transgressions of their "few bad apples".
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Old 7th October 2019, 09:09 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
re: the highlighted,
wasn't there a court decision in the US that concluded the police had no obligation to protect the public?

There was one for NYC cops. I'm not sure how broadly applicable it would have been for other departments across the country.

Not very, I expect. They'd have to get their own duck-and-cover decisions.
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Old 7th October 2019, 09:14 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
There was one for NYC cops. I'm not sure how broadly applicable it would have been for other departments across the country.

Not very, I expect. They'd have to get their own duck-and-cover decisions.
Well as it was federal courts for DC it is generally taken to apply to all officers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren...ct_of_Columbia

Though it was reinforced in the case where the cops watched someone being stabbed who then subdued the guy stabbing him, which of course the police got the credit for while hiding from the stabber.
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Old 7th October 2019, 09:16 AM   #36
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Quote:
Describe a society without police oficers (sic)
Copless
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Old 7th October 2019, 09:46 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well as it was federal courts for DC it is generally taken to apply to all officers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren...ct_of_Columbia

Though it was reinforced in the case where the cops watched someone being stabbed who then subdued the guy stabbing him, which of course the police got the credit for while hiding from the stabber.

The second one is the one I was thinking of.

Two ( ) NYPD cops hid and watched from safety while a man took down and subdued a spree killer in a NYC subway, being stabbed repeatedly himself in the struggle. Then they came out of hiding and arrested the killer after he was pinned to the floor.
Quote:
... attorneys for the City of New York argued that police had no duty to protect Lozito or any other person from Gelman.[24]

On July 25, 2013, Judge Margaret Chan dismissed Lozito's suit, stating that while Lozito's account of the attack rang true and appeared "highly credible", Chan agreed that police had "no special duty" to protect Lozito.[21][22][26]
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Last edited by quadraginta; 7th October 2019 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 7th October 2019, 09:59 AM   #38
ahhell
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm pretty sure police officers are like fiat currency: The first thing a society without them would do is invent them.
IDK, it took a couple of thousand years to for civilizations to create fiat money. Its also pretty surprising how long many societies go without police, If I understand it correctly, Rome was about 400 years into its history before it had a police force of note.

But like folks have said, the alternative to cops is almost certainly escalating fueds in any society where beyond the size where everyone knows everyone else.

I figured the answer to the Vatican's crime rates and police force would be tourism.
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Old 7th October 2019, 10:01 AM   #39
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The second one is the one I was thinking of.

Two ( ) NYPD cops hid and watched from safety while a man took down and subdued a spree killer in a NYC subway, being stabbed repeatedly himself in the struggle. Then they came out of hiding and arrested the killer after he was pinned to the floor.
Yep then they got accolades and honors for their behavior, while the guy who subdued the spree killer was conveniently in the ICU and not able to dispute their story.
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Old 7th October 2019, 10:05 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
IDK, it took a couple of thousand years to for civilizations to create fiat money. Its also pretty surprising how long many societies go without police, If I understand it correctly, Rome was about 400 years into its history before it had a police force of note.
But were the guards what we would think of as police or not? Until quite recently they seem to act more a beat/riot cops than have any real investigation functions. The preventing feuds was always more a job for the courts than the police.

And yes a weird thing is about how long we had a court system before a policing system.
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