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Tags celebrity incidents , celebrity opinions , Ellen Degeneres , George W. Bush

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Old 9th October 2019, 08:48 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Given that he's said nothing on the subject, I assume he hasn't. And there's also the Iraq war, ignoring warnings about Al Qaida (a lot of republicans screwed this one up), the apologetics for torture, his failure to protect civil rights (he's the only republican president in my life that didn't seem to personally hate any non-white group, I'll give him that, but he brought in hostile people to both the DoJ and the Supreme Court) and so forth.
Alright so more the totality of his administration, not necessarily his LGBTQ specific policy decisions. It seemed like the outcry was directed at Ellen more for the latter as opposed to the former, but I can see people having strong opinions given everything that went on under his watch in general.
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Old 10th October 2019, 05:30 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Do you really believe that?
Right now, there’s a guy a heartbeat away from the presidency who literally believes in “praying the gay away”.

Take a wild stab at guessing his political affiliation.
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Old 10th October 2019, 05:41 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Right now, there’s a guy a heartbeat away from the presidency who literally believes in “praying the gay away”.

Take a wild stab at guessing his political affiliation.
I think Brainster is asking if luchog really believes that Republicans actually want to kill luchog, specifically or generally, not whether they are actually Republicans.
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:34 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I think Brainster is asking if luchog really believes that Republicans actually want to kill luchog, specifically or generally, not whether they are actually Republicans.
I don't see how the distinction between killing someone and taking away their identity is a hair worth splitting.
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:44 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Even Hillary Clinton opposed gay marriage during Bush's presidency. This principled stand against Degeneres would make a lot more sense if it were actually principled.
The post you were responding to referred to the difficulty in knowing Bush's current position on gay marriage.

Your whataboutism falls flat because there is no such difficulty in regard to Hillary Clinton:
Originally Posted by Hillary Clinton, 2013
LGBT Americans are our colleagues, our teachers, our soldiers, our friends, our loved ones. And they are full and equal citizens, and they deserve the rights of citizenship. That includes marriage. That’s why I support marriage for lesbian and gay couples. I support it personally and as a matter of policy and law, embedded in a broader effort to advance equality and opportunity for LGBT Americans and all Americans.
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:48 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I don't see how the distinction between killing someone and taking away their identity is a hair worth splitting.


...Ok...hm... uh...

Given a choice between not being allowed to legally marry and having yahoos praying for my conversion, versus...being executed...I think that if we reflect soberly on which eventuality might render us able to fight another day and right the wrongs...

No. I just can't. Your whole line of thinking here is too cuckoo for cocoa puffs for yours truly.
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:49 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A position that condemns Bush but not Clinton on this issue is hypocritical AF, and you should be calling that out right alongside me.
Hillary Clinton supports gay marriage. Nothing to call out.

Unless you have evidence to the contrary, Bush still opposes gay marriage, and therefore is still a candidate to be called out on that issue.
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:00 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post


...Ok...hm... uh...

Given a choice between not being allowed to legally marry and having yahoos praying for my conversion, versus...being executed...I think that if we reflect soberly on which eventuality might render us able to fight another day and right the wrongs...

No. I just can't. Your whole line of thinking here is too cuckoo for cocoa puffs for yours truly.
"Praying the gay away" doesn't mean "having yahoos praying for my conversion". It refers to gay conversion therapy.
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:02 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The entire right want to put LGBTQ people to death.

Do we add the 25% of democrat voters?
He had a chance to have the justice department argue against criminalizing homosexuality when Lawrence v Texas was argued, of course merely outlawing and locking up gays is fine and not a troublesome act.

He was certainly fine with homosexuality being illegal then, why should we think his views have changed?
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:04 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
"Praying the gay away" doesn't mean "having yahoos praying for my conversion". It refers to gay conversion therapy.
...which, of course, is worse than...being murdered...

Totally see your point.
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:05 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Has GWB made any public statements supporting or opposing same sex marriage since his presidency? At the time of his proposal, it seems like same sex marriage was opposed by majorities in both parties. 15 years later, it's hard to know if his stance has changed and if the conversation was ever touched on by the two.

Overall it doesn't seem like his record on LGBTQ issues is terrible given the time he was president and the public view on such issues. To point to it as unrepentant evil with comparisons to nazis/pedos seems a bit extreme, but maybe I misread those things being in regards to other things done during his presidency and not specific to LGBTQ.
Hey he ordered people to be tortured and made sure that minor mistakes like torturing innocent people to death are just one of those things that happen and are of course not a serious legal issue when our troops do it.

Nothing wrong with a bit of torture though. No reason to compare him to other torturers or anything like that. It would be wrong to think that he can even remotely be compared to other torturers because america is simply better and as such our torture doesn't matter.
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:06 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
I can emphasize with her a bit. I, myself, happen to be friends with a few folks with whom I don't share very much in common, politically, including a small number of Trump supporters.

Friendship is friendship, you know.
Would you find it more difficult to be friends with these people if they played an active and significant role in limiting your rights?
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:08 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
...which, of course, is worse than...being murdered...

Totally see your point.
Being murdered is worse than being maimed, right? Does that mean you'd be fine with someone maiming you?

I don't see why I should accept fewer rights simply because I'm not being murdered at the moment.
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:10 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
...which, of course, is worse than...being murdered...

Totally see your point.
Your snark seems born of ignorance and is embarrassingly misguided.

You should do some research on the dangers of gay conversion therapy.
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:13 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Being murdered is worse than being maimed, right? Does that mean you'd be fine with someone maiming you?

I don't see why I should accept fewer rights simply because I'm not being murdered at the moment.
I'm not suggesting that anyone tolerate or accept bigotry and discrimination anywhere, ever.

I'm saying it is preferable to execution, which at least a poster or two here find to be equivalent.

It's not an either/or. It's a staying alive thing.

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Old 10th October 2019, 07:13 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Being murdered is worse than being maimed, right? Does that mean you'd be fine with someone maiming you?

I don't see why I should accept fewer rights simply because I'm not being murdered at the moment.
And of course these semantic games are always fun. Like with health care

"Why would you say X wants to kill you when they are only enacting policies that will inevitably result in your death, you can't say they want to kill you, merely that your death is of no consequence and has no reason to effect their policy decisions". Because exactly how their policies result in your death is how we go from minor differences that mean nothing to serious moral differences. Funny how you are just as dead either way though, you are permitted to upset about only one of them.
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:14 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Being murdered is worse than being maimed, right? Does that mean you'd be fine with someone maiming you?

I don't see why I should accept fewer rights simply because I'm not being murdered at the moment.
No, TragicMonkey, I don't think you understand.

You see, because, these people only want to strip you of your identity through some creepy pseudo-cultish brainwashing and not actively murder you (the increased potential for suicide notwithstanding) everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here, now, thank you.

How are you?
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:14 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Your snark seems born of ignorance and is embarrassingly misguided.

You should do some research on the dangers of gay conversion therapy.
Well aware. Still not the equivalent of murder.
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:15 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'm not suggesting that anyone tolerate or accept bigotry and discrimination anywhere, ever.
But that is exactly the point here, we have to be friends with bigots, and no one should ever call out someones bigoted friends and question how they can be friends with such bigots.
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:15 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'm not suggesting that anyone tolerate or accept bigotry and discrimination anywhere, ever.

I'm saying it is preferable to execution, which at least a poster or two here find to be equivalent.

It's not an either/or. It's a staying alive thing.

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Your posts continue to be a font of ignorance.
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:16 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well aware. Still not the equivalent of murder.
Yep exactly how they are killed makes a huge difference, just like you can't compare denying someone life saving health care(or oxygen) with murder.

So smothering someone isn't murder.
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:20 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'm not suggesting that anyone tolerate or accept bigotry and discrimination anywhere, ever.

I'm saying it is preferable to execution, which at least a poster or two here find to be equivalent.

It's not an either/or. It's a staying alive thing.

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By saying it it sounds like you're suggesting we should shut up and just be glad we're not being murdered, though. Do you really not see that's how you're coming across? It's like you just told a rape victim "at least he didn't kill you" or a cancer patient "at least it's not AIDS".

In the context of civil rights "at least it's not murder any more" isn't a simple declaration of an obvious truth, it's an argument pushing to silence the oppressed.
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:22 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well aware. Still not the equivalent of murder.
No one claimed otherwise.

I specifically referred to a distinction between murder and gay conversion therapy because both are awful, and because murder is not the only awful thing that can happen to someone.

And just to reiterate, this discussion was about the concept of ending someone's existence referring not only to the literal end of their existence, but also by stripping that person of a fundamental aspect of who they are.
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:23 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But that is exactly the point here, we have to be friends with bigots, and no one should ever call out someones bigoted friends and question how they can be friends with such bigots.
I don't think Ellen is any hero for what she did, not that it is important one way or the other. I think she happily sidles up to the powerful when given the chance. Looking at her as an uninterested observer, her identity as wealthy and influential seems to trump her identity as a gay liberal figurehead.

Many celebrities and athletes have declined invitations to the White House. That, to me, shows powerful resolve. Ellen simply claims to be friends with someone who she should be so fundamentally in opposition to that it strains credibility. Unless her checkbook has become her primary identity.
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:36 AM   #185
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I made a post a while back about what you could tolerate in a friend. I didn’t think to put invading a sovereign nation, promoting torture of humans and opposing LGBT equality on the list. Instead I asked people if they could accept a friend who came out as LGBT. If the poll is accurate (and it probably is not), seven people could not accept the latter.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=327723
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:36 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
By saying it it sounds like you're suggesting we should shut up and just be glad we're not being murdered, though. Do you really not see that's how you're coming across? It's like you just told a rape victim "at least he didn't kill you" or a cancer patient "at least it's not AIDS".

In the context of civil rights "at least it's not murder any more" isn't a simple declaration of an obvious truth, it's an argument pushing to silence the oppressed.
Slight sidebar:

That is a massive problem with this site, I think. Every comment is being interpreted tribally. My comments here are only related to the somewhat unhinged argument that Republicans (of which I am not one) wish to ...kill...all LGBTQs. That's just a bat**** claim. It does not mean I am arguing a loftier position, to be walked around like a poodle.

I am in no way, shape or form arguing that you, my Bi daughter, or anyone else take any **** from any bigot, anywhere, at any time. Au contraire. I'll wave a rainbow banner right along side of you.

But hyperbolic rhetoric does no one any good. Being a Republican does not mean you want to kill people. It drags the much-needed open conversation to childish levels.
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:40 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
"Praying the gay away" doesn't mean "having yahoos praying for my conversion". It refers to gay conversion therapy.

Conversion therapy is nothing short of torture. Common practice includes severe psychological abuse at the very least, and many programs escalate to physical abuse, and even rape. And it's not adults who are the majority victims of conversion therapy programs, more often it's minors forced into these programs by their religious-fanatic parents.

There's a reason that conversion therapy for minors is banned in 18 states, 55 counties, DC, and Puerto Rico; and it's stringently opposed by all major medical organizations in the US.

Unfortunately, some municipal and county governments are working to roll back the bans on conversion therapy.
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:46 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
No one claimed otherwise.

I specifically referred to a distinction between murder and gay conversion therapy because both are awful, and because murder is not the only awful thing that can happen to someone.
And no one questions that. You're moving the goalposts.

Quote:
And just to reiterate, this discussion was about the concept of ending someone's existence referring not only to the literal end of their existence, but also by stripping that person of a fundamental aspect of who they are.
The discussion was about the needlessly dramatic use of 'end my existence'. It is detrimental to the argument to sound delusional. Even the sickest of the gay conversion advocates want to change the person, not end them. I get the identity argument. But do you think that wild hyperbole makes the argument credible?

Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I don't see how the distinction between killing someone and taking away their identity is a hair worth splitting.
It remains a massive distinction. That does not take away from anyone's right to fight for equal treatment.
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:50 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Being murdered is worse than being maimed, right? Does that mean you'd be fine with someone maiming you?



I don't see why I should accept fewer rights simply because I'm not being murdered at the moment.
There's a world of difference between "they all want me dead" and "they all want me not to enjoy the statutory benefits of marriage".

There's also a world of diferrence between those hyperboles and reality.
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Old 10th October 2019, 08:10 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It remains a massive distinction.
I disagree, and I've already very clearly made my case for why I disagree.
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Old 10th October 2019, 08:17 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's a world of difference between "they all want me dead" and "they all want me not to enjoy the statutory benefits of marriage".
A convenient position to hold from someone with the luxury of not being at risk of murder or having their rights taken away because of their sexuality.

Quote:
There's also a world of difference between those hyperboles and reality.
This message brought to you in a thread conflating "I am troubled by Ellen's friendship with George W. Bush" with "Progressives are saying we can't be friends with people we disagree with!".

Last edited by johnny karate; 10th October 2019 at 09:07 AM. Reason: fixed minor grammatical error
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Old 10th October 2019, 08:23 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
No, TragicMonkey, I don't think you understand.

You see, because, these people only want to strip you of your identity through some creepy pseudo-cultish brainwashing and not actively murder you (the increased potential for suicide notwithstanding) everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here, now, thank you.

How are you?
Haha I just watched this the other night, if you're referring to the Peter Griffin version that is...
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Old 10th October 2019, 09:10 AM   #193
luchog
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
A convenient position to hold from someone with the luxury of not being at risk of murder or having their rights taken away because of their sexuality.

And not surprising, given the degree of transgender denialism demonstrated by many posters here, as evidenced in numerous other threads on the subject.

Quote:
This message brought to you in a thread conflating "I am troubled by Ellen's friendship with George W. Bush" with "Progressives are saying we can't be friends with people we disagree with!".

Never let facts get in the way of a hysterical straw man.
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Old 10th October 2019, 09:29 AM   #194
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Never let facts get in the way of a hysterical straw man.
Hey it is legitimate conservative doctrine that anyone who refuses to be friends with a nazi is some kind of crazy liberal snowflake. Most of their best friends are Nazis after all.
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Old 10th October 2019, 09:29 AM   #195
Dr. Keith
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
One side wants end my existence. The other side is perfectly happy to support my existence. What's the compromise here? I can partly exist? I can exist but am not permitted to be employed or get healthcare? What is the compromise that results in my existence as an equal member of humanity?
Why has this simple statement "end my existence" been transformed into "murder"?

If I exist as a trans woman and one side wishes to change the law such that I may no longer be a trans woman, does that not mean that "one sides wants to end my existence"?

If I exist as a gay man and one side wishes to change the law such that I may no longer be a gay man, does that not mean that "one sides wants to end my existence"?

Currently, I am lucky enough to exist as a married man, but if one side wished to outlaw my marriage and supported abusive practices to try to convert me to marry someone I was not attracted to, and stripped me of many legal rights if I refused to bow to these pressures and pretend to be attracted to this other person, would that not mean that "one sides wants to end my existence"?

Goddamn pedants can't even get their language right. What is this world coming to?
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Old 10th October 2019, 09:37 AM   #196
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Imma take off my shirt. As a shirt wearer, my existence shall be ended.

Eta: before anyone says it, yes that is the argument. Shifting the parameters from some conversionalists want to fundamentally change you, way over to an entire political party wants to end your existence.
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Last edited by Thermal; 10th October 2019 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:10 AM   #197
I Am The Scum
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We're seriously gonna quibble over that one little phrase?
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:14 AM   #198
Thermal
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We're seriously going to determine if it is a poe I hope
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:15 AM   #199
Steve
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
We're seriously gonna quibble over that one little phrase?
Oh yeah! This is the ISF. Everything is crucial.
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:23 AM   #200
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
We're seriously going to determine if it is a poe I hope
I like how the guy who just compared wearing a shirt to sexual orientation thinks what someone else posted is too stupid to be taken seriously.
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