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Old 16th January 2019, 05:17 PM   #321
xjx388
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To expand:

You seem to be asking at least two different questions:

-What does gender mean in the context of gender identity, etc?

-How do I figure out my gender without reference to my biological features?

I've answered the first as best I can. The second answer is: you already know what your sexual identity is because you either never had to think about it, figured it out on your own OR you are experiencing gender dysphoria and no one here can really help you with that.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:44 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
To expand:

You seem to be asking at least two different questions:

-What does gender mean in the context of gender identity, etc?

-How do I figure out my gender without reference to my biological features?

I've answered the first as best I can. The second answer is: you already know what your sexual identity is because you either never had to think about it, figured it out on your own OR you are experiencing gender dysphoria and no one here can really help you with that.
The second question was actually suggested by arthwollipot asking "Are you a man or a woman". Interesting question.

I can't be suffering from gender dysphoria, here is how it is defined:
Quote:
the condition of feeling one's emotional and psychological identity as male or female to be opposite to one's biological sex.
How can that be me? I don't even know what it means to have an emotional or psychological identity as a male or female.

And it is interesting that those people who do have this, can't quite put their finger on what exactly it is.

I am not doubting that people do have a psychological identity as male or female, I have been around trans men and trans women long enough to have figured that out.

But it is something that people can't quite put in words.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:46 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
The second question was actually suggested by arthwollipot asking "Are you a man or a woman". Interesting question.
I want to acknowledge here that starting with that question was probably not the most productive approach to the issue.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:56 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I don't even know what it means to have an emotional or psychological identity as a male or female.

And it is interesting that those people who do have this, can't quite put their finger on what exactly it is.
I can explain what having an emotional and psychological identity as a female means to me, for me, but it won't work as a definition or description for a lot of other women.
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Old 16th January 2019, 05:57 PM   #325
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Robin, would it make more sense to think of being male/female as just a descriptor, rather than an identification? Kind of like saying you are a blonde or brunette. Nothing essential or identifying about it...just an observation.
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Old 16th January 2019, 08:28 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I want to acknowledge here that starting with that question was probably not the most productive approach to the issue.
I thought it crystallized the matter perfectly.

And it underlined that the best answer for myself is "neither" and which is why, as you intimated before, I have trouble with the concept.
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Old 16th January 2019, 08:34 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I thought it crystallized the matter perfectly.

And it underlined that the best answer for myself is "neither" and which is why, as you intimated before, I have trouble with the concept.
Fair enough.
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Old 17th January 2019, 12:08 AM   #328
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What does "gender" mean?

Originally Posted by Robin View Post
The second question was actually suggested by arthwollipot asking "Are you a man or a woman". Interesting question.



I can't be suffering from gender dysphoria, here is how it is defined:





How can that be me? I don't even know what it means to have an emotional or psychological identity as a male or female.



And it is interesting that those people who do have this, can't quite put their finger on what exactly it is.



I am not doubting that people do have a psychological identity as male or female, I have been around trans men and trans women long enough to have figured that out.



But it is something that people can't quite put in words.

You are undoubtedly correct. I can grok that there are some people who don’t have an inkling as to what gender is. But I‘m afraid I’ve reached the limit of my ability to relate here. I’d wager that there are very few people who can relate to your inability to grok gender. I’ll switch to lurk mode and hope that someone will come along who can relate and shed some light. I will say that I’ve gotten a lot out of luchog’s posts here.




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Old 17th January 2019, 05:14 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Not all transpersons experience pathological levels of dysphoria, particularly not those who identify as non-binary, since the "deviation" of their internal image from their physical sex is not quite so pronounced and dichotomous (although some certainly do). But from my reading, the overwhelming majority of them have some idea that they're "not normal", even if it's only vaguely understood in the backs of their minds. Not having a cultural tradition of transgenderism, and particularly with the active repression, and outright demonization, of transgendered people throughout western, particularly Anglosphere, history, many people grow up without the referents to understand what they are feeling, and often repress it within themselves out of self-preservation.
I can relate overwhelming to this. Some people might know that I came out as transgender, though in my case I'm not strongly dysphoria because of various reason it would take too long to go into, though the main one is that I have gotten so good at playing a male I sometimes wind up wondering where the mask ends and I begin. I was brought up in a semi-religious home, going to church when we were in town with my grandmother. Growing up during the 70's in out in a small county village with a population of about 70-100 people, I didn't even know what a transgender was, I didn't know that until I was in my 20's. Even moving into town didn't enlighten me.

I always knew that I was different, from my earliest memories, about 5, I knew I felt I was supposed to be a girl, but I also "knew" that such a thing was bad and wrong, and so rather the speak about it I hid it. By the time I was a teen I was repressing it, hiding behind religion, even though I knew I was different to the other boys I knew. Again I didn't know what it was, though it did express itself in a few ways that I "knew" were bad, and so I kept controlled. I learned to behave like a male, just as a psychopath learns to imitate feelings and empathy. It's actually quite funny, and a little scary, because while I prefer the company of women, when I am in an environment of men I can feel the "Mask" go on and the act start. It's a preservation mechanism, and not one I am totally proud of, and I generally come away feeling unclean.

When I finally learned about Transgenderism so much in my life finally clicked into place with understanding. However now well into my 40's and being 6'3 and heavily built I understand that there is no way I will ever be able to transition, even if I could afford it. I have found a cooping mechanism that works for me, RPGs, they allow me to escape, and I also now understand why 99% of the characters I have played in games are female. It's not perfect, and I have really bad days where I hate my body so much it makes me depressed, and I wish so much that I could go back to my 5-year old self and explain it all and change their fate, instead I have resigned to just be who I am, and when I grow my hair and finger nails long i know why those things are natural to me. It's a strange place to be in, but in this particular collapsed probability wave form of a universe, it's who I am. Perhaps in a different probability, 5-year old me figured it all out and had a better life because of it. I kinda hope so.
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Old 17th January 2019, 07:16 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
(...much personal stuff snipped...)

This could have been taken almost verbatim from my brain. One of the few times I can say "I understand more or less exactly what you mean" in all honesty. I know that Mask far too well.

My own internal image is not strictly female, it's almost dead in the middle; a classical hermaphrodite, or futanari if you're familiar with Japanese pop culture (don't google that at work); but leaning a bit more toward female than male.

Internal identity is a complex and highly individual thing, especially when it tends toward the far ends of the bell curve, but there can still be a lot of shared experiences, particularly when it comes to coping with the world around us.
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Old 17th January 2019, 01:58 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I have found a cooping mechanism that works for me, RPGs, they allow me to escape, and I also now understand why 99% of the characters I have played in games are female.
I always love hearing about times my favourite hobby is actually really positive and helpful to people.
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Old 17th January 2019, 07:28 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post



When I finally learned about Transgenderism so much in my life finally clicked into place with understanding. However now well into my 40's and being 6'3 and heavily built I understand that there is no way I will ever be able to transition, even if I could afford it. I have found a cooping mechanism that works for me, RPGs, they allow me to .
Here In Hawai’i, even among the trans but definitely among the Mahu, you would be considered “petite “ so don’t worry about it... come by if you want to borrow a board.
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Old 18th January 2019, 06:53 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
You are undoubtedly correct. I can grok that there are some people who don’t have an inkling as to what gender is. But I‘m afraid I’ve reached the limit of my ability to relate here. I’d wager that there are very few people who can relate to your inability to grok gender. I’ll switch to lurk mode and hope that someone will come along who can relate and shed some light. I will say that I’ve gotten a lot out of luchog’s posts here.
At least two people here have said that they don't understand gender any more than I do.

And most here have admitted that, even though they feel they have a gender they can't begin to express what it is that they have.
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Old 18th January 2019, 07:05 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Robin, would it make more sense to think of being male/female as just a descriptor, rather than an identification? Kind of like saying you are a blonde or brunette. Nothing essential or identifying about it...just an observation.
And yet to me, who doesn't have it, there is nothing that it is describing, other than the superficial surface things.

Part of the problem is that it seems to relate to two distinct things. 1) The feeling of being a man or a woman. 2) Societal/cultural expectations.

When talking about gender people seem to conflate these things.

I had a friend who, when I saw him with his friends on the worksite, just fitted into the blokey culture. He made off-colour comments about women, spoke about sport in that way that men do that I can't seem to imitate and all the rest of the 'we-are-men-together' rituals.

And yet when we are alone together he was tender, solicitous and vulnerable. He talked about how he sometimes feels like killing himself, of the woman he loves and wants to marry but who is growing away from him.

He admitted that he never talks about these things with his other mates. So who was he really?

I have seen this enough times to know that it is not a one-off situation. So 'masculinity' seems to be the mask some men wear.
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Last edited by Robin; 18th January 2019 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 18th January 2019, 12:10 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
The second question was actually suggested by arthwollipot asking "Are you a man or a woman". Interesting question.

I can't be suffering from gender dysphoria, here is how it is defined:


How can that be me? I don't even know what it means to have an emotional or psychological identity as a male or female.

And it is interesting that those people who do have this, can't quite put their finger on what exactly it is.

I am not doubting that people do have a psychological identity as male or female, I have been around trans men and trans women long enough to have figured that out.

But it is something that people can't quite put in words.
I believe that is labeled gender fluid. My brother often battles nomenclature
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Old 18th January 2019, 12:26 PM   #336
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I have a large, very old dictionary, I find it useful.

Gender:
One of three classifications into which English nouns and pronouns naturally fall.
Masculine, Feminine, or Neuter.
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Old 18th January 2019, 01:13 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
But it is something that people can't quite put in words.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.
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Old 18th January 2019, 04:05 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.
Also, the smallest number that can't be referred to, shouldn't be referred to.

I referred to it once, but I think I got away with it.

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Old 18th January 2019, 08:03 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
I believe that is labeled gender fluid. My brother often battles nomenclature
Same problem. How can I be gender fluid if I don't know what gender is in the first place.

Agender, maybe.

Maybe I am that guy the RWNJ's have been talking about - the gay agender.
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Old 18th January 2019, 08:07 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Agender, maybe.

Maybe I am that guy the RWNJ's have been talking about - the gay agender.
Ha!
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Old 19th January 2019, 05:53 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
This could have been taken almost verbatim from my brain. One of the few times I can say "I understand more or less exactly what you mean" in all honesty. I know that Mask far too well.

My own internal image is not strictly female, it's almost dead in the middle; a classical hermaphrodite, or futanari if you're familiar with Japanese pop culture (don't google that at work); but leaning a bit more toward female than male.

Internal identity is a complex and highly individual thing, especially when it tends toward the far ends of the bell curve, but there can still be a lot of shared experiences, particularly when it comes to coping with the world around us.
ty, it's often helpful to realise that there are others out there that understand what you're going through, especially on the bad days regardless of how far apart they are.
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Old 19th January 2019, 05:55 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I always love hearing about times my favourite hobby is actually really positive and helpful to people.
I think RPGs are always able to help people, even if it's just allowing those of us that are bit more introverted socialise more. For me it's a panacea for a few things, as well as a way of setting myself and my imagination free.
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Old 19th January 2019, 05:56 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
Here In Hawai’i, even among the trans but definitely among the Mahu, you would be considered “petite “ so don’t worry about it... come by if you want to borrow a board.
ty, this made me smile.
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Old 19th January 2019, 06:39 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I think RPGs are always able to help people, even if it's just allowing those of us that are bit more introverted socialise more. For me it's a panacea for a few things, as well as a way of setting myself and my imagination free.
+1
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