ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 16th January 2019, 02:12 PM   #481
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 59,926
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nope, Kelly and Apathia have kept missing the symptom I was and am discussing.

And where have I even indicated in the slightest a number of religious folk who suffer from such a symptom? I suspect some folk are a tad paranoid (irony intended) thinking there is a gotcha or something in my posts....
Well, we can discuss all day whether auditory hallucinations can be a symptom of a psychotic disorder, but until we relate it to religious people, it's off-topic for this thread.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2019, 04:39 PM   #482
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,037
Regardless of whether or not theists claim they can hear their particular god (but never the gods of others) talking to them, it seems they all talk to their particular god as if it can and does actually hear them. I'd say that's a form of stupidity, if not insanity.
__________________
Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2019, 04:58 PM   #483
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 59,926
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Regardless of whether or not theists claim they can hear their particular god (but never the gods of others) talking to them, it seems they all talk to their particular god as if it can and does actually hear them. I'd say that's a form of stupidity, if not insanity.
I don't think so. If their underlying assumptions are true, then it makes perfect sense to do so. Not that I'm saying that they are, just that it's a logical progression.

There are religions that don't make sense logically, and those that make sense logically but are derived from faulty axioms. Spiritualism, for example, is logically inconsistent. Even if the axioms of spiritualism were true, then its practice still wouldn't make logical sense. Praying is a logical conclusion that is drawn from a faulty axiom - that God exists and is capable of hearing and answering those prayers.

This is what I was saying about some religions being more irrational than others. Was that in this thread? I lose track sometimes.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2019, 05:25 PM   #484
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,536
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well, we can discuss all day whether auditory hallucinations can be a symptom of a psychotic disorder, but until we relate it to religious people, it's off-topic for this thread.
Pretty much demonstrated my point for me. You simply dismiss a religious person hearing God's voice in their head as a symptom of an illness, because they are religious. Astonishing.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2019, 05:42 PM   #485
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 59,926
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Pretty much demonstrated my point for me. You simply dismiss a religious person hearing God's voice in their head as a symptom of an illness, because they are religious. Astonishing.
No, I acknowledge that someone who is experiencing an auditory hallucination may have a mental disorder, regardless of whether they are religious or not. But I can't diagnose someone - I'm not qualified. That hypothetical person should seek professional mental health care. Regardless of whether they are religious or not.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2019, 06:10 PM   #486
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,139
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Pretty much demonstrated my point for me. You simply dismiss a religious person hearing God's voice in their head as a symptom of an illness, because they are religious. Astonishing.
It depends on how they describe the features of what they're calling a "voice" - if it has a clearly defined acoustical quality of a certain sort, for example, or if they hear it in their eardrums vs "in their heart". Those kinds of things.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2019, 07:10 PM   #487
Apathia
Illuminator
 
Apathia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 4,859
It's pretty much this, isn't it?

You can't be believing irrational stuff if you're completely sane.
So religious people believing irrational stuff aren't completely sane.
__________________
"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections."
Justice William O. Douglas

"Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures."
Author Unknown
Apathia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2019, 07:34 PM   #488
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 59,926
Define "sane". It's another of those terms that doesn't have an official definition in the mental health literature. Besides, "sane" people believe irrational stuff all the time. By your argument, atheists who use alternative medicine aren't "sane" either. The pool of "sane" people is tiny.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2019, 08:29 PM   #489
Apathia
Illuminator
 
Apathia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 4,859
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Define "sane". It's another of those terms that doesn't have an official definition in the mental health literature. Besides, "sane" people believe irrational stuff all the time. By your argument, atheists who use alternative medicine aren't "sane" either. The pool of "sane" people is tiny.
I agree. Very , very tiny! Minuscule, in fact.
__________________
"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections."
Justice William O. Douglas

"Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures."
Author Unknown

Last edited by Apathia; 16th January 2019 at 08:32 PM.
Apathia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2019, 10:57 PM   #490
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,536
Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
It's pretty much this, isn't it?



You can't be believing irrational stuff if you're completely sane.

So religious people believing irrational stuff aren't completely sane.
Is it?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2019, 11:18 PM   #491
Apathia
Illuminator
 
Apathia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 4,859
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Is it?
Nope!
__________________
"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections."
Justice William O. Douglas

"Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures."
Author Unknown
Apathia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2019, 04:34 AM   #492
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,536
Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
Nope!
Then why did you say it was? :confused
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2019, 04:44 AM   #493
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,536
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Define "sane". It's another of those terms that doesn't have an official definition in the mental health literature. Besides, "sane" people believe irrational stuff all the time. By your argument, atheists who use alternative medicine aren't "sane" either. The pool of "sane" people is tiny.
Your hair splitting is reaching insane levels.

Sane and its antonym will have different meanings depending where it is being used and the context in which it is used. I'd say there are two main uses, one is the everyday antonym to "that's insane" which is usually not directed at a person but at circumstances, with the meaning being that something is irrational. The other major use, and the one in which it certainly is used by mental health professionals is its legal definition, a short hand for "of sound mind, able to distinguish right from wrong and cognitive ability to understand a trail". That diagnosis of someone being "sane" is in the legal sense made by medical professionals.

Think it is time a sanity check in this thread.

Does anyone not agree with the following?

Some religious people suffer from mental illness?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2019, 07:19 AM   #494
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 9,340
Definitions:
  • Sanity: Able to recognize, understand and use reliable and valid information, distinguishing it from that which is unsupported, useless, or whimsical. Important for survival.
  • Science: The body of knowledge that represents the accumulation of humankind's valid and reliable understanding of the nature and workings of the natural world.
  • Reasoned belief: Subscribe to any of the claims of science as being true, factual, operative or similar with respect to the natural world.
  • Religion: A body of knowledge that represents the accumulation of humankind's understanding of supernatural realms and their relation to the natural world. (Note: "A" body and not "the" body. There are no religious universals. Oops.)
  • Faith: Subscribe to any of the claims of religion as being true, factual, operative or similar with respect to the supernatural (OK, check) and natural worlds (Zzzzzt).
  • Zzzzt: Houston, we have a sanity violation.
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion.
His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp

Last edited by Hlafordlaes; 17th January 2019 at 07:26 AM.
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2019, 10:18 AM   #495
Apathia
Illuminator
 
Apathia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 4,859
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Then why did you say it was? :confused
A rhetorical thing.
__________________
"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections."
Justice William O. Douglas

"Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures."
Author Unknown
Apathia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2019, 10:21 AM   #496
Apathia
Illuminator
 
Apathia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 4,859
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Your hair splitting is reaching insane levels.

Sane and its antonym will have different meanings depending where it is being used and the context in which it is used. I'd say there are two main uses, one is the everyday antonym to "that's insane" which is usually not directed at a person but at circumstances, with the meaning being that something is irrational. The other major use, and the one in which it certainly is used by mental health professionals is its legal definition, a short hand for "of sound mind, able to distinguish right from wrong and cognitive ability to understand a trail". That diagnosis of someone being "sane" is in the legal sense made by medical professionals.

Think it is time a sanity check in this thread.

Does anyone not agree with the following?

Some religious people suffer from mental illness?
I agree with you. Some religious people do suffer mental illness.
And some non religious people suffer mental illness.

I don't take religion as a symptom of mental illness.
__________________
"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections."
Justice William O. Douglas

"Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures."
Author Unknown

Last edited by Apathia; 17th January 2019 at 10:22 AM.
Apathia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2019, 12:45 PM   #497
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,536
Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
I agree with you. Some religious people do suffer mental illness.
And some non religious people suffer mental illness.

I don't take religion as a symptom of mental illness.
Would that mean you would say a religious person who says they hear a voice as clear as a bell in their head and they claim it is their god is not a symptom of a possible illness? Yet if it was a non religious person who says they hear a voice as clear as a bell in their head and they claim it is Churchill that is a symptom of a possible illness.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2019, 02:28 PM   #498
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 59,926
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Does anyone not agree with the following?

Some religious people suffer from mental illness?
I was considering going back through the thread and quoting every time I acknowledged that, but it would be a ridiculously tedious exercise, since I have said it so many times.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2019, 03:34 PM   #499
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 14,449
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Actually I think they'd be treated the same. As long as Winnie isn't telling you to go across the channel and kill jerries (or more accurately, as long as you don't start doing it), you're as technically not crazy as the next guy. Which works pretty well in terms of not providing justification to lock people up for thoughtcrime, but also means arguing from the DSM isn't very helpful in the context of an informal conversation where we're trying to split a hair between cray and cray cray.
I will disagree. If you hear Winnie telling you stuff, you ARE experiencing a hallucination. Where the medical profession and society in general are drawing a line is: well, are you unable to care for yourself? Are you a danger to yourself or others?

It does NOT mean you're totally not schizophrenic as long as you don't hear the voices telling you to sacrifice your roommates to them. It just means that, yeah, you're crazy, but you're not dangerous to yourself or others, so meh, you can stay in your own home. Here's some antipsychotics, but we're not paying for a hospital bed for you. Taking it to mean that you're not schizophrenic if they let you go without a really long sleeved jacket is completely wrong.

In fact, yours would be a piss-poor criterion, because those kinds of hallucinations indistinguishable from reality only exist in paranoid schizophrenia, which is a tiny subset of schizophrenias. They're also the least interfering with one's life, as long as the voices don't tell them to do illegal stuff. Most cases of paranoid schizophrenia will not do much to one's IQ, or at least as long as they didn't progress past the point of no return, so you can function more or less the same as before.

The vast majority of cases are actually simple schizophrenia, which are characterized more by slowly increasingly bizarre logic, delusions that don't involve actual hallucinations, and increasingly reduced mental capacity. Saying that those are OK as long as the voices don't tell them to kill someone, is missing the point entirely, since those DON'T hear those kinds of voices in the first place.

In simple schizophrenia, it's not that you hear the neighbour's cat telling you to pray to Bast. It's more like, for example, knowing that the neighbour's cat is a nekomata (magical cat with necromancy and illusion powers) and you're a zombie controlled by it. Or that the neighbour's cat literally stole your heart. That's literal Cotard Syndrome. Or that the neighbour, his cat, and half the people on your street have been replaced by exactly identical copies, and they're trying to deceive you. That's Capgras Syndrome. Or you don't hear a cat telling you that the zombie apocalypse is coming, you find hidden messages to YOU in Purrina commercials telling YOU that the zombie apocalypse is coming. That's delusions of reference. Etc.

Now people suffering from those delusions may not be past the point where they can't care for themselves any more, nor actually go murder someone because the hidden messages told them to. (Which, btw, is exactly what happened to Charles Manson.) So at some point we as a society decided that meh, we'd rather they eventually slept under a bridge and shouted doomsday warnings at pigeons, than pay for a hospital bed for them. But to say they're not ill is flat out wrong, and the illness will get worse over time if untreated. That's one way we know it's for real.


And on the topic of religion vs mental illness, I find that here too the more commonly simulated symptoms are those of simple schizophrenia, not of paranoid schizophrenia. So focusing only on those saying they hear voices is IMHO actually counter-productive.

The fact of the matter is, for example everyone pretending to be possessed by the holy spirit when they talk in tongues, is simulating a particular manifestation of Cotard Syndrome. In fact, one where it's progressed untreated for WAAAHAAAHAAAYYY too long. Which is one reason I brought that one up earlier in the message. Everyone pretending that, yeah, totally, if you take fragments of an OT sentence, then it's totally a secret message about Jesus, is simulating delusions of reference. Etc.

Do I think that everyone claiming those is actually having simple schizophrenia? No. But religion teaches them that that's something ok to do. AND they offer a massive smoke screen for those who actually DO suffer from schizophrenia.

It's like everyone going "I'm Spartacus!" in that movie. Only here everyone is like, "yeah, I get possessed by the holy ghost and scream nonsense too!" Suddenly those who DO have a problem and should get treatment, are shielded from having to face that reality. Not only now it's totally normal, and everyone does it, it's even something to be proud of, if you find more hidden messages about Jesus than the other guy. Suddenly instead of being a guy in need of treatment, you're a theologian or even church father.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 17th January 2019 at 03:40 PM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2019, 03:42 PM   #500
Apathia
Illuminator
 
Apathia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 4,859
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Would that mean you would say a religious person who says they hear a voice as clear as a bell in their head and they claim it is their god is not a symptom of a possible illness? Yet if it was a non religious person who says they hear a voice as clear as a bell in their head and they claim it is Churchill that is a symptom of a possible illness.
Yes sir-ee. That's a possible symptom of illness! I'd advise that person to get a check-up. Note the word "possible." Auditory hallucinations happen to ordinarily healthy minds. I'm more concerned if these episodes are repeated as opposed to a one time wonder.

Most Christians who say they heard God's call, or something like that, don't mean they were thrown off their horse by a booming voice from the sky, or just a little voice heard in their ears. It's metaphorical for what I spoke of before.
It's all the same if the voice is Krishna or Christopher Hitchens.

Also, if someone is having auditory hallucinations of the voice of Jesus, the cure would not be renouncing their religion and becoming an Atheist.

And I repeat: Being religious is not a symptom of mental illness. Sure some religious folks cam be "mental" in the popular usage. Delusion is an impairment of clear thinking. Some religious folks can have actual mental illnesses. But yes. I have the temerity and arrogance to say that it does not follow that a religious believer is or will become mentally Ill.

If there's anyone here who very much wants believers pinned into that category, please ask yourself why you are so zealous.
__________________
"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections."
Justice William O. Douglas

"Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures."
Author Unknown

Last edited by Apathia; 17th January 2019 at 03:55 PM.
Apathia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2019, 03:55 PM   #501
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 59,926
Good post, Hans. Thanks.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2019, 04:59 PM   #502
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,640
I asked before but missed an answer if there was one: What are you hoping to accomplish by having religious belief classified as a symptom of mental illness or a mental illness in itself?

And then, ok, let’s say we agree that it is. Have you thought about what that might mean? Certainly we’d have to agree that Barack Obama was insane. The “Donald Trump is Dangerously Mentally Ill” thread has purported to teach us that delusions and other signs of mental illness are bad traits in a President. More than likely, the next Presidential candidate is going to be religious in some way. That brave new Congress Critter who wore a hijab? That’s not brave; it’s a sign of mental illness!

So yeah, what does labeling religion a mental illness gain anyone?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2019, 05:07 PM   #503
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 30,952
Satisfaction.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2019, 05:22 PM   #504
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 59,926
While once again cautioning on the potential dangers of remote mental health diagnosis, I have seen some people express the opinion that Pres. Trump may be suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2019, 08:37 AM   #505
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,536
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I asked before but missed an answer if there was one: What are you hoping to accomplish by having religious belief classified as a symptom of mental illness or a mental illness in itself?

And then, ok, let’s say we agree that it is. Have you thought about what that might mean? Certainly we’d have to agree that Barack Obama was insane. The “Donald Trump is Dangerously Mentally Ill” thread has purported to teach us that delusions and other signs of mental illness are bad traits in a President. More than likely, the next Presidential candidate is going to be religious in some way. That brave new Congress Critter who wore a hijab? That’s not brave; it’s a sign of mental illness!

So yeah, what does labeling religion a mental illness gain anyone?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Who wants to label all religious beliefs as a sympton of illness?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2019, 10:03 PM   #506
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,355
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I asked before but missed an answer if there was one: What are you hoping to accomplish by having religious belief classified as a symptom of mental illness or a mental illness in itself?

And then, ok, let’s say we agree that it is. Have you thought about what that might mean? Certainly we’d have to agree that Barack Obama was insane. The “Donald Trump is Dangerously Mentally Ill” thread has purported to teach us that delusions and other signs of mental illness are bad traits in a President. More than likely, the next Presidential candidate is going to be religious in some way. That brave new Congress Critter who wore a hijab? That’s not brave; it’s a sign of mental illness!

So yeah, what does labeling religion a mental illness gain anyone?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why does one have to have something they hope to accomplish, in order to make an observation? I can make the observation that the sea is salty and the sky is blue, without someone jumping down my neck and saying - " why do you make that observation."
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2019, 11:53 PM   #507
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 9,340
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Satisfaction.
Zzzzt! [See definitions ut supra]
Issuing value judgments -- without the remotest argumentation or justification thereof -- indicates confusion between (sad) reality and self-aggrandizing myth. Sanity violation.
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion.
His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 03:10 AM   #508
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,536
Just read about this story in another thread, a judge tells a jury god told him the defendant was not guilty

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/progre...nt-not-guilty/
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 12:52 PM   #509
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,355
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Just read about this story in another thread, a judge tells a jury god told him the defendant was not guilty

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/progre...nt-not-guilty/

Yes obviously a nutter.

Quote:
Judge Robison believes that God is talking to him, and he is also a working judge in the state of Texas.

Bottom line: Weep for Texas; weep for the nation.

Texans are a quite religious lot so it's promising the Jury were not swayed by the Judges "from God" instructions. On the other hand maybe they just thought the judge had a bad line and the Devil was cutting in.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 06:05 PM   #510
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 59,926
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Just read about this story in another thread, a judge tells a jury god told him the defendant was not guilty

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/progre...nt-not-guilty/
Do you think the judge in this case experienced a genuine auditory hallucination?
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 09:40 PM   #511
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,640
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Why does one have to have something they hope to accomplish, in order to make an observation? I can make the observation that the sea is salty and the sky is blue, without someone jumping down my neck and saying - " why do you make that observation."
Well, there’s your motive right there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 09:42 PM   #512
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,640
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Who wants to label all religious beliefs as a sympton of illness?


The OP certainly seems to be an attempt to do so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 09:47 PM   #513
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 30,952
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Who wants to label all religious beliefs as a sympton of illness?
Thor2.

You sound more and more like an absentee landlord every day.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 10:20 PM   #514
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,355
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Thor2.

You sound more and more like an absentee landlord every day.

If you try really really hard to make your posts easier to understand and less ambiguous you may find others responding in a respectful manner. Take the above for example:

You say "Thor 2" and I guess we would assume that is the answer to Darat's question ...... yes?

But then you say this: "You sound more and more like an absentee landlord every day."

Now is this me or Darat you are describing and what is this "absentee landlord" crap all about?
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 10:27 PM   #515
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 59,926
The fact that theprestige quoted Darat in the post and not you answers your question to my satisfaction, at least.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 10:39 PM   #516
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,355
So Darat is an "absentee landlord" then? What does this mean?
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 10:48 PM   #517
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,355
Just watched a Danish movie "Thelma" about a religious girl who finds herself in personal conflict, when she gets emotional/sexual feelings towards another girl. She has epileptic fits as a consequence and the point is made quite strongly, that it is the religious/sexual thing that brings it on.

I know one can't rely on fiction to make much of an argument, but you would imagine the film makers may have put some effort into finding out, if there was some history behind this affliction.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 11:01 PM   #518
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 59,926
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So Darat is an "absentee landlord" then? What does this mean?
No idea exactly what was meant by that phrase, but it wasn't at all unclear to me who it was directed towards.
__________________
Wake up, you cardboard.
- Pixie of Key
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:05 AM   #519
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 10,675
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So Darat is an "absentee landlord" then? What does this mean?
The meaning seemed clear to me, though landlord/property is a pretty poor analogy to administrator/forum.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:04 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.