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Old 5th December 2018, 02:11 PM   #601
lomiller
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
If you don't mind could you break down why his arguments relating to how there can be an invisible border in relation to customs and goods doesn't stack up?
All he does is say an “invisible border” could solve all the problems, he never makes an argument for how what that means or how it could work. I’m not sure how you expect anyone to “break down arguments” he doesn’t bother to make.
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Old 5th December 2018, 05:28 PM   #602
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Can you please substantiate that MEP's were not able to "properly review the science and the evidence"?
I'll keep this brief as this isn't the topic of the thread but basically:

Article 20 (the bit that pertains to vaping) was tacked onto the TPD and was drafted in a rushed process called trilogue . this is basically a behind closed doors series of meeting with EU lawyers and some other interested parties, to hammer out the text of directives.

The people in the meetings for Article 20 of the TPD didn't include any pro-vaping people or anyone representing the lots of credible scientific research that was being done at the time. IIRC we had something like 7 or 8 peer reviewed papers from proper scientific journals detailing exactly how and why the directive was bad all of which was hand waved away by the trilogue committee and wasn't properly debated prior to the vote.
They drafted a dogs dinner of a directive as a result of lack of expertise and lack of consultation.

Here is a blog from the time from Clive Bates. Clive is a former director of ASH (Action on Smoking and Health) and has also worked as a civil servant for the cabinet office and Environment Agency, so in short he knows what he's talking about.

Originally Posted by Clive Bates
Shoddy drafting and improper undemocratic amendments. [...]
It simply is not credible to produce 4,500 words of new regulation in a closed and insular process between October and December 2013 with no consultation with these stakeholders. Not only has that led to poorly designed regulation, but it violates obligations set out in the EU treaties, which require consultation on legislative proposals [...]
Flawed science, inadequate analysis. For EU legislation to be good for public health, and therefore to have a firm legal base, it needs to be based on sound science and analysis. To the extent that science has been used to justify the proposals, it has drawn stinging criticism from the scientists whose work has been cited. See: Scientific errors in the Tobacco Products Directive – a letter sent by scientists to the European Union and follow-up. The supporting analysis for this part of the directive is completely inadequate: there is no impact assessment or credible justification for the measures. The little there is (a one page fact sheet) has been dismissed by experts as a set of scientifically baseless assertions. [...]
To top all that off the President of the European Parliament at the time Martin Schulz refused initially to allow split and separate voting for different aspects of the TPD (which was and is, in most part, a good directive) changing his mind an hour before the vote took place (Feb 26th 2014) then he refused to allow more time for stakeholders to make their case against article 18A (which later became Article 20) so the whole thing got passed in a very rushed vote. (this is the political dirty trick I am referring to)

MEP Martin Callanan (now Lord Callanan) stood up in the EP immediately before the vote to try to make the case for having more time to review Article18A and was shut down in short order.


I am not saying it's undemocratic because I didn't get my way, I am saying it's undemocratic because directives that effect millions of Europeans should at least be drafted by people who have expertise on the subject at hand and then properly debated before being voted on.

It turns out that many EU directives are drafted using trilogue, which seems to me to be a very flawed process.

EU directives, by and large, reflect the desires of corporate lobbyists and not what would actually be best for the people.

I'll happily go into more depth if you are interested on the TPD, but not in this thread. The full text of the TPD is here.

Last edited by Ambrosia; 5th December 2018 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 5th December 2018, 05:45 PM   #603
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Since it appears that it's just England who wants to leave, couldn't you put the hard border between England and the rest of the UK?
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Old 5th December 2018, 06:06 PM   #604
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I am missing the leap in logic that goes from this to '...and so the only thing we can do is throw the entire country under the bus, put the economy into meltdown and let the corpse be picked over by a cabal of disaster capitalists'
Hyperbole much?

I never thought that the Leave vote would win. At the time the pollsters and the bookmakers (who are usually a better gauge of the true odds of events happening) had it pegged at 60% Remain 40% Leave.

I expected Remain to win something like 55/45 and for the high % of Leave votes to kick off a debate within the EU about reform.

There wasn't an option on the ballot paper for "remain and reform" given the recent, at the time Greece debt crisis, and what looked like similar impending scenarios for Ireland Spain and Italy I thought that we'd be better off out of the EU. So I voted Leave. Lets not forget that while the Greek debacle was ongoing it tanked the value of the Euro and there were were plenty of people who were very glad we withdrew from the ERM back in the day.

What I wasn't expecting, at all, was how spineless and inept our current crop of politicians would turn out to be. Mays Brexit deal is a disaster, Corbyns Labour is utterly unelectable and the current govt is beholden to the whims of the DUP (the DU ******* P of *all* parties!!!) or that Brexit would drag on and on and on. The way things are going it'll be a decade until it's resolved.
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Old 6th December 2018, 01:24 AM   #605
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Since it appears that it's just England who wants to leave, couldn't you put the hard border between England and the rest of the UK?
And the people who also voted to leave but don't live in England, for example the thirty odd percentage of folk who voted in Scotland to leave, should be moved to England?
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Old 6th December 2018, 01:34 AM   #606
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And the people who also voted to leave but don't live in England, for example the thirty odd percentage of folk who voted in Scotland to leave, should be moved to England?
As sane as playing football/rugby with Northern Ireland border.
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:37 AM   #607
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Remain is the sensible choice, but circumstantially constrained.

May's deal is the pragmatic choice, a bastard child of circumstance.

No deal is the ideologue's wet dream, leading to dire circumstances.


The circumstantial evidence is that neither Brexit nor Remain will do, and there can be no middle compromise. There is but one thing to do: hang David Cameron in effigy from London Tower and have fireworks. Following that, it's every man for himself... Personally, I'd go punch pimply Farage in his face, then start smoking cigars again, now unlikely to be a cause of death. Silver linings, old chap.
I find it worrying that, in these times, the above is what a perfectly reasonable reaction looks like.

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Old 6th December 2018, 02:39 AM   #608
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
What I wasn't expecting, at all, was how spineless and inept our current crop of politicians would turn out to be. Mays Brexit deal is a disaster, Corbyns Labour is utterly unelectable and the current govt is beholden to the whims of the DUP (the DU ******* P of *all* parties!!!) or that Brexit would drag on and on and on. The way things are going it'll be a decade until it's resolved.
But I don't (and never have) seen how the deal could be anything but some form of Norway, almost entirely down to the Irish border issue (well, that and not wanting to shaft our economy entirely). Of course, May has managed to come up with something even worse, but hey ho.

The idea that "it'll all be OK in a few years" is crap. Those "few years" (or 50 years if you believe Mogg) will screw over a generation.
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Old 6th December 2018, 04:22 AM   #609
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
All he does is say an “invisible border” could solve all the problems, he never makes an argument for how what that means or how it could work. I’m not sure how you expect anyone to “break down arguments” he doesn’t bother to make.
For example he could have pointed to any border in the world that acts like he says this one will.
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Old 6th December 2018, 04:39 AM   #610
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
As sane as playing football/rugby with Northern Ireland border.
Especially since there's no peace deal hanging in the balance on the English border.
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Old 6th December 2018, 04:51 AM   #611
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't think hiring a few migrants makes a company 'globalist'.
.
The UK requirement for seasonal agricultural workers is around seventy thousand.
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Old 6th December 2018, 04:53 AM   #612
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
Loathe to post from such a website, but this MP lays out why he thinks a border between NI and the UK can be avoided. Are his arguments unsound?

https://brexitcentral.com/avoid-hard...single-market/
Utter nonsense. But what else would be expected from that person...
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Old 6th December 2018, 05:16 AM   #613
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And the people who also voted to leave but don't live in England, for example the thirty odd percentage of folk who voted in Scotland to leave, should be moved to England?
Well they could do, or they could stay in the EU with the 70% who wanted to stay in. I mean that would certainly be fairer than pulling the 70% out to please the 30% who want to stay.

Or they could stay in the Customs Union and Single Market like Northern Ireland.
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Old 6th December 2018, 05:22 AM   #614
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
Hyperbole much?

I never thought that the Leave vote would win. At the time the pollsters and the bookmakers (who are usually a better gauge of the true odds of events happening) had it pegged at 60% Remain 40% Leave.

I expected Remain to win something like 55/45 and for the high % of Leave votes to kick off a debate within the EU about reform.

There wasn't an option on the ballot paper for "remain and reform" given the recent, at the time Greece debt crisis, and what looked like similar impending scenarios for Ireland Spain and Italy I thought that we'd be better off out of the EU. So I voted Leave. Lets not forget that while the Greek debacle was ongoing it tanked the value of the Euro and there were were plenty of people who were very glad we withdrew from the ERM back in the day.

What I wasn't expecting, at all, was how spineless and inept our current crop of politicians would turn out to be. Mays Brexit deal is a disaster, Corbyns Labour is utterly unelectable and the current govt is beholden to the whims of the DUP (the DU ******* P of *all* parties!!!) or that Brexit would drag on and on and on. The way things are going it'll be a decade until it's resolved.
Your entire reasoning just comes across as a childish temper tantrum. You voted to leave but you never thought it would win?!? You wanted to leave because of some imperfect legislation that happened to affect you personally but ignore the likely results of that vote that will affect millions.

And if you think May's deal is a disaster perhaps you could outline what version of leaving would be superior? Because there simply doesn't exist a version of leave that is achievable that doesn't end up with us worse off than when we started.

Of course it will be at least a decade until it is resolved. We have been building the thing for decades and strengthening our links with Europe all the time. Does anyone but the clinically insane think that these things can be undone in a matter of months or worse that you can just walk away and not suffer the consequences?

It's like deciding to leave a flight midway over the Atlantic because you decided you want to go to Spain instead. |You can ask the pilot to reroute all you want but he isn't going to and you may not want to wait until you land in America and have to pay again for a flight back but the option of opening the door and jumping out isn't one that anyone with any sense would take seriously.
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Old 6th December 2018, 05:43 AM   #615
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And the people who also voted to leave but don't live in England, for example the thirty odd percentage of folk who voted in Scotland to leave, should be moved to England?
Sure, there will be plenty of space for 1½ million Scots Leavers in England after 15 million English Remainers move to Scotland.
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Old 6th December 2018, 05:57 AM   #616
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
… It's like deciding to leave a flight midway over the Atlantic because you decided you want to go to Spain instead. |You can ask the pilot to reroute all you want but he isn't going to and you may not want to wait until you land in America and have to pay again for a flight back but the option of opening the door and jumping out isn't one that anyone with any sense would take seriously.
But remarkably that's exactly what happened: The Vote Leave campaign promised we'd negotiate a stop-off in Spain before we got off the plane, then it turned out there was no way to do that so we just jumped out of the plane anyway leaving David Davies to build us a parachute while we plummeted.

Now the argument is over whether to use the wonky parachute or not, even though it turns out we can also simply choose to get back on the plane.

The more rampant Leavers are pounding the table and insisting the Will of the People was to leap out of the plane, when the actual vote was to go to Spain. The polls, meanwhile, indicate we've gone off the idea of Spain.
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Old 6th December 2018, 06:03 AM   #617
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
The more rampant Leavers are pounding the table and insisting the Will of the People was to leap out of the plane, when the actual vote was to go to Spain not to go to New York. The polls, meanwhile, indicate we've gone off the idea of Spain New York may be OK after all.
FTFY.

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Old 6th December 2018, 06:13 AM   #618
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I'm still massively frustrated by the absolute lack of consideration for the fact that the referendum was flawed by illegal activity.

Why the whole of the media is still pretending it's valid is beyond me.
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Old 6th December 2018, 06:20 AM   #619
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm still massively frustrated by the absolute lack of consideration for the fact that the referendum was flawed by illegal activity.

Why the whole of the media is still pretending it's valid is beyond me.
Bearing in mind that the ground was prepared by a fair sized segment of said media waging a decades long anti-EU propaganda campaign, I don't find it so far beyond me.

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Old 6th December 2018, 06:23 AM   #620
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Bearing in mind that the ground was prepared by a fair sized segment of said media waging a decades long anti-EU propaganda campaign, I don't find it so far beyond me.

Dave
Given this from just yesterday:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46460194

"The company which the Electoral Commission suspects may have been behind Britain's biggest political donation has no registered address - meaning it has failed to fulfil a key legal requirement - the BBC has found."

But apparently, that's not at all relevant to the various talking heads or random, uneducated idiots they get to chatter on the BBC.

I would have thought the first issue of the day would be "This illegal activity by the leave campaign, does it invalidate the result of the referendum?"

Apparently my journalistic instincts are way off...



EDIT:

David Mitchell and Robert Webb demonstrate the current state of UK news reporting:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQnd5ilKx2Y
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Old 6th December 2018, 06:33 AM   #621
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https://www.ft.com/content/58a4c534-...6-2022a0b02a6c

David Allen Green in the FT.
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https://www.ft.com/content/58a4c534-...6-2022a0b02a6c

...every expression of concern about the Irish backstop is an implicit admission that the UK is unlikely to have a relationship agreement to enter into by 2022 — indeed, it may not be ready for some years after that. Therefore, the supposed distinction between no-deal Brexit and the deal is to a large extent artificial: the real choice is between no deal now and no deal in 2022.
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Old 6th December 2018, 06:54 AM   #622
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm still massively frustrated by the absolute lack of consideration for the fact that the referendum was flawed by illegal activity.

Why the whole of the media is still pretending it's valid is beyond me.
Because it is insulting to argue that position.

"I would have won except a significant portion of my supporters are stupid, stupid people who were swayed by just a little too much advertisement. These stupid people should not have seen those ads purchased with illegal expenditures."
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Old 6th December 2018, 07:14 AM   #623
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8668771.html

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It is “very likely” that the UK voted for Brexit because of illegal overspending by the Vote Leave campaign, according to an Oxford professor’s evidence to the High Court.
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Old 6th December 2018, 07:26 AM   #624
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
"The company which the Electoral Commission suspects may have been behind Britain's biggest political donation has no registered address - meaning it has failed to fulfil a key legal requirement - the BBC has found."
Reading the article it seems more like the BBC doesn't understand the requirements for registered offices:
Quote:
It is a legal requirement for every company that is registered in the UK to provide a registered office address. This address is where organisations such as Companies House, HMRC and UK tax authorities will contact your company with important reminders and serve legal notices.
There is no requirement that the registered office has to be where you actually trade.
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Old 6th December 2018, 07:30 AM   #625
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
If I lived in the EU and read that, I would want the UK gone so they don't pollute the gene pool.
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Old 6th December 2018, 07:35 AM   #626
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
There is no requirement that the registered office has to be where you actually trade.
The article makes no suggestion that it has to be that. The article, rather, points out that occupants of the current registered address of the company denied that they were in any way associated with it, indicating that the current registered address is fraudulent. It also points out that the publicly available accounts of the organisation are not, in fact, publicly available, meaning thatthe company is in violation of the terms by which it qualifies for limited disclosure exemption. But I'm sure you could read all that perfectly clearly too.

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Old 6th December 2018, 07:39 AM   #627
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If I lived in the EU and read that, I would want the UK gone so they don't pollute the gene pool.
???????????????????

How's Donald doing?
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Old 6th December 2018, 07:41 AM   #628
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
???????????????????

How's Donald doing?
Still going on like a floater in a public pool.
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Old 6th December 2018, 07:56 AM   #629
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
You wanted to leave because of some imperfect legislation that happened to affect you personally but ignore the likely results of that vote that will affect millions.
What about the millions of people across Europe affected adversely by the TPD? Vaping did more to curb smoking prevalence across Europe than anything else has to date. Smoking prevalence in the UK has hovered around about 20% for many years. These figures from 2016 show that smoking prevalence has dropped to 15% while vaping now accounts for 5%.

NRT that's pushed by the pharma companies doesn't work very well, but they make lots of money selling it anyway. Smoking cessation products account for £2bn in annual sales.

My argument about this isn't about me. It's about helping smokers quit smoking either by switching to vaping before stopping, or just switching to vaping as a long term alternative.

Smoking is the root cause of something like 700,000 deaths annualy in the EU. We should have EU legislation that supports THR (Tobacco Harm Reduction) as much as possible. We should be able, for example, to buy Snus. Which is a Swedish smokeless tobacco. You can't. It's banned by a different EU directive everywhere except Sweden. (Sweden has a smoking rate of 5% compared to 15-20% for the rest of Europe)

If we had smoking laws in Europe like they do in Sweden it would save us all boatloads of money that the NHS spends on smoking related diseases and would allow more people to live longer.

But we can't have that, because pharma lobbyists.

This is just one directive, how much of the rest of EU legislation reflects the desires of lobbyists rather than the people of Europe?

Quote:
Of course it will be at least a decade until it is resolved. We have been building the thing for decades and strengthening our links with Europe all the time. Does anyone but the clinically insane think that these things can be undone in a matter of months or worse that you can just walk away and not suffer the consequences?
I'm not suggesting it can be undone in months. I am suggesting that we should have been a lot further down the road by now than we are. It's been almost 2 and a half years.

If the best our politicians can manage is Mays deal, then they should hold their hands up and say "this is too difficult to work out, we either ought to Remain or have a hard No Deal exit" and hold another referendum.

We all know that if another referendum happened then Remain would win handily.

I think that the EU is badly flawed, but I think that remaining in it is much better than spending the next elevnty years arguing over it.
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Old 6th December 2018, 07:57 AM   #630
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Reading the article it seems more like the BBC doesn't understand the requirements for registered offices:

There is no requirement that the registered office has to be where you actually trade.
That doesn't make "has no registered address" okay.

Nor does it make "publicly available accounts" which aren't publicly available okay.
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Old 6th December 2018, 08:12 AM   #631
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If I lived in the EU and read that, I would want the UK gone so they don't pollute the gene pool.
So says someone living in a land so awash with political bribery that one can float coast-to-coast on a sea of cash. Citizens United: OMG, hang me from the tree of Liberty, too g-damn embarrassing.

***

Wondering out loud: Couldn't the Withdrawal Agreement go forward without the backstop and political agreements? That is, just the so-called withdrawal arrangements (WAs)? I understand there are quite a number of sticky items that really do need to be well-managed under deal or no-deal Brexit, and that these are spelled out in the WAs, such as what happens in pending contracts, court cases, etc., as well as the future of EU and UK citizens in each other's territories.

Or would the WAs kick in automatically even if there is a "no-deal" Brexit?
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Old 6th December 2018, 08:18 AM   #632
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post

If we had smoking laws in Europe like they do in Sweden it would save us all boatloads of money that the NHS spends on smoking related diseases and would allow more people to live longer.
And yet isn't Sweden in the EU?
Quote:

But we can't have that, because pharma lobbyists.

This is just one directive, how much of the rest of EU legislation reflects the desires of lobbyists rather than the people of Europe?
And UK legislation is free from lobbyists?
Quote:

I'm not suggesting it can be undone in months. I am suggesting that we should have been a lot further down the road by now than we are. It's been almost 2 and a half years.

If the best our politicians can manage is Mays deal, then they should hold their hands up and say "this is too difficult to work out, we either ought to Remain or have a hard No Deal exit" and hold another referendum.

We all know that if another referendum happened then Remain would win handily.

I think that the EU is badly flawed, but I think that remaining in it is much better than spending the next elevnty years arguing over it.
I agree the EU is flawed but our best bet is to try to stay in and fix it from within rather than sit on is borders as a supplicant. And the UK could do with a bit of fixing as well but that's for another thread.
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Old 6th December 2018, 08:22 AM   #633
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
What about the millions of people across Europe affected adversely by the TPD? Vaping did more to curb smoking prevalence across Europe than anything else has to date. Smoking prevalence in the UK has hovered around about 20% for many years. These figures from 2016 show that smoking prevalence has dropped to 15% while vaping now accounts for 5%.

NRT that's pushed by the pharma companies doesn't work very well, but they make lots of money selling it anyway. Smoking cessation products account for £2bn in annual sales.

My argument about this isn't about me. It's about helping smokers quit smoking either by switching to vaping before stopping, or just switching to vaping as a long term alternative.

Smoking is the root cause of something like 700,000 deaths annualy in the EU. We should have EU legislation that supports THR (Tobacco Harm Reduction) as much as possible. We should be able, for example, to buy Snus. Which is a Swedish smokeless tobacco. You can't. It's banned by a different EU directive everywhere except Sweden. (Sweden has a smoking rate of 5% compared to 15-20% for the rest of Europe)

If we had smoking laws in Europe like they do in Sweden it would save us all boatloads of money that the NHS spends on smoking related diseases and would allow more people to live longer.

But we can't have that, because pharma lobbyists.
The pharma lobbyists are in Brussels because that's where the legislation happens.

If the UK wasn't in the EU, you think the smoking companies would not send lobbyist to Westminster? Do you think that UK politicians are any less susceptible to lobbying than EU ones?


All you're doing is moving the problem and making the country poorer by doing so.

If you think lobbyists are simply an EU problem then you're somewhat misinformed.


This is quite a good example of why Brexit happened (well, that and the illegal activity and overspending), there's an uncritical acceptance that it's all Europe's fault.

Lobbying is a global problem. It certainly happens in the UK. Somehow, however, the blame for the problems caused by lobbying have been assigned a European origin, hence the above.



It really has been an excellent, what one might call 'character assassination' that the moral less British press have done on Europe.

And people with otherwise good critical thinking skills have swallowed it hook, line and sinker due to 40 years of unchallenged ********.
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Old 6th December 2018, 08:51 AM   #634
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
So says someone living in a land so awash with political bribery that one can float coast-to-coast on a sea of cash. Citizens United: OMG, hang me from the tree of Liberty, too g-damn embarrassing.

***

Wondering out loud: Couldn't the Withdrawal Agreement go forward without the backstop and political agreements? That is, just the so-called withdrawal arrangements (WAs)? I understand there are quite a number of sticky items that really do need to be well-managed under deal or no-deal Brexit, and that these are spelled out in the WAs, such as what happens in pending contracts, court cases, etc., as well as the future of EU and UK citizens in each other's territories.

Or would the WAs kick in automatically even if there is a "no-deal" Brexit?
Citizens United did not go far enough.
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Old 6th December 2018, 09:00 AM   #635
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Sure, there will be plenty of space for 1½ million Scots Leavers in England after 15 million English Remainers move to Scotland.
Joking aside, due to circumstances beyond our control the wife and I are going to sell up and move Northwards, I'm arguing for the Scottish side of the border because of Brexit and it's likely long term consequences.
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Old 6th December 2018, 09:13 AM   #636
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Joking aside, due to circumstances beyond our control the wife and I are going to sell up and move Northwards, I'm arguing for the Scottish side of the border because of Brexit and it's likely long term consequences.
And, joking sort-of aside, in the longer term my kids will probably qualify for future Scottish passports due to me.
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Old 6th December 2018, 09:24 AM   #637
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I always thought the EU was protectionist and only played by WTO rules with regard to Trump tariffs. That's why I don't fully understand all this talk from Brexiteers that we conduct all our trade on WTO rules with the EU after Brexit. There is a bit of waffle about this in this recent newspaper article:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-a8668311.html

Quote:
What the WTO does is lay down a baseline for trade between member states. However, no member trades on “WTO terms” alone. All 164 of them have negotiated better access to at least one market through some kind of bilateral agreement in addition to their WTO relationship.
This is because the WTO does not ensure the removal of all barriers to trade. Lord Lilley seems to give the impression he doesn’t understand this.

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Old 6th December 2018, 09:58 AM   #638
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I always thought the EU was protectionist and only played by WTO rules with regard to Trump tariffs. That's why I don't fully understand all this talk from Brexiteers that we conduct all our trade on WTO rules with the EU after Brexit. There is a bit of waffle about this in this recent newspaper article:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-a8668311.html
Major world powers already have laundry lists of "disputes" to bring up and hamstring the UK in arbitration for decades. If Brexiteers thought Brussels was litigious, deliberative, and arcane, they've got a rude awakening coming.
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Old 6th December 2018, 09:59 AM   #639
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
So says someone living in a land so awash with political bribery that one can float coast-to-coast on a sea of cash. Citizens United: OMG, hang me from the tree of Liberty, too g-damn embarrassing.

***

Wondering out loud: Couldn't the Withdrawal Agreement go forward without the backstop and political agreements? That is, just the so-called withdrawal arrangements (WAs)? I understand there are quite a number of sticky items that really do need to be well-managed under deal or no-deal Brexit, and that these are spelled out in the WAs, such as what happens in pending contracts, court cases, etc., as well as the future of EU and UK citizens in each other's territories.

Or would the WAs kick in automatically even if there is a "no-deal" Brexit?
No the WA can't go ahead without the backstop because the backstop is how the problems with the UK withdrawal are resolved. Without the backstop there would need to be a border in Ireland and neither side want that.

And quite frankly if we can't come up with solutions to these issues we have no business withdrawing from anything until we can.
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Old 6th December 2018, 10:01 AM   #640
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As I posted before even LeaveHQ said that trading on WTO terms would be bad
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One can say, unequivocally, that the UK could not survive as a trading nation by relying on the WTO Option. It would be an unmitigated disaster, and no responsible government should allow it. The option should be rejected.
http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blo...s9eTz74nTWYNpU
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