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#2881 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2015
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#2882 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 9,782
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Reportedly, and I can't find a news article, the two sisters or roommates who lived, I think, on Botham Jean's floor, only told the police immediately after the shooting, they heard two gunshots. Later, not sure how much later, the lawyer the Jean family hired, S. Lee Meritt, claimed the women heard much more.
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#2883 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,049
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I would exercise caution in depending too much on eyewitness testimony of that nature. That sort of one step removed from the immediate area after the fact stuff is notoriously unreliable.
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#2884 |
Lackey
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Location: South East, UK
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#2885 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,775
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#2886 |
Lackey
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Location: South East, UK
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#2887 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,351
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The arrest warrant and the search warrant give two contradictory accounts:
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#2888 |
Philosopher
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#2889 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 6,499
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"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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#2890 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 21,647
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We already discussed the "contradiction" upthread. It isn't actually a contradiction and instead is about an ambiguously written sentence made by a desk cop.
"An unknown male, inside the apartment, confronted the officer at the door." Jean wasn't at the door. Guyger was at the door. |
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#2891 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 45,170
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Ok what are the statistics on that? Most break ins are not armed after all so what is the good chance? And of course if you shoot your spouse well that is just plain funny. Better a dead spouse than not shooting an unarmed burglar.
This is why he was mistaken for not being armed and simply shooting her as soon as she opened the door. That is the true american way. |
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#2892 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 6,499
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"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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#2893 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
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#2894 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 45,170
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#2895 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
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#2896 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 45,170
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#2897 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,049
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__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
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#2898 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 21,647
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Here is the report that says the two sisters each have their own apartment near Jean.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=685 |
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#2899 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 45,170
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Like this heroic cop.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/07/u...gun-video.html Nothing wrong or criminal about pulling a gun to threaten someone who legally purchased candy if you are an off duty cop for example. |
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#2900 |
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Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
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"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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#2901 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
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#2902 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,351
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We don't know what "lawful orders" she gave or how. We only know that as a veteran cop, she knew what to say to put herself in the best light. By her own account she shot at a silhouette across a dark room. Even if she had screamed "Police! Get on the floor!," did she give him enough time to comprehend what was happening? More likely he started to say something like "What's this about ....?" followed by "Bang! bang!"
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#2903 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,351
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Your link says the sisters contradicted the police affidavit, not they contradicted any previous account they gave. It doesn't even say the police interviewed them.
https://www.star-telegram.com/news/l...218154635.html |
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#2904 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 21,647
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There aren't really any distance limits. The term confront is generally about the situation being a face-to-face thing. But it might even extend to something like a telephone call. You can confront a person who you are talking to on the phone. The term is mostly (or even entirely) related to the nature of the interaction and not the distance between the interactors.
Originally Posted by Bob001
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#2905 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Right, and I didn't say that my link would contain information about what the sisters said to the police. I posted it to newyorkguy because I didn't want anyone to think that I had invented the information about the sisters living separately. His link says that they are roommates while my link says that each has their own apartment.
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#2906 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,351
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Yeah, except in this particular instance "confront" was used to justify her use of deadly force in the belief that she was in imminent danger. An angry phone call would be a different kind of "confrontation." If he was across the room she had time to withdraw, turn on the lights, shout more, etc., etc.
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#2907 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
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This is non sequitur for our current discussion.
Guyger was at the door. Jean was not at the door. Guyger did not contradict herself in statements to the police. Instead a desk cop wrote a sentence which could be misunderstood as being a contradiction coming from Guyger. Guyger didn't tell the police that Jean was at the door. |
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#2908 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 21,647
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"The law enforcement official said police spoke to one of those witnesses the night of the shooting and the witness did not offer that account to police. Law enforcement, however, is looking into those accounts." http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1368 |
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#2909 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,259
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it might be a by department basis here in NJ. I know a town where the officers are not allowed to take home their municipal service weapon after shift. I had a friend that was a detective at another town that carried all the time but don't know if it was that town's issue or not.
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#2910 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,395
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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#2911 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Nov 2012
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#2912 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 21,193
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
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#2913 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 21,193
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
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#2914 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,029
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#2915 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,029
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Actually, I think we previously got to the conclusion that the statement in the search affidavit was based on the statement by the neighbor in the hallway that she heard Guyger confronting a man at the door. The neighbor meant that Guyger was at the door, not the man. The police originally misinterpreted the statement thinking she meant the man was at the door. The neighbor later clarified that she meant Guyger was at the door and that she didn't know where the man was.
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Heaven forbid someone reads these words and claims to be adversely affected by them, thus ensuring a barrage of lawsuits filed under the guise of protecting the unknowing victims who were stupid enough to read this and believe it! - Kevin Trudeau |
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#2916 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,029
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The police department did not interview her because there was a possibility of violating her 5th amendment rights against self-incrimination. Under the 5th amendment, the government cannot compel a person to testify against themselves. That means the government can't take any action against someone for refusing to testify.
But because the government grants certain authority to police officers, they lose a bit of that right. A police officer can be compelled to testify when force is used or face termination. There was initially confusion about whether this was a police shooting or whether Guyger was acting as a citizen. If the police questioned her and later charged her as a civilian, she could claim that she thought she was being interviewed as an officer and was compelled to testify, even though she wasn't. That would throw a wrench into the investigation. that's a big reason why the Rangers were called in to take over. |
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Heaven forbid someone reads these words and claims to be adversely affected by them, thus ensuring a barrage of lawsuits filed under the guise of protecting the unknowing victims who were stupid enough to read this and believe it! - Kevin Trudeau |
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#2917 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,029
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As I've said, I think the reason manslaughter is still mentioned is simply because it is a lesser included offense that would be considered for any murder charge.
I still a bit baffled about the manslaughter charge on the arrest warrant. It may be that they thought it was the easiest way to get a warrant and that charging murder could cause delays and questions by the judge. Politics and publicity may have also played a role. The Rangers knew it was likely the case would be taken over by a local DA. If they charged murder and the DA downgraded that to a lesser charge, it could cause the DA to lose public support (right before an election) and fan the flames of public outrage. It would put the DA in a tight spot. Starting with manslaughter cuts the DA some slack and allows the DA to upgrade to murder if she wants. In a legal sense manslaughter doesn't seem to apply, but in a practical sense it worked. |
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Heaven forbid someone reads these words and claims to be adversely affected by them, thus ensuring a barrage of lawsuits filed under the guise of protecting the unknowing victims who were stupid enough to read this and believe it! - Kevin Trudeau |
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#2918 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,029
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Heaven forbid someone reads these words and claims to be adversely affected by them, thus ensuring a barrage of lawsuits filed under the guise of protecting the unknowing victims who were stupid enough to read this and believe it! - Kevin Trudeau |
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#2919 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,029
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Possibly. But to be considered a mistake of fact it has to be a "reasonable belief" which means you would have to actually own a car that could be mistaken for the one you hotwired, explain why you would think that was your car when your car was somewhere else, actually have a broken key, and so on. I've told the story here before about the time I stole a bike. I had a bike in college that was some cheap off-brand bike that had been in the family for about 15 years. The small dormitory I was in didn't have a bike rack, so I chained it up outside to a back stairway that was basically a fire exit. One day I rode my bike into town to get some things and then rode back to one of the school buildings. A few days later I walked out the rear of the dorm and found my bike chained up inside to a radiator. Someone had taken the lock off my bike, moved it inside, and chained it up. I got some bolt cutters and freed my bike. As I as riding across campus I stopped to chat with a friend. He asked about the bike because he had seen one just like it sitting behind one of the school buildings for the past few days. That's when it dawned on me: This isn't my bike! I had ridden the bike from town to the building. When I left the building I forgot that I had ridden my bike there and had walked home. My bike was still sitting behind the building. By some weird coincidence, a person in my small dorm happened to have the same color off-brand 15-year-old bike that they chained up in a odd place that was right next to the odd place where I usually chained up my bike and had only done so (I had never seen the other bike there before) during the couple of days that I happened to have forgotten that I left my bike somewhere else. Should I have gone to jail as a bike thief? |
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Heaven forbid someone reads these words and claims to be adversely affected by them, thus ensuring a barrage of lawsuits filed under the guise of protecting the unknowing victims who were stupid enough to read this and believe it! - Kevin Trudeau |
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#2920 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 21,647
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I don't remember forum members coming to a conclusion or consensus on the "contradiction". I also don't remember a witness telling the press that she needed to make a clarification about something she said earlier. I need some help finding those things in this big thread.
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