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Tags "Hellstorm" , war crimes , World War II history

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Old 11th June 2016, 10:09 AM   #161
Craig B
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
True. I should have said "they didn't start out with the Holocaust" which was more what I meant.
Yes that's right.
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Old 11th June 2016, 11:46 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I get a little tired of people on the left trying to minimize the horror of the Stalin regime.
And if you are talking about the whole death toll of Stalin's Russia,a Million is way too low. More then that died in the Ukarinian Famine alone.
Whom are you addressing there? Who has stated that the total death toll in Stalin's Russia was a mere million? That is a plausible figure for the number executed during the purge of 1937-38; but has anyone suggested that this is the "whole death toll" of the Stalin period?

It is not even the total death toll of the 1937-38 purge, because in addition to the executions, which can be reasonably estimated, a large but unknown number of victims died, or were informally put to death, in detention or exile during that time; and the toll of victims of the 1932-33 famine (not only in Ukraine) was much higher than those of the later purge. Certainly some millions died.

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Old 21st June 2016, 11:09 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Hey, when we rounded up people and put them in camps, we didn't turn them into soap. That's how I sleep well at night.

Seriously, though, there are no good guys in war. There's just less bad.
I hate to break it to you but nobody turned anybody into soap.
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Old 21st June 2016, 11:24 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I hate to break it to you but nobody turned anybody into soap.
Figure of speech. Fudbucker's point remains perfectly cromulent.
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Old 21st June 2016, 04:05 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I hate to break it to you but nobody turned anybody into soap.
Nitpick: it has not been done on an industrial scale, but the Nazis have experimented at the Danzig Anatomical Institute to make soap from fat from corpses from nearby concentration camp Stutthof.
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Old 21st June 2016, 04:12 PM   #166
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Wait, wait! Johnson's Baby Soap isn't made from babies? I thought no more tears meant they were filtered out.
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Old 21st June 2016, 09:27 PM   #167
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To compare two evils though.
Stalin subjected the Ukraine to horrible persecutions, starved it for years etc etc.
When the Nazi's invaded they were hailed as liberators from communism.
Yet by the time the Red army returned it was greeted as the liberators of the Ukraine again. Nazi occupation was so horrible that even 2,5 years was considered worse than anything Stalin did.
And this view is quite prevalent in the whole of eastern europe. Yes, the communists were bad, but at least they weren't nazis.
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Old 22nd June 2016, 01:43 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
To compare two evils though.
Stalin subjected the Ukraine to horrible persecutions, starved it for years etc etc.
When the Nazi's invaded they were hailed as liberators from communism.
Yet by the time the Red army returned it was greeted as the liberators of the Ukraine again. Nazi occupation was so horrible that even 2,5 years was considered worse than anything Stalin did.
And this view is quite prevalent in the whole of eastern europe. Yes, the communists were bad, but at least they weren't nazis.
Definitely one of the major points where Nazi ideology got in the way of strategy.
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Old 22nd June 2016, 01:54 AM   #169
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How much difference would it have made on the Eastern front if the Nazis hadn't been both inhuman and stupid? If they had been even halfway decent in their treatment of the local populace, I assume they would have saved a lot of trouble and manpower that had to be kept back for peacekeeping duties and making sure supply lines stay open.
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Old 22nd June 2016, 03:00 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
How much difference would it have made on the Eastern front if the Nazis hadn't been both inhuman and stupid? If they had been even halfway decent in their treatment of the local populace, I assume they would have saved a lot of trouble and manpower that had to be kept back for peacekeeping duties and making sure supply lines stay open.
That's the basic idea of this reading by Andrew Roberts, concerning the strategic mistakes by Nazi Germany, in the US Army War College.
It's fascinating to listen to.

The end conclusion, why Hitler lost the war? Because he was a Nazi. He couldn't be anything else, even if that would be much more advantageous.
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Old 22nd June 2016, 03:22 AM   #171
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Error. Deleted.

Last edited by Craig B; 22nd June 2016 at 03:24 AM.
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Old 22nd June 2016, 03:23 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
That's the basic idea of this reading by Andrew Roberts, concerning the strategic mistakes by Nazi Germany, in the US Army War College.
It's fascinating to listen to.

The end conclusion, why Hitler lost the war? Because he was a Nazi. He couldn't be anything else, even if that would be much more advantageous.
He was a Nazi, but in his intentions for the conquered lands he had another then relatively recent model "The Volga will be Germany's Mississippi", he proclaimed.

Last edited by Craig B; 22nd June 2016 at 03:46 AM. Reason: Typo.
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Old 22nd June 2016, 03:28 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
He was a Nazi, but in his intentions for the conquered lands he had another then relatively recent model "The Volga will be Grrmany's Mississippi", he proclaimed.
Apologies.
It seems I forgot the link to the reading in question.
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Old 22nd June 2016, 05:38 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
The end conclusion, why Hitler lost the war? Because he was a Nazi. He couldn't be anything else, even if that would be much more advantageous.

If Russia, Britain and the Commonwealth, and the U.S. are aligned against Germany, I don't think poor Nazi leadership would change the outcome. Attaining the outcome might take longer and come at a higher cost than was the case historically, but the outcome seems hard to change.
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Old 22nd June 2016, 06:21 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
If Russia, Britain and the Commonwealth, and the U.S. are aligned against Germany, I don't think poor Nazi leadership would change the outcome. Attaining the outcome might take longer and come at a higher cost than was the case historically, but the outcome seems hard to change.
True.
But the question then to be asked is this one.
Why were Russia, Britain and the US aligned against Germany?

Because of Nazi actions.
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Old 22nd June 2016, 06:36 PM   #176
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I am a little disturbed that some people here are ,frankly, taking the line that Stalin was not as bad a Hitler because Uncle Joe followed a left wing ideology. A person killed because his disagreed with left wing ideology is just as dead as somebody who ws killed because they disagreed with right wing ideology.
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Old 22nd June 2016, 09:15 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am a little disturbed that some people here are ,frankly, taking the line that Stalin was not as bad a Hitler because Uncle Joe followed a left wing ideology. A person killed because his disagreed with left wing ideology is just as dead as somebody who ws killed because they disagreed with right wing ideology.
Can you justify that assertion? What are these people saying about the left wing ideology? You have previously accused people of trying to minimise the horror of the Stalin regime; but I don't believe that they were doing any such thing. We have discussed this in #123 and #162, and I don't think you answered me adequately. If you could now do so, I would be grateful.

Hitler is being accused of intending not merely to oppress, but to enslave, the peoples of conquered territories; and colonise their lands, so that they would disappear and be replaced by ethnic Germans. References have been given, and sources linked.

This in general was not Stalin's MO. He conquered huge areas of E Europe, but he didn't establish colonies of ethnic Russians with Polish or Romanian slave labourers. He oppressed and exploited territories through puppet regimes based on a depraved version of the "left wing ideology" to which you refer.

But that doesn't mean people weren't killed by his crimes. Nobody here seems to be saying that people weren't killed by them. Merely that he wasn't engaged entirely in the same sorts of crimes as Hitler, and that therefore the regimes he established, while oppressive and frequently murderous, were more stable and durable. Compare communist Poland with Hitler's ephemeral "General Government" regime.

To underline the differences in styles of criminality; it is noted that of Hitler's victims, more than 90% were non-Germans, while of Stalin's victims about the same proportion were his own subjects. Very different, and a very significant difference. The greatest number of Stalin's victims were peasants in his own territory (of whom millions died in consequence of changes in the system of land tenure), members of his own political party, and officers in his own army. In Germany the corresponding social groups were, on the contrary, especially favoured by Hitler. Individual political opponents were ruthlessly eliminated by both tyrants, but random terror killing to dissipate potential sources of dissidence was perpetrated much more by Stalin than by Hitler. And so on.
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Old 22nd June 2016, 11:21 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am a little disturbed that some people here are ,frankly, taking the line that Stalin was not as bad a Hitler because Uncle Joe followed a left wing ideology. A person killed because his disagreed with left wing ideology is just as dead as somebody who ws killed because they disagreed with right wing ideology.
I'm not certain what you're getting at.

Rereading the entire topic, the consensus seems to be that Hitler was the worst of the two. Mathematically speaking that would indeed mean that Stalin was not as bad.
Further the difference between the two in what and why they did things and how far they went, was primarily ideological. And seeing as Stalin is firmly on the left of the ideological divide.

Whether or not that all disturbs you is up to you of course.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 12:17 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am a little disturbed that some people here are ,frankly, taking the line that Stalin was not as bad a Hitler because Uncle Joe followed a left wing ideology. A person killed because his disagreed with left wing ideology is just as dead as somebody who ws killed because they disagreed with right wing ideology.
I'd also suggest that those who think that Nazis were a lot less collectivist than the USSR, look up the whole KdF (Kraft durch Freude = Strength through Joy) thing. The Nazis took to even controlling what you're doing in your <bleep!>ing free time. As in even what and where can you do after work. Not only there was a whole Feierabendgestaltung (After-work organization; organization as in, how you organize your after-work time, not as in some kind of agency) idea, but there actually was an office to enforce it (Amt für Feierabend = office for after work time.)

By 1938, some 25 million Germans had their holidays and all planned through it.

And it also leaked into what you do at work. The most recognizable result of the KdF is the.... Volkswagen. Not only the car itself was hyped as the brainfart... err... brain child of the KdF, but even the Wolfsburg factory was called the KdF Vehicle Factory At Fallersleben (Fallersleben now a large suburb citzy of Wolfsburg, but at the time there was no Wolfsburg as such, because...) and what's now called Wolfsburg was simply called "town of the KDF Vehicle Factory Fallesleben."

So, yeah, even Stalin didn't try to control THAT much what you do in your free time.

I'm not defending Stalin, mind you. Just expanding on what you wrote by basically saying that the two were having quite a number of similarities. So, yeah, not only you were probably just as dead if you opposed either, but you'd probably be dead for opposing the same things.

Oh yeah, and both were planning to starve Ukraine, both were planning to deport the "useless" populations there to Siberia, etc... Stalin just actually had Siberia all along, while for the Nazis it was more of a "after we conquer it" kinda thing.

The switch to just industrialized mass-murder for Germany, as outlined in the Wannsee Conference, only happened when it became clear that they're never actually going to own Siberia or Madagascar or the other places where they were planning to deport the "subhumans" and let them starve to death. The Nazis would have very much preferred to keep it out of sight and out of mind, pretending that they're humane by deporting them to starve instead of outright murdering everyone personally, but when it became clear that it ain't happening, it was back to murder.

Stalin just never had to. The whole Gulag system in Siberia was a well oiled machine of exterminating people by starvation. The rations were calculated so you'd starve if you don't exceed your quotas, and you'd just starve faster if you do. The extra rations were actually calculated to not cover the extra caloric needs for the extra work they were awarded for.

The Nazis were planning pretty much their own variants of the same starvation scheme. They turned to industrial-scale mass murder when that wasn't going to happen. Stalin, I would conject, didn't construct gas chambers just because for him there never was a point where "screw it, starving them ain't gonna happen" was reached.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 12:22 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
I'm not certain what you're getting at.

Rereading the entire topic, the consensus seems to be that Hitler was the worst of the two. Mathematically speaking that would indeed mean that Stalin was not as bad.
Further the difference between the two in what and why they did things and how far they went, was primarily ideological. And seeing as Stalin is firmly on the left of the ideological divide.

Whether or not that all disturbs you is up to you of course.
Well, dunno about consensus. Personally I'm more like thinking that both were so horrible, that there's not even much point in saying that one was better, because it ends up misleading. I mean, it may be technically true, but it's kinda like saying that Luis Garavito (who raped, tortured and murdered anywhere between 140 and 300 kids) is better than Pedro López (who did the same to anywhere between 300 and 350 kids.) It may be technically true, but calling Garavito "better" kinda doesn't roll off my tongue. Same about Stalin and Hitler, really.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 01:37 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
The whole Gulag system in Siberia was a well oiled machine of exterminating people by starvation. The rations were calculated so you'd starve if you don't exceed your quotas, and you'd just starve faster if you do. The extra rations were actually calculated to not cover the extra caloric needs for the extra work they were awarded for.

The Nazis were planning pretty much their own variants of the same starvation scheme. They turned to industrial-scale mass murder when that wasn't going to happen. Stalin, I would conject, didn't construct gas chambers just because for him there never was a point where "screw it, starving them ain't gonna happen" was reached.
This illustrates the differences. The purpose of the Stalin camps was not to kill the inmates, but to extract from them the maximum of work at the minimum cost, without regard to whether they lived or died. The purpose of those of Hitler's camps in which the majority of the victims died was to exterminate populations. Such labour as was extracted from them was a by-product of the operation.

Thus, the extermination camps destroyed the Jewish population, and some other groups of people, in a very short period, and were then closed down. Some had to be reopened to murder the Jews of Hungary in 1944 when Germany occupied that country. They had already ceased to operate.

But Stalin's camps were an integral and permanent part of his penal and socio-economic system, and remained in place for two and a half decades, until reformed by his successors.

A consequence of this is that Stalin's victims had to be represented as criminals being punished, so that imaginary spies and saboteurs were created by the million. Hitler had no need to trouble himself with such fantasies. Jews were killed because they were Jews, Romani because they were Romani, and so on. Show trials and invented conspiracies were much less common features of Hitler's than of Stalin's regime.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 01:58 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, dunno about consensus. Personally I'm more like thinking that both were so horrible, that there's not even much point in saying that one was better, because it ends up misleading. I mean, it may be technically true, but it's kinda like saying that Luis Garavito (who raped, tortured and murdered anywhere between 140 and 300 kids) is better than Pedro López (who did the same to anywhere between 300 and 350 kids.) It may be technically true, but calling Garavito "better" kinda doesn't roll off my tongue. Same about Stalin and Hitler, really.
I have seen no one say that Stalin was better than Hitler. Hitler being worse does in no way mean that Stalin was in any way good or better. Not as bad, means just that. Not as bad.

They were both monsters.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 02:42 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
This illustrates the differences. The purpose of the Stalin camps was not to kill the inmates, but to extract from them the maximum of work at the minimum cost, without regard to whether they lived or died. The purpose of those of Hitler's camps in which the majority of the victims died was to exterminate populations. Such labour as was extracted from them was a by-product of the operation.

Thus, the extermination camps destroyed the Jewish population, and some other groups of people, in a very short period, and were then closed down. Some had to be reopened to murder the Jews of Hungary in 1944 when Germany occupied that country. They had already ceased to operate.

But Stalin's camps were an integral and permanent part of his penal and socio-economic system, and remained in place for two and a half decades, until reformed by his successors.

A consequence of this is that Stalin's victims had to be represented as criminals being punished, so that imaginary spies and saboteurs were created by the million. Hitler had no need to trouble himself with such fantasies. Jews were killed because they were Jews, Romani because they were Romani, and so on. Show trials and invented conspiracies were much less common features of Hitler's than of Stalin's regime.
How was it different if they deliberately set the rations to be insufficient to support life?
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Old 23rd June 2016, 03:40 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
How was it different if they deliberately set the rations to be insufficient to support life?
I'm not certain that the purpose of such rations was to kill the inmate. It was simply found that minimising food provision while inmates could easily be replaced if they died of malnutrition was the most economical way of exploiting the available sources of labour.

The morality rate followed the general availability of food quite closely, and was highest in 1942 when food became more expensive on account of the war. If Stalin had merely wanted to kill these people off he would have done it as speedily as Hitler did. He had both the technology and the will.

That's what happened to people sentenced for political dissidence, or to groups which could not conveniently be moved to camps. They were shot on the same day they were sentenced, and their bodies were buried in pits. That was the fate of the Polish officers at Katyn, whom it was considered inexpedient to detain in labour camps. Such pits have been found in many parts of the former USSR. Stalin was perfectly capable of such crimes, and frequently committed them. But the slave labour camps had functions not shared by Hitler's extermination centres.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 04:02 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
This illustrates the differences. The purpose of the Stalin camps was not to kill the inmates, but to extract from them the maximum of work at the minimum cost, without regard to whether they lived or died. The purpose of those of Hitler's camps in which the majority of the victims died was to exterminate populations. Such labour as was extracted from them was a by-product of the operation.

Thus, the extermination camps destroyed the Jewish population, and some other groups of people, in a very short period, and were then closed down. Some had to be reopened to murder the Jews of Hungary in 1944 when Germany occupied that country. They had already ceased to operate.

But Stalin's camps were an integral and permanent part of his penal and socio-economic system, and remained in place for two and a half decades, until reformed by his successors. The economic projections used to justify the system were invariably NOT met. By a very wide margin.

A consequence of this is that Stalin's victims had to be represented as criminals being punished, so that imaginary spies and saboteurs were created by the million. Hitler had no need to trouble himself with such fantasies. Jews were killed because they were Jews, Romani because they were Romani, and so on. Show trials and invented conspiracies were much less common features of Hitler's than of Stalin's regime.
Well, all I'm saying is that it's more complex. Stalin got more work out of them, yes, but nevertheless all along the purpose was to get starved and die.

The western estimates for the deaths in the GULAG system between 1918 and 1956 (when it basically got renamed) tend to be between 15 and 30 million people, FAR in excess of what Hitler managed to do with the extermination camps. The estimated death rate is about 10% of the inmates per year.

That's not just a hard labour sentence. Death rates in western countries that practiced sentencing to hard labour (including the USA) are nowhere NEAR even the same order of magnitude. In fact, the only country who managed to work people to death faster was Nazi germany.

So that doesn't look like the primary goal was the work, and the deaths being some unavoidable cost. In fact, just like in certain Nazi work camps (e.g., Mauthausen) the death was THE primary goal, and work is how they starved you to death.

Getting some work done with (often political) convicts was the ORIGINAL use of the Gulag system, in the 20's. The numbers of prisoners also were still in the low hundreds of thousands at the time, and also had some resemblance to following the infrastructure or resource goals.

In the '30's this changed abruptly. The Gulag system now became a place to dump all the "kulaks" (read: including anyone who didn't meet their quotas. Or even having a tin roof qualified some as kulaks) as part of Stalin's idea of "dekulakization". The goal WAS to rid the USSR of the "kulaks", and work was more like secondary goal.

The numbers of prisoners also inflated drastically. In 1931 alone, about TEN TIMES more people were sent to the Gulag than the total Gulag population had been before the "dekulakization" campaign. Needless to say, neither the infrastructure nor the equipment had a similar explosive growth, so they were most definitely not getting similar amounts of work per capita as before.

Also the number of inmates with high-school or college diplomas skyrocketed, so it wasn't all about kulaks.

And then came the '40's. Rations dropped even more, and inmates tended to be allowed about 5 hours of sleep per day.

Which largely negated any economic role. Extreme starvation and lack of sleep meant people were hardly in any shape to gather any resources. By 1942, you'd be lucky to have enough people who can even gather firewood to keep the camps warm.

Lack of equipment and resources also meant that justifications like using them to make weapons to use against Germany were more of a pipe-dream than reality. You can't make a tank without tools. The optimistic economic projections used to justify the system were actually invariably NOT met. By a very wide margin. In reality, the system wasn't even profitable.

I'd also add, for those who think, "well, 10% dead per year still isn't as bad as what the Nazis did", that well, technically it IS true, but it's also highly misleading. A lot of those that did survive the Gulag, didn't do so by surviving their whole sentence. They did so by being freed if they join the army instead. The USSR started having manpower problems very fast, and even Stalin was smart enough to realize that some of those millions of people would do him more good dying on the front line than starving in Siberia.

So basically the death rates would have been actually much higher, if it weren't for the mass releases to the army. In the 40's, if you exclude those released to the army, death rates among those that just stayed in the Gulag were actually much higher.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 04:30 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
So basically the death rates would have been actually much higher, if it weren't for the mass releases to the army. In the 40's, if you exclude those released to the army, death rates among those that just stayed in the Gulag were actually much higher.
How many Jews were released from Sobibor to join the Wehrmacht?

ETA See GulagWP
Mortality in Gulag camps in 1934–40 was 4–6 times higher than average in the Soviet Union. The estimated total number of those who died in imprisonment in 1930–53 is at least 1.76 million, about half of which occurred between 1941–43 following the German invasion. If prisoner deaths from labor colonies and special settlements are included, the death toll rises to 2,749,163, although the historian who compiled this estimate (J. Otto Pohl) stresses that it is incomplete, and doesn't cover all prisoner categories for every year.
See also the reference to "labour colonies and special settlements" abundantly described in the literature as well.

All this was part of a penal, deterrent and socio-economic system, perpetuated throughout
Stalin's reign. It was not a simple extermination process.

Stalin, I say, did indeed engage in extermination when that suited him best; and when he did that, he did it quickly and efficiently. Most "kulaks" were exiled and enslaved; their labour used to exploit inhospitable parts of the USSR. "Dangerous" ones were killed off at once, usually without seeing the inside of a labour camp. There were many of these too.

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Old 23rd June 2016, 07:08 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am a little disturbed that some people here are ,frankly, taking the line that Stalin was not as bad a Hitler because Uncle Joe followed a left wing ideology. A person killed because his disagreed with left wing ideology is just as dead as somebody who ws killed because they disagreed with right wing ideology.
I agree completely with the underlined. However Hitler also wished to exterminate an entire race, or actually races, of "inferior sub-humans". That makes him worse than Stalin. If by "right wing ideology" you mean genocidal maniacs then I guess it is indeed worse than "left wing ideology".
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Old 23rd June 2016, 07:16 AM   #188
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@Craig B:
Well, I wouldn't have started by saying "it's more complex" if I meant it was a simple process.

That said, exterminating millions is never a simple thing, especially when you can't even draw some racial us-vs-them line. It tends to produce MASSIVE resentment -- even inquisition heads back in the day ended up having to be under armed protection around the clock -- and I'm not sure the USSR could take much more of that without an outright uprising.

Even including the great purge, the official death sentences were a minority of the number. Estimates are around 600,000 death sentences. AND probably over half were secret trials and executions.

So, no, I don't think that he was in a position to choose to just exterminate millions overtly. The illusion of having a way out, if you obey and work hard enough... well, I really think he NEEDED that, to be able to kill as many as he did.

Basically let's just say there's a reason even the Nazis put "Arbeit Macht Frei" above the Auschwitz gates.

THAT said, I'm willing to concede the fact that the system is... err... the less worst, compared to the Nazi assembly-line of death.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 07:32 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
I agree completely with the underlined. However Hitler also wished to exterminate an entire race, or actually races, of "inferior sub-humans". That makes him worse than Stalin. If by "right wing ideology" you mean genocidal maniacs then I guess it is indeed worse than "left wing ideology".
Err... Stalin simply spread the hate among more groups. But he was also actually more efficient than Hitler at times.

The deportation of the Crimean Tartars for example was really no different than what the Nazis were planning for the Jews originally, in the Madagascar Plan, or for the Ukrainians in the Hunger Plan or Generalplan Ost. Just move them somewhere, and let them starve. And I don't mean he deported SOME of them. No no no, ALL the Crimean Tartars were deported en masse.

And that's just one in an depressingly long list of ethnic groups that Stalin had a beef with, at some point or another. As I was saying, Stalin just had a longer list of people that gave him a hate-boner, than Hitler did.

Nearly half of those deported as part of such ethnic groups... died.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 07:46 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Err... Stalin simply spread the hate among more groups. But he was also actually more efficient than Hitler at times.

The deportation of the Crimean Tartars for example was really no different than what the Nazis were planning for the Jews originally, in the Madagascar Plan, or for the Ukrainians in the Hunger Plan or Generalplan Ost. Just move them somewhere, and let them starve. And I don't mean he deported SOME of them. No no no, ALL the Crimean Tartars were deported en masse.

And that's just one in an depressingly long list of ethnic groups that Stalin had a beef with, at some point or another. As I was saying, Stalin just had a longer list of people that gave him a hate-boner, than Hitler did.

Nearly half of those deported as part of such ethnic groups... died.
All I have to go on is wikipedia on the Crimean Tartera? But was it not more a politically motivated mass murder, than actually thinking that they were an inferior race? Maybe I'm grasping at straws. Maybe we really did support a nation just as bad as Nazi Germany in WW2?
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Old 23rd June 2016, 08:00 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
All I have to go on is wikipedia on the Crimean Tartera? But was it not more a politically motivated mass murder, than actually thinking that they were an inferior race? Maybe I'm grasping at straws. Maybe we really did support a nation just as bad as Nazi Germany in WW2?
Churchill had it right on this.

From a different thread

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post

Whether the USSR was deserving or not, it was in the interests of the Western Allies to support the USSR and keep it fighting the most powerful Axis country, especially before the US joined the fight.

Once again, Churchill is hard to beat for a pithy summary.

Quote:
If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 23rd June 2016, 11:28 AM   #192
Craig B
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Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
All I have to go on is wikipedia on the Crimean Tartera? But was it not more a politically motivated mass murder, than actually thinking that they were an inferior race? Maybe I'm grasping at straws. Maybe we really did support a nation just as bad as Nazi Germany in WW2?
No, it was politically motivated. He deported the smaller national groups that had come under German occupation. It mattered not what their ethnic affinities were. Greeks, Tatars, as well as various nations from the Caucusus area, and a Mongolian people, the Kalmyks. A subset of Georgians also suffered, a bit later - the Mingrelians. Stalin wasn't a Mingrelian. Beria was.

The deportation of ethnic groups is a common enough malpractice; regrettably not confined to fascist States. It was perpetrated in the colonial empires and of course in the USA. But Stalin's application of the procedure was exceptionally cruel, entirely in line with his normal crudity and heartlessness.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 07:08 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
All I have to go on is wikipedia on the Crimean Tartera? But was it not more a politically motivated mass murder, than actually thinking that they were an inferior race? Maybe I'm grasping at straws. Maybe we really did support a nation just as bad as Nazi Germany in WW2?
Oh, it was politically motivated mass-murder all right. No doubt about that.

But, you know, at the end of the day you're still just as dead if the justification was "Tartars are disloyal to the Soviet Union" as if it was "Jews are inferior AND disloyal."
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Old 23rd June 2016, 07:10 PM   #194
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As a side-note, since there's been some talk of some variant or another of "oh, but he got some work out of it" as an excuse for Stalin, are you sure the same doesn't apply to Germany? Thing is, the Jews' confiscated wealth paid for a LOT of the German tanks. In fact, IIRC, it paid for about a third of the war effort.

I mean, for Stalin it seems like a defense of sorts, at least in some people's minds, that, basically, yeah, but he built a whole economic system out of millions of starving people, cutting more lumber in Siberia than anyone needed. And sure, he did. But Hitler took the route of just taking their money and paying Messerschmidt to make him some planes or Krupp to make him some big guns. And then using them as slave labour for IG Farben and such for some extra economic use.

I mean, it was at times even as overt as the 1 billion Reichsmark fine on the Jews after the Kristallnacht attack on the Jews. That's just short of 6 billion USD in today's money.

So, while the exact implementation details differ, no doubt... and the propaganda used for targetting and dehumanizingh some people did differ too ("subhumans" vs "enemies of the people") wasn't it the same basic idea of getting a bunch of stuff built out of some millions of victims?

And the Nazis were for a while convinced that they can get a LOT more money off the Jews. The circle-jerk gang at the top seems to have had actually convinced themselves that the Jews have tons of money AND that the rest of the world will pay tons of money to rescue them.

So, you know, persecuting them seemed like just good business. In fact, a lot better business than Stalin did by cutting trees in Siberia with his victims.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 07:20 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
No, it was politically motivated. He deported the smaller national groups that had come under German occupation. It mattered not what their ethnic affinities were. Greeks, Tatars, as well as various nations from the Caucusus area, and a Mongolian people, the Kalmyks. A subset of Georgians also suffered, a bit later - the Mingrelians. Stalin wasn't a Mingrelian. Beria was.
Funnily enough, under Lenin -- you know, that guy which marxist students claim was totally not as bad as Stalin -- in his "decossakisation" you could get deported to some far north concentration camp for being... Russian in the wrong place. Lenin apparently agreed that the Russian empire's colonization of some other people's homelands was wrong, so his solution was to just round up a bunch of Cossacks and Russians from there and dump them in concentration camps in the far North.

Well, mind you, the fact that the Cossack hosts were also largely self-governed, and most had supported the white army against Lenin may have also played a role

Still, you know, it's kinda funny to get deported by Lenin for being Russian. Is all I'm saying
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Old 24th June 2016, 11:42 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Oh, it was politically motivated mass-murder all right. No doubt about that.

But, you know, at the end of the day you're still just as dead if the justification was "Tartars are disloyal to the Soviet Union" as if it was "Jews are inferior AND disloyal."
You're just as dead if you're run over by a bus. Dead is dead; but that doesn't stop people from discussing differences in the types of crimes committed by different murderers.
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Old 24th June 2016, 12:37 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
As a side-note, since there's been some talk of some variant or another of "oh, but he got some work out of it" as an excuse for Stalin
That is not an excuse for Stalin. It is an investigation of his motives.
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
are you sure the same doesn't apply to Germany?
So is that an excuse for Hitler? Of course it's not; to find an economic motive is not to excuse Stalin either.
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Old 24th June 2016, 01:08 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Oh, it was politically motivated mass-murder all right. No doubt about that.

But, you know, at the end of the day you're still just as dead if the justification was "Tartars are disloyal to the Soviet Union" as if it was "Jews are inferior AND disloyal."
THIS.
It is important to understand the different motives for mass murder that Stalin and Hitler had,but killing millions for political reasons is just as evil as killing millions because they are members of an racial or religious group.
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Old 24th June 2016, 01:52 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
THIS.
It is important to understand the different motives for mass murder that Stalin and Hitler had,but killing millions for political reasons is just as evil as killing millions because they are members of an racial or religious group.
That is as may be, but the effects were different. Stalin ran a slave empire, so his camps were sustainable on a long term basis. Hitler's extermination camps were intended to eliminate entire populations within a year or so, and then shut down. The effects of the difference are significant. It has been pointed out to me that many inmates of Stalin's camps were saved by being released into the Army. But I observe that no Jews were saved from Nazi extermination camps that way.

Hitler's regime in Poland, the General Government, was little more than an extermination machine, intended in the end to be cleansed of all its inhabitants except Germans. It was therefore ephemeral. The Stalinist regime in Poland was rational enough to be surprisingly durable, because Stalin kept it in being in order to exploit it. It's the phenomenon noted in the past in respect of slavery in the USA and elsewhere. It may make economic sense to keep slaves alive, because their labour is valuable. But of course when the supply of slaves is abundant enough, little attention need be paid to them because they can be cheaply replaced. Stalin adopted both strategies, as and when they suited his purposes, on a basis of pure expediency. He was entirely without scruples of any kind.

Yes, both men were so evil, that making personal distinctions of judgement between them is a pointless exercise. But their respective regimes, though both tyrannies, were not the same, and it is important to understand the reason for the differences.
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Old 24th June 2016, 02:01 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
THIS.
It is important to understand the different motives for mass murder that Stalin and Hitler had,but killing millions for political reasons is just as evil as killing millions because they are members of an racial or religious group.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. Mass murder for the purpose of genocide is worse than "just" mass murder IMO, by a shade. As an analogy I'd rather step in puke than bloody puke. To add: that is looking at it from a historical view. If someone murdered my entire family I wouldn't care much about what their motives were.

Where I have trouble making a distinction is whether genocide for political expediency is worse than genocide for racial purity.

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