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#281 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 20,015
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I prefer, "laughably vile", rather than "dull", Hans.
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OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#282 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,773
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#283 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 351
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Mass rape of Italian women by Free French forces -
http://uncensoredhistory.blogspot.co...-moroccan.html Maybe the makers of Hellstorm - www.hellstormdocumentary.com - can produce a documentary about Allied war crimes against the Italians ? |
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#284 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
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From that blogpost:
Quote:
This is what wiki says about that alleged proclamation:
Quote:
![]() Oh, to top it off, that blogpost then offers an image with the caption "The letter by Juin was forwarded to all Goumier units which gave the Moroccans carte blanche". Really? That image says nothing of the kind, and it's written in Italian. Why would a French general commanding troops speaking Arabic and/or Berber write in Italian? Can you tell me that, Mondial? "Uncensored" in the name of that blogspot apparently means "throwing any falsified crap at you they can find". |
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"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
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#285 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 867
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In addition I refer to a Italian draft law of 1996 which cited a figure of 2000 women : http://www.senato.it/service/PDF/PDF...T/00001012.pdf
And this study (in French) concludes it is impossible to provide a accurate figure but its évaluations are far below 60,000 : https://www.cairn.info/revue-vingtie...-1-page-47.htm |
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#286 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,620
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I have spent time in the area occupied by these Moroccan troops in Central Italy, and their abuses in the region are well remembered. But I have never heard it suggested this the French high command ordered or encouraged them; the complaint has been that they didn't act swiftly or effectively to prevent or punish these atrocities.
However, this bad reputation doesn't extend to Allied forces in general. The incursion by Allied troops was welcomed, because the main complaint of the local people was against the Germans, who were taking civilian hostages and shooting them in very large numbers. Of all the accusations made against any of the armies engaged in the area, that was the most frequent and the most serious. |
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#287 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,620
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Further to my last post. Here is a note on German hostage taking.
The published order by the German Commandant, General Kesselring, was that for every German killed by partisans 10 Italians selected at random would be shot. Here is just a flavour of many similar public notices: German 5 Corps, 1 S, No. 391, of 9 August 1944: '(c) If crimes of outstanding violence are committed, especially against German soldiers, an appropriate number of hostages will be hanged. In such cases the whole population of the place will be assembled to witness the executions. After the bodies have been left hanging for 12 hours, the public will be ordered to bury them without ceremony and without the assistance of any priest.' (see pages 316-327 of 'War In Italy 1943-1945 — A Brutal Story' by Richard Lamb (published by John Murray, 1993) for the full text of this order and many other chilling documents).Kesselring had in fact been present in the area, in the very village in which I heard accounts of the behaviour of the German forces on the Gustav Line. |
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#288 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 867
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BTW Kesselring had been sentenced to death in 1947 but he got a lot of support including from the Allied side. Even Churchill stated that the sentence was too harsh. As a result Kesselring has been released from prison in 1952 instead of being executed by a firing squad.
However historical researches published after his death in 1960 show Kesselring was a true and fanatic nazi who has never hesitated to order killings of civilians. And he is also regarded as the responsible for the death of many German civilians because of some decisions he has taken at the end of the war. But he clearly did not take care of the life of his fellow countrymen. |
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#289 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,620
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Kesselring did not maltreat Allied prisoners, and Churchill held Italians, whether civilian or military, in very low esteem.
But the Italian government did not vigorously demand Kesselring's execution in 1947, because the death penalty had already been abolished in Italy in 1944, a fact which is much to the credit of the post-fascist Italian state. |
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#290 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,591
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I have not seen the movie hellstorm but I have read some holocaust books some of which talked about civilian deaths in allied concentration camps after the war. I heard the number was 1.5m but a scan of the internet turns up 900k. I am guessing the 15m. million figure is accurate. Anyways, they this total did include nazi children etc. I guess on the scale of things its not all that much. I am not too sure about the Russian side, but I did see a movie about the fall of berlin that suggested that they killed any male that happened to be the right age to be a soldier. What else, this is old info but I think the total number of war dead including soldiers is probably as high for the Nazi's as anybody else's. I am sure that at least that many died outside of concentration camps too.
http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/11/2...trocities.html Oh, this link is a refutation. I read a work that I can't remember the name but was hardly sympathetic to Nazi's that they have several camps along the Rhine river filled with Nazi civilians. The writer claimed that there were too many Nazi's left alive after the war to let go so they starved them. And this makes perfect sense. The write claimed that the prisoners were not only not fed, they also were not given clothing or shelter. Geeze I wish I remembered the name of the book. I read it in the 90's |
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Formerly known as MNBrant. |
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#291 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,567
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Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks? |
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#292 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 4,515
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[disclosure]During the last year of the war in Europe, my grandfather was commandant of a camp for German POWs used for labor on engineering projects. He was transferred out of the ETO in August, 1945.[/disclosure] And the link is in fact to Stephen Ambrose's thorough debunking of Other Losses. So please explain, if you would, MinnesotaBrant, why you continue to rely on Bacque as a source, when he's been utterly discredited by a large number of respected historians. |
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Handy responses to conspiracy theorists' claims: 1) "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." --Charles Babbage 2) "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." --Wolfgang Pauli 3) "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya |
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#293 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 4,515
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<bump> MinnesotaBrant, are you going to answer my question?
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Handy responses to conspiracy theorists' claims: 1) "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." --Charles Babbage 2) "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." --Wolfgang Pauli 3) "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya |
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#294 |
Warning: May Contain Nuts
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Waddinxveen
Posts: 2,809
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I'm guessing he won't.
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See, it isn’t Hitler you’ve gotta hate; that’s not who you’ve gotta watch out for. The Hitlers of the world are very rare. We have to watch out for the people who did it for him, without any questions asked. Normal people who didn’t want to lose their jobs. Those are the people you have to watch out for, and the world’s always been full of them. - Lemmy |
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#295 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 351
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At the Nuremberg tribunal and other trials German doctors were condemned for experiments - https://codoh.com/library/document/2369/
And yet before, during and after the war American doctors also conducted experiments - http://www.jrbooksonline.com/HTML-do...imentation.htm Yet more hypocrisy and double standards from the Allies. |
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#296 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,620
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#297 |
Cythraul Enfys
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,992
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In real life it is a perfect excuse. Once you know your enemy does not follow the rules.................
And, as to the cities, they had the things in them (war work, war communications, war offices, roads that military moved on, tracks that military goods and personnel moved on) and the RoW make that a war crime - for the side using/allowing the military to use them. |
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There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!! |
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#298 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,620
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I've been carefully distinguishing between attacks on Israeli civilians and soldiers in Palestinian Territories occupied by Israel. To you it's all the same, I suppose, but I find it hard to accept that. I make a distinction between terrorism and attacks on military targets. In any case we've shown time and again that killing civilians was a primary aim of the bombing campaign, so your point is irrelevant.
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#299 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 351
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More Germans died after their country surrendered than during the war. What does that tell you about the so called "good guys" ? It tells me that they were nothing but two faced hypocrites and holier than thou types who are guilty of war crimes themselves.
https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017/...people-part-1/ https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017/...people-part-2/ The 2 Million-The Rape of German Girls and Women https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017/...-for-genocide/ https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017/...nocide-part-2/ 95% of Babies Born in Berlin 1945 Die on America's Watch https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017/...-into-germany/ |
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#300 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,411
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#301 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 19,042
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yay Nazis!
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#302 |
Evil Fokker
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,915
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I hear a seagull, do you hear a seagull?
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www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun! Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013. |
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#303 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: As far away from casebro as possible.
Posts: 7,050
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__________________
There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda |
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#304 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,773
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#305 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,773
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#306 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 42,539
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#307 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 20,015
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Worth posting this from HansMunstermann over on the "how competent were the Nazis" thread.
TLDR: Don't march on Russia if you are buying your oil from them and your own projections say you'll run out of supplies a fifth to a third of the way to the oil fields. |
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OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#308 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,892
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The Nazis and Soviets committed horrible war crimes.
The West? Not so much. |
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#309 |
Cythraul Enfys
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,992
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I really do not care what the non-Jewish Germans suffered during the war, they could have risen up and stopped it but were too cowardly or evil or both to do so and we still have nazi slimes around. And that might not have happened anyway had they not violated the agreed to Rules of Warfare in so many ways. Not to mention that since the Nazi's were vile enough to have war plants, war offices, war transportation etc. in the cities where they knew (ROW) they were imminently attackable legallythey might have had a claim that precision targeting be used, but by putting those things in the cities they removed that concern from the air attacks completely. For those who think otherwise, please actually read the Rules of War for that period.
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There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!! |
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#310 |
Cythraul Enfys
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,992
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__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!! |
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#311 |
Cythraul Enfys
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,992
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You do know that most of us cannot be taken in by propaganda made by slime and ******** I hope. The bit I am familiar with of Italian women being raped and more was Ethiopian soldiers. As to the Free French and moreso certain French military, they did real bad in Algeria and I would have loved seeing them dancing in air on lengths of wire. If you do not know why. look it up. We have this thing called the internet nowadays.
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There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!! |
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#312 |
Cythraul Enfys
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,992
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__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!! |
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#313 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 3,321
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My elder sister went on a school pupil exchange with a German family in the 1950s to Hanover, or Hannover. The German girl was a very nice gel and we all went on several visits together. I still have some cine film of her visit. I remember her being upset when she received a letter from her German boyfriend calling off the relationship. My sister was a bit miffed at the time at how Hanover was prospering and how her German family seemed to be quite wealthy with all the West German debts cancelled by America. The German father blamed Churchill for Germany's past troubles. He was obviously a proper old Nazi
Her brother visited us about a year later with a German male friend. They were a couple of toughs. They were about to go to a dance hall. One of them had a revolver which surprised me at the time. The German girl visited us several years later with her husband and a son but we have lost touch since then. It's just that a leopard cannot change its spots. The Germans are either at your feet or at your throat. |
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#314 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: As far away from casebro as possible.
Posts: 7,050
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There are no words.....
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There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda |
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#315 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 20,015
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how about ********* stupid xenophobia?
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OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#316 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,599
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I do see the Western Allies as the good guys. They were developing social democracies, which are preferential to a racist dictatorship. The eastern Ally was supported due to a common enemy. The Soviets under Stalin was as bad as the Nazis.
The behaviour of all sides during the war was pretty atrocious at times. The Nazis set the tone of the war, with undeclared invasions, bombing of civilians and they went on to commit genocide. That the Western Allies fought hard and dirty at times was the only way to win. A ruthless enemy cannot be defeated any other way. That terrible things happened after the war, in particular to the Germans, is hardly a shocker. You reap what you sow. That there was revenge is to be expected. |
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Audiophile/biker/sceptic |
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#317 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 28,494
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That sounds like the time I caught the ferry over to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for my shoe, so, I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em. “Give me five bees for a quarter,” you'd say. Now where were we? Oh yeah: the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn't have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones.
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right? Tony Szamboti: That is right |
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#318 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 14,611
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Mate, frankly, where the hell do you think the allied industry was located? Do you think that, unlike those vile Nazis, anyone was carefully building their factories 2 miles from the city limit, or WTH?
Have you checked out for example where the Chrysler arsenal in Michigan that made M3 and M4 tanks was located, for example? Hint, it's better known as the "Detroit Arsenal (Warren, Michigan)", because it's smack dab in Warren, the biggest suburb of Detroit. And that's a factory expressly built for making tanks. The ones that were converted mid-war, nobody moved outside the city they were in. So, please. I'm not defending the Nazis, but it's silly to pretend it's some Nazi grand plot to hide behind civilians. EVERYONE placed their factories close to where they expected their workers to live. Chiefly because you couldn't expect everyone to have a car in the 30's like you have now, public transportation sucked, etc. The whole of western Europe didn't have NEARLY enough fuel for any the of that. And a lot of factories had even been built long before the 30's. And in fact when the Nazis did built a factory from the ground up -- as in, actually built from a government initiative, as opposed to wherever the hell Krupp or Opel happened to have built their private factories -- look up Volkswagen. It was actually built a couple of miles from the nearby town of Fallersleben. Mostly because the town didn't want to pay a part of the costs, mind you. But still, one way or another, is was actually built by the NAZIS away from populated areas. The later town of Wolfsburg grew around the factory, rather than the factory being built in the middle of a town as some evil Nazi plot. |
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Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand? |
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#319 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,411
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#320 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 20,015
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__________________
OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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