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Old 9th September 2018, 04:28 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The standard for justifying self-defense is what a reasonable person would interpret as being an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. Unless she is hiding those four magic words, 'and he attacked me', the wrong apartment thing doesn't matter. Her fears, prejudices, tendency to 'freak out', simply don't matter.
Of course they do. Let's suppose she was slipped something in her drink before she went home. You think that wouldn't be a mitigating factor?
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:44 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I don't see why being a cop makes you suddenly immune from panicking. And you don't have to be an idiot to react the way she did. Mistaking the doors was idiotic.
If you are a cop, you are not 'suddenly immune'; you have lengthy training in keeping clear under stress. You are also armed with and trained in a variety of weapons and combat techniques, precisely so you do not start peeing down your leg and shooting at the first hint of something wrong.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:46 PM   #363
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She lived in the same apartment building as the victim for a month....
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:48 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Does she have to claim that? Or is the burden on the state to prove that fear for her life wasn't her state of mind? After all, if she's presumed innocent, the state must prove the crime and in this case, that would mean proving she had a non-reasonable fear for her life.
I'm not seeing a contradiction. Whether her fear was reasonable or not, the first step is she has to claim she was afraid.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:50 PM   #365
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Somebody is going to have to explain to me why when the "But... but they FEARED FOR THEIR LIFE AND THAT MAKES EVERYTHING OKAY!" applies so selectively.

If some body shows up at my door announced with a gun I'd fear for me life, but ironically that person is the dead one in this scenario.

Or we can all just continue to live in the fantasy world where there's no Elephant in the room and if they guy in his own home had shot the cop we'd be having the same conversation.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:51 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'm not seeing a contradiction. Whether her fear was reasonable or not, the first step is she has to claim she was afraid.
The first step is she is charged. I wouldn't tell the police anything, if I was her. If the state can't prove their case, she doesn't have to claim anything.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:52 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The standard for justifying self-defense is what a reasonable person would interpret as being an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. Unless she is hiding those four magic words, 'and he attacked me', the wrong apartment thing doesn't matter. Her fears, prejudices, tendency to 'freak out', simply don't matter.
Conceded in advance that the information (or lack thereof) makes 99% of this discussion pure hypothesizing. I consider myself a reasonable person. If I entered my home while armed (I don't carry a gun) and a stranger came out of one of the rooms towards me in close quarters- perhaps trying to scare me away- I would not spend a great deal of time trying to grasp the nuance. I would shoot. I would find that reaction reasonable were someone else to do it.

Again, I emphasize that I do not have access to any information that is not public.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:53 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Somebody is going to have to explain to me why when the "But... but they FEARED FOR THEIR LIFE AND THAT MAKES EVERYTHING OKAY!" applies so selectively.

If some body shows up at my door announced with a gun I'd fear for me life, but ironically that person is the dead one in this scenario.

Or we can all just continue to live in the fantasy world where there's no Elephant in the room and if they guy in his own home had shot the cop we'd be having the same conversation.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:54 PM   #369
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Local cops called it manslaughter. Rangers are investigating some things she said.

Since Ferguson, several incidents have been bumped up a step, like to the grand jury. Often times dragging out for months. Emotions quiet down. Then the subsequent low/no charges do not get called a white wash. The Ranger involvement in this case may be a delaying tactic, plus the 'higher authority'. Subsequent Manslaughter charge won't civil unrest. Heck, she may have admitted to manslaughter already, and it was the Governor that involved the Rangers as I outlined.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:55 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Somebody is going to have to explain to me why when the "But... but they FEARED FOR THEIR LIFE AND THAT MAKES EVERYTHING OKAY!" applies so selectively.

If some body shows up at my door announced with a gun I'd fear for me life, but ironically that person is the dead one in this scenario.

Or we can all just continue to live in the fantasy world where there's no Elephant in the room and if they guy in his own home had shot the cop we'd be having the same conversation.
Had the situation been reversed, and the victim been the shooter, I would argue that his actions were reasonable. And that a simple mistake had led to a tragedy.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:01 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Of course they do. Let's suppose she was slipped something in her drink before she went home. You think that wouldn't be a mitigating factor?
It would. So would giving her a lobotomy. So would dosing her donut with LSD. But unless such an out-in-left-field scenarios are supported, not really a factor. 'Freaking out' is not a trait that is slipped in your drink.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:01 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
The first step is she is charged. I wouldn't tell the police anything, if I was her. If the state can't prove their case, she doesn't have to claim anything.
If the scene was processed, there's physical evidence that she shot someone to death in his own apartment. The guy has 2 bullet wounds, 2 bullets are gone from her gun, they are the same type of bullet he was shot with, she has gunshot residue on her hands, and they are demonstrably in his apartment.

How does clamming up help her? She shot someone to death and won't say why?

Yeah, no.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:05 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It would. So would giving her a lobotomy. So would dosing her donut with LSD. But unless such an out-in-left-field scenarios are supported, not really a factor. 'Freaking out' is not a trait that is slipped in your drink.
"Freaking out" is what reasonable people do when a stranger is in the house. Her reaction was perfectly normal. What caused the reaction was a mistake. her reaction and what caused that reaction are not the same thing.

Could a reasonable person mistake an apartment door? Yes. Could that same reasonable person fear for their life upon entering an apartment they thought was there's? Yes.

So where's the crime at? She didn't do anything a non-reasonable person would do.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:06 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
If the scene was processed, there's physical evidence that she shot someone to death in his own apartment. The guy has 2 bullet wounds, 2 bullets are gone from her gun, they are the same type of bullet he was shot with, she has gunshot residue on her hands, and they are demonstrably in his apartment.

How does clamming up help her? She shot someone to death and won't say why?

Yeah, no.
In this case, the state has a strong case against her so she will probably have to put on some kind of defense. But the state might blow it. It's happened before. Defendants often don't put on a defense.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:09 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
"Freaking out" is what reasonable people do when a stranger is in the house. Her reaction was perfectly normal. What caused the reaction was a mistake. her reaction and what caused that reaction are not the same thing.

Could a reasonable person mistake an apartment door? Yes. Could that same reasonable person fear for their life upon entering an apartment they thought was there's? Yes.

So where's the crime at? She didn't do anything a non-reasonable person would do.
Apart from shooting a man. Unless he attacked her, that's not reasonable even granting that she thought he was in her apartment.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:09 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
"Freaking out" is what reasonable people do when a stranger is in the house. Her reaction was perfectly normal. What caused the reaction was a mistake. her reaction and what caused that reaction are not the same thing.

Could a reasonable person mistake an apartment door? Yes. Could that same reasonable person fear for their life upon entering an apartment they thought was there's? Yes.

So where's the crime at? She didn't do anything a non-reasonable person would do.
Except for the killing a person part.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:10 PM   #377
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I'm beginning to wonder if she staged the whole incident in order to cover up a planned murder.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:12 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Apart from shooting a man.
Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
Except for the killing a person part.
Oh come on that's just a minor side detail, a nitpick really. You are being incredibly unfair to this poor defense little... armed police officer by continually bringing that up.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:12 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
Except for the killing a person part.
If you were walking in the door of what you thought was your home and a strange man gets up and maybe runs at you, and you have a gun, you think it's unreasonable to shoot the person? Really?
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:14 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Conceded in advance that the information (or lack thereof) makes 99% of this discussion pure hypothesizing. I consider myself a reasonable person. If I entered my home while armed (I don't carry a gun) and a stranger came out of one of the rooms towards me in close quarters- perhaps trying to scare me away- I would not spend a great deal of time trying to grasp the nuance. I would shoot. I would find that reaction reasonable were someone else to do it.

Again, I emphasize that I do not have access to any information that is not public.
Agreed that we are all commenting without enough information (with the caveat that a hugely important justifying element has no earthly reason to be omitted):

Would you find it reasonable for a uniformed and armed police officer, considering their line of work, to shoot first and ask questions later?

If you will indulge an anecdote: I live in a beach town whose population goes up tenfold in the summer, mostly with renters. Each and every year, at least one walks right in my front door, misremembering what house they rented (it happens). I have walked into what I thought was my empty house and found strange men in my living room. Guess how many I killed?
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:15 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh come on that's just a minor side detail, a nitpick really. You are being incredibly unfair to this poor defense little... armed police officer by continually bringing that up.
If the article is truthful about what happened, she's not going to be convicted. This is exactly like the Kate Steinle case.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:17 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
If you were walking in the door of what you thought was your home and a strange man gets up and maybe runs at you, and you have a gun, you think it's unreasonable to shoot the person? Really?
Yes. It is unreasonable.

1. Again you can't act like IT WASN'T HER HOUSE is some minor nitpicking side detail that doesn't change the situation. As if "knowing what house you are in" is some incredibly impossible standard of situational awareness we're putting on this woman.

2. She had the gun, he didn't. She had the balance of power in this scenario. What was she scared of? Unless simple "maleness" is so evil to you that changes it back.

3. "Fear" is not the license to murder for other people that it (ostensibly) is for you.

When I was boots on ground in Afghanistan if I had killed somebody every time I feared for my life I would have depopulated half that country.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:17 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'm beginning to wonder if she staged the whole incident in order to cover up a planned murder.
Was actually my first thought, with the whole 'golly, little old me can't figure out where she lives. I'm just a dumb cop with no reasoning abilities, tee-hee'
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:18 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
If the article is truthful about what happened, she's not going to be convicted. This is exactly like the Kate Steinle case.
Of course she isn't going to get convicted. I'm amazed she even got charged.

People like you have allowed the "Fear for their life" standard to be turned into a license to kill at whim.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:21 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
If you were walking in the door of what you thought was your home and a strange man gets up and maybe runs at you, and you have a gun, you think it's unreasonable to shoot the person? Really?
There's no evidence that he ran at her. Its unlikely that he did given that she was wearing a police uniform.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:25 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Agreed that we are all commenting without enough information (with the caveat that a hugely important justifying element has no earthly reason to be omitted):

Would you find it reasonable for a uniformed and armed police officer, considering their line of work, to shoot first and ask questions later?

If you will indulge an anecdote: I live in a beach town whose population goes up tenfold in the summer, mostly with renters. Each and every year, at least one walks right in my front door, misremembering what house they rented (it happens). I have walked into what I thought was my empty house and found strange men in my living room. Guess how many I killed?
There's the rub, isn't it.
You are hypothesizing that she went "Dirty Harry" and knew immediately that there was a "bad guy" in the apartment, entering as a cop who was going to put down the criminal. Thus your rhetorical question. Of course "in the line of duty" shoot first-ask questions later is unjustified.
I am offering a counter-hypothesis; that she had no idea anyone else was in "her" home and was startled when the legitimate occupant (who she would resonably see as an intruder) reacted aggressively (hypothesis) and shot him. In that scenario her reaction could be reasonable- in spite of its tragic outcome.

The first time someone walked into your home were you startled? Did you attempt to scare them off by making yourself seem as threatening as you could muster?
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:26 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
If you were walking in the door of what you thought was your home and a strange man gets up and maybe runs at you, and you have a gun, you think it's unreasonable to shoot the person? Really?
Yes. I have a gun & I'm in a doorway. I can move to the side & cover the murder hole screaming what are you doing in my house.

If a cop mistakes our apartment for hers, sees a black guy (me), opens fire hitting killing me in front of my son & screams "White power!" my wife should just accept the oops?
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:27 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
There's no evidence that he ran at her. Its unlikely that he did given that she was wearing a police uniform.
Was she?
Is it possible she had stripped down to nothing more than a blue shirt? Or even a tee-shirt?

If you know otherwise, where did you learn it?
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:28 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Was she?
Is it possible she had stripped down to nothing more than a blue shirt? Or even a tee-shirt?

If you know otherwise, where did you learn it?
In this thread. The links posted in the first few pages contained some details.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:29 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
"Freaking out" is what reasonable people do when a stranger is in the house. Her reaction was perfectly normal. What caused the reaction was a mistake. her reaction and what caused that reaction are not the same thing.
Disagreed. Freaking out is what cartoon housewives do when they see a mouse. Adults do not. They may get very alert and defensive, but freaking out and killing come much later up the scale of threat.

Quote:
Could a reasonable person mistake an apartment door? Yes. Could that same reasonable person fear for their life upon entering an apartment they thought was there's? Yes.
But can they act on that fear and justifiably kill, absent an imminent threat? Absolutely not.

Quote:
So where's the crime at? She didn't do anything a non-reasonable person would do.
She did. Reasonable people don't 'freak out' and kill others. Police officers yell 'freeze! Police!' or the like before killing unarmed and, as far as we know, unthreatening people.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:34 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
In this thread. The links posted in the first few pages contained some details.
You are correct. The first link does indeed claim she was in uniform.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:38 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
So after a month someone in a job where it's pretty much a given that the employee has to be good at spotting small details (i.e. "clues"), isn't able to recognise the inside of her own building?
Oh, sorry, I forgot we were talk about a perfect machine here.

I really don't know what went wrong. But the new building factor is a possiblity.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:39 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Does she have to claim that? Or is the burden on the state to prove that fear for her life wasn't her state of mind? After all, if she's presumed innocent, the state must prove the crime and in this case, that would mean proving she had a non-reasonable fear for her life.
Self defense is an affirmative defense. The burden of proof is on the accused to show it.

Presumption of innocence is not a presumption that any claim by a defendant is true until proven otherwise.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:39 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Oh, sorry, I forgot we were talk about a perfect machine here.
"Enough situational awareness prior to deploying lethal force to know if you are in your own home" is "perfect machine" behavior.

Riiiiight.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:41 PM   #395
332nd
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Was she?
Is it possible she had stripped down to nothing more than a blue shirt? Or even a tee-shirt?

If you know otherwise, where did you learn it?
I believe she's the female cop in this video she seems to be in uniform.
https://youtu.be/wdIZFWyhx0w
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:48 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Self defense is an affirmative defense. The burden of proof is on the accused to show it.

Presumption of innocence is not a presumption that any claim by a defendant is true until proven otherwise.

I guess we'll all have to wait and see as the details come to light. Just like always.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:51 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Of course she isn't going to get convicted. I'm amazed she even got charged.
Has she been charged? There was a bad headline on an earlier story about Dallas PD being ready to charge her but holding off and calling the Texas Rangers.

I haven't been following it closely, but as far as I can tell there's been nothing released to the public about her even being afraid. One cop talked off the record about it, but who knows if that was accurate. He described her putting down things she was holding in her hands in order to try to turn the key, and then him opening the door in his underwear, and her shooting him.

Dallas was ready to charge her with a crime, that says something.
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:56 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
There's the rub, isn't it.
You are hypothesizing that she went "Dirty Harry" and knew immediately that there was a "bad guy" in the apartment, entering as a cop who was going to put down the criminal. Thus your rhetorical question. Of course "in the line of duty" shoot first-ask questions later is unjustified.
I am offering a counter-hypothesis; that she had no idea anyone else was in "her" home and was startled when the legitimate occupant (who she would resonably see as an intruder) reacted aggressively (hypothesis) and shot him. In that scenario her reaction could be reasonable- in spite of its tragic outcome.

The first time someone walked into your home were you startled? Did you attempt to scare them off by making yourself seem as threatening as you could muster?
The first time is a good example. Under spoiler to not clog the thread.

My current house was built in 1910 and needed a lot of work before I moved the family in. I camped out onsite to work 16 hr days while the family was inland. So amidst raw framing and piles of plaster, I slept there. My first visitors were three young guys around midnight who probably thought they were checking out an empty, spooky old house. They woke me up and I grabbed an 18" prybar (nasty thing with sharp teeth) and ran at them. Now, here's the difference: I stopped before sinking it in their foreheads, which I was more than ready to do, and did the whole 'who the hell are you' thing. No fatalities, not even a scratch, and I'm not even trained as a cop, as Officer Reaper was. I find my actions reasonable, if a little aggressive. I do not find her actions to be so, and she has been trained to handle such situations.

No, I did not try to 'make myself' threatening. I was very goddammed threatening. But I killed no one. Mostly because I am averse to taking a life. She clearly is not.

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Old 9th September 2018, 05:58 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Has she been charged? There was a bad headline on an earlier story about Dallas PD being ready to charge her but holding off and calling the Texas Rangers.

I haven't been following it closely, but as far as I can tell there's been nothing released to the public about her even being afraid. One cop talked off the record about it, but who knows if that was accurate. He described her putting down things she was holding in her hands in order to try to turn the key, and then him opening the door in his underwear, and her shooting him.

Dallas was ready to charge her with a crime, that says something.
That scenario is considerably more damning.
Where did you read it?
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Old 9th September 2018, 05:59 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
It has still not been released how she got in to the apartment where the shooting occurred.
I noted that in an edit. I am pretty sure I saw this somewhere, but did not find it in the articles mostly cited here.
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