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Old 7th September 2018, 08:36 AM   #41
Dr. Keith
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Address is 1210 S. Lamar Street, Dallas, TX. The building seems to be 4 floors but I have some doubts about it having an elevator. You can look on street view Google Maps.
I find it highly unlikely that it does not have at least one elevator.

Either way, you can be treading up the stairs and lose count just as easily as getting off on the wrong floor with an elevator.
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Old 7th September 2018, 08:40 AM   #42
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Cops say she called dispatch at 9:59pm to report the shooting. She was returning home after a full shift. Did her shift end at (say) 9pm, or did she leave early from a 10pm shift?
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Old 7th September 2018, 08:42 AM   #43
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Barring some major point that the narrative is missing, this is murder, plain and simple, isn't it?
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Old 7th September 2018, 08:42 AM   #44
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Does the exact length of time she's been off shift matter?
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Old 7th September 2018, 08:44 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Barring some major point that the narrative is missing, this is murder, plain and simple, isn't it?
So we don't go down the pedantic death spiral with the "It's not murder if it's not intentional and premeditated crowd" I'd say manslaughter.

But it's never that "plain and simple" when police are involved.
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Old 7th September 2018, 08:46 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So we don't go down the pedantic death spiral with the "It's not murder if it's not intentional and premeditated crowd" I'd say manslaughter.
I know what you mean, I really do, and the legal fictoin might be manslaughter, but we all know - if the case is as presented = that this is flat out murder.

It's only because of the uniform that it might be interpreted as manslaughter.


Quote:
But it's never that "plain and simple" when police are involved.
True.
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Old 7th September 2018, 08:55 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Does the exact length of time she's been off shift matter?
It could give insight to her drinking habits IF she were intoxicated, (drinking on the job vs. being off for an hour & pounding tequila shots) but other that that I'd say no.
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Old 7th September 2018, 08:57 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Does the exact length of time she's been off shift matter?
Did she have time to "get drunk" between shift end and arriving home? Questions about and accusations of her "drunkenness" are in this thread and also in media articles.
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Old 7th September 2018, 08:59 AM   #49
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I'm tempted to wait until we find out if she was drunk before hair splitting that.

Eye witnesses are bad about calling any odd behavior "drunk."
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Old 7th September 2018, 09:05 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I find it highly unlikely that it does not have at least one elevator.
You may be right but the website for this complex doesn't seem to mention any elevator. It's common for websites like this to mention an elevator(s) in the list of amenities - but there is no mention here.

I studied the gallery of photos and I might be seeing a steel elevator door way up on the top deck.

https://www.southsideflatsapts.com
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Old 7th September 2018, 09:06 AM   #51
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As far as the issue of drunk or not drunk, I've been just as incapacitated by being exhausted as I have been from a few drinks. If she didn't sleep well the night before and had a long and active shift she may have just been exhausted and not thinking well. Throw in the fact that lots of officers work overtime or other security jobs and it is just as likely that she was exhausted. But, the issue of her intoxication or other type of incapacitation is surely one that will come up as the case develops, either to pin her to the cross or help her avoid prosecution.
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Old 7th September 2018, 09:13 AM   #52
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Felony stupid cop who can't conceive she might be wrong.

Is she fired yet?
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Old 7th September 2018, 09:14 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I know what you mean, I really do, and the legal fictoin might be manslaughter, but we all know - if the case is as presented = that this is flat out murder.

It's only because of the uniform that it might be interpreted as manslaughter.
It seems to me that it fits the definition of voluntary manslaughter to a T. There's no reason (based, of course, on the very limited evidence we've seen so far) to suppose she deliberately planned to kill this particular individual, or that she had any prior intention of killing anyone; she was simply so negligent in her actions that she culpably caused the death of the victim. In fact, if "imperfect self-defense," the honest but unreasonable belief that the actions were necessary to counter an attack, is a category of voluntary manslaughter in Texas law, then absent any other compelling evidence it should be a slam-dunk case. Except, of course, that she's a police officer.

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Old 7th September 2018, 09:17 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
It seems to me that it fits the definition of voluntary manslaughter to a T. There's no reason to suppose she deliberately planned to kill this particular individual, or that she had any prior intention of killing anyone;
My, uniformed, view would be that the point at which she pulled her firearm from her holster and pointed it at a man who was no threat was the prior intention.

I appreciate I may be wrong from a legal point of view, but the 'there was no intent' thing would seem to make any killing not planned a day in advance not murder. I meet a bloke on the street, I don't like his face, I kill him. It wasn't planned, not until I decided I didn't like his face, therefore not murder.

Again, I realise my view probably doesn't match the actual, legal position.


Quote:
she was simply so negligent in her actions that she culpably caused the death of the victim. In fact, if "imperfect self-defense," the honest but unreasonable belief that the actions were necessary to counter an attack, is a category of voluntary manslaughter in Texas law, then absent any other compelling evidence it should be a slam-dunk case. Except, of course, that she's a police officer.

Dave
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Old 7th September 2018, 09:50 AM   #55
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This reminds me of a similar case in Denmark a couple of years ago. However, the killer was a high-school teacher and used a knife:


Quote:
Under retssagen har den 34-årige nægtet sig skyldig og har forklaret, at det var en misforståelse, der ledte til Ernst Ellebyes død. Den dømte drabsmand havde angiveligt forvekslet den ældre mands lejlighed med sin egen og troede, at den 74-årige var en indbrudstyv.
Derfor kæmpede gymnasielæreren sig vej ind i lejligheden, hvor han sloges med den fysisk underlegne, ældre mand. Obduktionen viste, at Ernst Ellebye blandt andet var ramt af adskillige knivstik og blevet trampet i brystet.
Gymnasielærer dømt: 12 års fængsel for brutalt drab
(B.T., Dec. 2, 2014)

My translation:
High-school teacher sentenced: 12 years in jail for brutal killing
During the trial the 34-year-old claimed that he was innocent an explained that a misunderstanding led to the death of Ernst Ellebye. The convicted killer had allegedly confused the elderly man’s apartment with his own and thought that the 74-year-old was a burglar.
That is why the high-school teacher fought his way into the apartment where he had a fight with the physically inferior elderly man. The autopsy showed that, among other things, Ernst Ellebye had been stabbed several times and his chest had been stamped on.


They were both white, by the way ...
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Old 7th September 2018, 10:03 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You may be right but the website for this complex doesn't seem to mention any elevator. It's common for websites like this to mention an elevator(s) in the list of amenities - but there is no mention here.

I studied the gallery of photos and I might be seeing a steel elevator door way up on the top deck.

https://www.southsideflatsapts.com
A modern four-story commercial building would have to be handicapped-accessible to meet building codes, and in a competitive market nobody would rent a third- or fourth-story walkup. I think elevators can be assumed.

Last edited by Bob001; 7th September 2018 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 7th September 2018, 10:10 AM   #57
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If she's outside the door, yelling "open up", then the situation should have been called in on the radio. At that point, she supposedly believes that she has a burglar trapped in her own apartment. She can't cover the situation by herself at that point.

If the guy does not open the door, she'd have had to break it down by herself to get in.
If she broke in, the guy inside might have gone after the intruder breaking in, not realizing it was a nutty cop. Therefore she gets to shoot him.

If the guy does open the door because he sees a cop outside, how does he then get shot? He knows it's a cop, so he's just going to open the door and ask her what she wants.

I'm leaning toward the "broke in" scenario.

I wonder if she identified herself prior to entering? It seems like identifying herself should have ended the situation.
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Old 7th September 2018, 10:14 AM   #58
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Quote:
The elevators always smell like piss.
From a review...
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Old 7th September 2018, 10:18 AM   #59
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PD was supposed to give a press conference at 11:30, Dallas time I assume. Anybody?
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Old 7th September 2018, 10:20 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
A modern four-story commercial building would have to be handicapped-accessible to meet building codes, and in a competitive market nobody would rent a third- or fourth-story walkup. I think elevators can be assumed.
I'm now in full agreement. Here is the photo where I think I can see a metal elevator door.

Photo.
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Old 7th September 2018, 10:22 AM   #61
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I wonder if she is going to claim she must have unknowingly touched something containing Fentanyl, and was messed up.

https://www.ems1.com/fentanyl/articl...lice-vehicles/

^^ This happened in Texas BTW
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Old 7th September 2018, 10:25 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
If she's outside the door, yelling "open up", then the situation should have been called in on the radio. At that point, she supposedly believes that she has a burglar trapped in her own apartment. She can't cover the situation by herself at that point.

If the guy does not open the door, she'd have had to break it down by herself to get in.
If she broke in, the guy inside might have gone after the intruder breaking in, not realizing it was a nutty cop. Therefore she gets to shoot him.

If the guy does open the door because he sees a cop outside, how does he then get shot? He knows it's a cop, so he's just going to open the door and ask her what she wants.

I'm leaning toward the "broke in" scenario.
.....
"Breaking in?" How? Getting through a commercial apartment door, probably steel, wouldn't be that easy, especially if she wasn't walking around with a crowbar and fireax. If her key didn't work, and she still thought she was at the right unit, most people would think "there's something wrong with my lock" and call maintenance. Breaking in would cause a lot of damage, for which she would be billed.

I think it might be more likely that the legal resident heard somebody fiddling with his lock, opened the door to see what's going on, and got shot without much conversation.
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Old 7th September 2018, 10:26 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm now in full agreement. Here is the photo where I think I can see a metal elevator door.

Photo.


Yeah, I was going to post that picture, that's clearly an elevator.
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Old 7th September 2018, 10:29 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I think it might be more likely that the legal resident heard somebody fiddling with his lock, opened the door to see what's going on, and got shot without much conversation.

He might have also shouted "Who's there?" when he heard her at the door, at which point she freaked out at someone else being in "her" apartment. I suspect things would go downhill rapidly from there.
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Old 7th September 2018, 10:43 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
"Breaking in?" How? Getting through a commercial apartment door, probably steel, wouldn't be that easy, especially if she wasn't walking around with a crowbar and fireax. If her key didn't work, and she still thought she was at the right unit, most people would think "there's something wrong with my lock" and call maintenance. Breaking in would cause a lot of damage, for which she would be billed.

I think it might be more likely that the legal resident heard somebody fiddling with his lock, opened the door to see what's going on, and got shot without much conversation.
My apartment door is an ordinary wooden house door. Easily kicked in.

Your scenario certainly fits, though.

I personally wouldn't open the door in that situation. Someone fiddling with the knob, trying to get into my home? I'd call the police.
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Old 7th September 2018, 10:44 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
He might have also shouted "Who's there?" when he heard her at the door, at which point she freaked out at someone else being in "her" apartment. I suspect things would go downhill rapidly from there.
She should answer "Police Officer!" loudly, and that should end the situation.
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Old 7th September 2018, 10:45 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
As far as the issue of drunk or not drunk, I've been just as incapacitated by being exhausted as I have been from a few drinks. If she didn't sleep well the night before and had a long and active shift she may have just been exhausted and not thinking well. Throw in the fact that lots of officers work overtime or other security jobs and it is just as likely that she was exhausted. But, the issue of her intoxication or other type of incapacitation is surely one that will come up as the case develops, either to pin her to the cross or help her avoid prosecution.

I believe your first sentence may be the reason why she will not receive any punishment. The jury would be sympathetic to the totally exhausted story since most of us can relate. I remember back in the day falling asleep on the subway and waking up in shock to find out that "this was my stop!" and quickly running out of the carriage and even through the turnstile before I realized that it wasn't my stop. I had one more stop to make. And I even had to buy another ticket since I went through the turnstile! Now, granted, I didn't kill anybody, although I almost killed my self for being so stupid, good thing everyone taking the subway was just a nameless stranger so nobody recognized me.
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Old 7th September 2018, 10:45 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
If the guy does open the door because he sees a cop outside, how does he then get shot? He knows it's a cop, so he's just going to open the door and ask her what she wants.
Here's an idea...

She can't get the key to work. He hears this and yells something from deeper in the apartment. She hears his voice but still doesn't realize that it's not her place. She draws her gun and is prepared to fire thinking it's an armed burglar. She yells, "Open up!". He comes to the door with cellphone-in-hand and looks through the peephole. He sees a uniformed cop and opens the door. She sees the cellphone and thinks it's a gun and instantly shoots him. Then she looks past him (crumpled on the floor) and sees that it's not her apartment.
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Old 7th September 2018, 10:52 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Here's an idea...

She can't get the key to work. He hears this and yells something from deeper in the apartment. She hears his voice but still doesn't realize that it's not her place. She draws her gun and is prepared to fire thinking it's an armed burglar. She yells, "Open up!". He comes to the door with cellphone-in-hand and looks through the peephole. He sees a uniformed cop and opens the door. She sees the cellphone and thinks it's a gun and instantly shoots him. Then she looks past him (crumpled on the floor) and sees that it's not her apartment.
Plausible. But if your a burglar why would you yell anything?
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Old 7th September 2018, 10:53 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Here's an idea...

She can't get the key to work. He hears this and yells something from deeper in the apartment. She hears his voice but still doesn't realize that it's not her place. She draws her gun and is prepared to fire thinking it's an armed burglar. She yells, "Open up!". He comes to the door with cellphone-in-hand and looks through the peephole. He sees a uniformed cop and opens the door. She sees the cellphone and thinks it's a gun and instantly shoots him. Then she looks past him (crumpled on the floor) and sees that it's not her apartment.
The doors have keypads that you can use instead of the key. Apparently she thought he changed her keypad code, too...
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Old 7th September 2018, 10:54 AM   #71
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From news reports, the doors are numbered.
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 7th September 2018, 10:57 AM   #72
Bob001
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
My apartment door is an ordinary wooden house door. Easily kicked in.
.....
But if your key didn't work, would your first choice be to kick the door down? As opposed to calling the landlord or maybe a locksmith? (As an aside, it's astonishing how quickly a locksmith can open a locked door without a key. Let's hope they're all honest.)

Last edited by Bob001; 7th September 2018 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 7th September 2018, 11:02 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
I believe your first sentence may be the reason why she will not receive any punishment. The jury would be sympathetic to the totally exhausted story since most of us can relate.
.....
Let's not go too far down that road. Cops can already kill at will by claiming they are "scared for their lives." Let's not add "I was tired!" to the list. There's no possible justification for killing a random guy in his own home that the cop had no right to even be in.
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Old 7th September 2018, 11:04 AM   #74
LTC8K6
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But if your key didn't work, would your first choice be to kick the door down? As opposed to maybe calling the landlord or maybe a locksmith? (As an aside, it's astonishing how quickly a locksmith can open a locked door without a key. Let's hope they're all honest.)
Yes, I've had occasion to call a locksmith. What they can do in a couple minutes makes you realize locks are for chumps.

The one I called for my office door re-keyed it astonishingly fast.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 7th September 2018, 11:06 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
From news reports, the doors are numbered.
Does the door number incorporate the floor number as well i.e. app 7 on the 3rd and 4th floor is 37 and 47 respectively?
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Old 7th September 2018, 11:07 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Plausible. But if your a burglar why would you yell anything?
She may have thought that it's not worth the risk of losing her own life on the idea that an armed burglar will never ever yell anything.

Somebody has entered my apartment and locked me out. They are potentially a very dangerous thing whether they yell something or not.
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Old 7th September 2018, 11:08 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Does the door number incorporate the floor number as well i.e. app 7 on the 3rd and 4th floor is 37 and 47 respectively?
I haven't heard yet.

But residents say the doors have keypads as well as keys, so I don't know what the officer thought. I guess her code didn't work, so she tried the key.

At some point she figured out someone was inside.

I'd like to know if she called in an active burglary.
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 7th September 2018, 11:12 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Not sure how it is possible to be this stupid and still manage to function normally up until last night.
It's an open question whether she did function normally.
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Old 7th September 2018, 11:12 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
But residents say the doors have keypads as well as keys, so I don't know what the officer thought. I guess her code didn't work, so she tried the key.
Maybe she never uses the keypad and maybe she hasn't got the passcode in her head anyway.
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Old 7th September 2018, 11:17 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I haven't heard yet.

But residents say the doors have keypads as well as keys, so I don't know what the officer thought. I guess her code didn't work, so she tried the key.

At some point she figured out someone was inside.

I'd like to know if she called in an active burglary.
Because the burglar had turned the TV on?
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