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Old 9th September 2018, 10:04 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I agree the issue of lock details seems like a derail if, as it appears, the occupant opened the door from inside. Under what circumstances would he have been shot then, unless she already had her gun at the ready, and did not wait for an explanation and did not look beyond the man in front of her to notice that it wasn't her house?
....
I could imagine something like this:
1/ She rattles the lock trying to use the wrong key.
2/ He hears someone at the door and goes to see what's up.
3/ She hears movement or other noises inside "her" place that she "knows" is empty.
4/ She draws her gun.
5/ He opens the door.
6/ She sees strange (as in unknown) black man and fires instantly.

If there had been any conversation -- "What are you doing here?" "I live here. What are you doing here?" Etc. -- this couldn't have happened.
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:08 AM   #202
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If this truly was a mistake by a sober woman who walked into the wrong apartment and freaked out, what would be the point of prosecuting her? I don't think I could make that kind of mistake, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility, and if I did see a strange man in what I thought was my apartment and I had a gun, perhaps I would react the same way. Again, I don't think I would, but I can see how a person might react that way.
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:21 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
If this truly was a mistake by a sober woman who walked into the wrong apartment and freaked out, what would be the point of prosecuting her? I don't think I could make that kind of mistake, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility, and if I did see a strange man in what I thought was my apartment and I had a gun, perhaps I would react the same way. Again, I don't think I would, but I can see how a person might react that way.
And if you did kill a stranger as a result of your own stupidity, you would be prosecuted. There are levels of criminal culpability below first degree murder. But you don't get to just say "Ah, my mistake."
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:22 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
If this truly was a mistake by a sober woman who walked into the wrong apartment and freaked out, what would be the point of prosecuting her? I don't think I could make that kind of mistake, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility, and if I did see a strange man in what I thought was my apartment and I had a gun, perhaps I would react the same way. Again, I don't think I would, but I can see how a person might react that way.
Seriously WTF?
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:29 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
If this truly was a mistake by a sober woman who walked into the wrong apartment and freaked out, what would be the point of prosecuting her?
She would immediately be deprived of the opportunity to do anything so stupid ever again, thus protecting society from her incompetence.

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Old 9th September 2018, 10:33 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
And if you did kill a stranger as a result of your own stupidity, you would be prosecuted. There are levels of criminal culpability below first degree murder. But you don't get to just say "Ah, my mistake."
Prosecutors have discretion in who they prosecute. Let's take a scenario where stupidity (or forgetfulness or misperceiving) results in a death: I'm driving and think I see something like a person run out of the forest from the corner of my eye. I swerve and then realize there's no one there. I then overcorrect and smash into a car head-on, killing a person. I freely admit to the police that there wasn't anyone actually in the forest running into the road, but for a second I thought there was.

Should I be prosecuted?
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:38 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
She would immediately be deprived of the opportunity to do anything so stupid ever again, thus protecting society from her incompetence.

Dave
Is she a danger to society? Do you think she'll do this again? Is there any history of this ever happening with her before?
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:39 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Prosecutors have discretion in who they prosecute. Let's take a scenario where stupidity (or forgetfulness or misperceiving) results in a death: I'm driving and think I see something like a person run out of the forest from the corner of my eye. I swerve and then realize there's no one there. I then overcorrect and smash into a car head-on, killing a person. I freely admit to the police that there wasn't anyone actually in the forest running into the road, but for a second I thought there was.

Should I be prosecuted?
Not a comparable situation at all. You didn't intend to hit another car. She deliberately killed a man in a place where she had no right to even be. And even under hypothetical circumstances most favorable to her, if she had been at her own place, and the guy had been a burglar, she would still have to prove that she was reasonably in fear for her life. This was no traffic accident.

ETA: And if you had been drinking or drugged, that would be the primary factor to consider, no matter what you thought you saw.

Last edited by Bob001; 9th September 2018 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:43 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Is she a danger to society? Do you think she'll do this again? Is there any history of this ever happening with her before?
Who are you? Where are you? People go to prison every day for crimes they are unlikely to commit again. Gross negligence by itself can be a crime. People aren't supposed to kill other people without good cause and dance away.

And her -- and the police dept.'s -- civil liability will be seven figures, minimum. Or you think we should just forget that too?
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:47 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Not a comparable situation at all.
It's comparable in the sense that people died as a result of actions I took that were based faulty perceptions.


Quote:
You didn't intend to hit another car.
Would you suggest charging her with murder? I can see a manslaughter charge, but do you think she intended to go in the wrong apartment and shoot someone?

Quote:
She deliberately killed a man in a place where she had no right to even be. And even under hypothetical circumstances most favorable to her, if she had been at her own place, and the guy had been a burglar, she would still have to prove that she was reasonably in fear for her life. This was no traffic accident.
That's not a stretch. A strange man in a woman's apartment? Of course she would be afraid. She might perhaps fear for her life. Women get killed by men all the time.

Of course the situation changes if she was drinking or drugged. I stipulated that she was sober.

Last edited by Fudbucker; 9th September 2018 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:48 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But how would they lock you out when you've got the key? Would you think a burglar changed the lock? It's not like pushing on the door and finding it barricaded.
House I once lived in, if there was a key in the lock on the inside of the front door, you couldn't unlock it (with another key) from outside.
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:53 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Who are you? Where are you? People go to prison every day for crimes they are unlikely to commit again. Gross negligence by itself can be a crime. People aren't supposed to kill other people without good cause and dance away.
Shooting of Kathryn Steinle
Was that a miscarriage of justice?

When I was a sophomore in high school, we had a girl die. Her brother (16) was cleaning a gun and stupidly pointed it at her to scare her. He dropped it, it went off, the bullet hit her shoulder blade and deflected into her heart. Nobody was prosecuted. Should someone have been?

How many hunters over the years haven't been prosecuted for accidentally shooting someone? I bet the number is pretty high. Remember when Dick Cheney shot his friend? Should he have been charged?

Quote:
And her -- and the police dept.'s -- civil liability will be seven figures, minimum. Or you think we should just forget that too?
We're talking criminal charges.

Last edited by Fudbucker; 9th September 2018 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 9th September 2018, 10:57 AM   #213
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Dave Chappelle used to have a bit about this situation. "I've seen this before, Johnson. A ****** breaks into someone's apartment and then puts up pictures of his family. Sprinkle some crack on him."
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:05 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
.....
Would you suggest charging her with murder? I can see a manslaughter charge,
....
And what I said was:
Quote:
There are levels of criminal culpability below first degree murder. But you don't get to just say "Ah, my mistake."
Yes, manslaughter or the equivalent would probably be the right charge. And Dallas police initially said that they would seek a warrant on that charge.

Texas appears to have four levels of homicide: murder, capital murder, manslaughter, and criminally negligent homicide.
https://www.zenlawfirm.com/law-blog/...cide-in-texas/
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:11 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Shooting of Kathryn Steinle
Was that a miscarriage of justice?
.....
What does that have to do with anything. That's a Trumper meme. The guy was determined by a jury not to have intended to harm anybody. The prosecutor may have erred in charging him with 1st degree murder in the first place. Unless this cop claims her gun went off "by accident," she shot him deliberately and intended to do so.

ETA: And if one of her civilian neighbors had done exactly the same thing, he would be in jail now.

Last edited by Bob001; 9th September 2018 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:14 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
This photo of his door seems to show that there is no electronic lock at all.

https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpre...18/09/door.jpg
No apartment number, either.
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:18 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
And what I said was:


Yes, manslaughter or the equivalent would probably be the right charge. And Dallas police initially said that they would seek a warrant on that charge.

Texas appears to have four levels of homicide: murder, capital murder, manslaughter, and criminally negligent homicide.
https://www.zenlawfirm.com/law-blog/...cide-in-texas/
Oh, dear. I fear that this might confound things even further.
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:22 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Oh, dear. I fear that this might confound things even further.
Every state has similar distinctions, depending on intent, premeditation, etc. No surprise here.
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:24 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Is she a danger to society? Do you think she'll do this again? Is there any history of this ever happening with her before?
I'll never understanding this utter obsession with determining recidivism before we're allowed to punish anyone for doing something.

Essentially you're arguing that everybody gets one free.

Oswald probably wasn't going to shoot another President either. And? Your point?
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:27 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Prosecutors have discretion in who they prosecute. Let's take a scenario where stupidity (or forgetfulness or misperceiving) results in a death: I'm driving and think I see something like a person run out of the forest from the corner of my eye. I swerve and then realize there's no one there. I then overcorrect and smash into a car head-on, killing a person. I freely admit to the police that there wasn't anyone actually in the forest running into the road, but for a second I thought there was.

Should I be prosecuted?
My cousin fell asleep coming home from a double shift & ran over a girl waiting for a school bus. He got 8 years.
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:27 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
If this truly was a mistake by a sober woman who walked into the wrong apartment and freaked out, what would be the point of prosecuting her? I don't think I could make that kind of mistake, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility, and if I did see a strange man in what I thought was my apartment and I had a gun, perhaps I would react the same way. Again, I don't think I would, but I can see how a person might react that way.
I would suggest that the point of prosecuting her would be the point of prosecuting anyone for something they don't routinely do. She's shown herself to be irresponsible, unreliable, and lethally dangerous to the public. I can see how she might have reacted that way, just as I can see all sorts of reasons for doing something one realizes later was wrong. At the very least she should never again in her life be holding a gun in her hands.
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:28 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'll never understanding this utter obsession with determining recidivism before we're allowed to punish anyone for doing something.

Essentially you're arguing that everybody gets one free.

Oswald probably wasn't going to shoot another President either. And? Your point?
What is the point of punishment? I can think of three justifications: to remove a dangerous person from society, to send a message to other members of society, or to get a person to change their behavior.

Which of the three apply here?
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:30 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I would suggest that the point of prosecuting her would be the point of prosecuting anyone for something they don't routinely do. She's shown herself to be irresponsible, unreliable, and lethally dangerous to the public. I can see how she might have reacted that way, just as I can see all sorts of reasons for doing something one realizes later was wrong. At the very least she should never again in her life be holding a gun in her hands.
Do you think every hunter who accidentally kills someone is prosecuted? Do you think they should be? The situation seems directly analogous to a hunter who mistakes his buddy for a deer and shoots him.
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:31 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
What is the point of punishment? I can think of three justifications: to remove a dangerous person from society, to send a message to other members of society, or to get a person to change their behavior.

Which of the three apply here?
All three until we know otherwise.
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:31 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Every state has similar distinctions, depending on intent, premeditation, etc. No surprise here.
Thanks, Bob001. I was thinking more of out resident Euro audience who will now insist that it is "x". Well, no in the USA, it's actually x, capital x, x-1, and x-2.

"I don't care what you say it's still x!"

I'm just trying to rein in the petty bickering that will no doubt ensue.*





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Old 9th September 2018, 11:32 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
No apartment number, either.
Can't tell from the picture, but I would bet the number is engraved on the door knocker. They have to have a number somewhere.

ETA: And that red door mat should have been a tip-off, especially to a trained investigator.

Last edited by Bob001; 9th September 2018 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:36 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
What is the point of punishment? I can think of three justifications: to remove a dangerous person from society, to send a message to other members of society, or to get a person to change their behavior.

Which of the three apply here?
I'm not interested in going down a Bob-hole of Law Theory 101.

I'm saying your first crime can't be a "gimme."

And again elephant in the room if the guy had panicked and shot the cop, nobody would be worried about the odds that he would do it again, they'd be calling for his head.
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:37 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Do you think every hunter who accidentally kills someone is prosecuted? Do you think they should be? The situation seems directly analogous to a hunter who mistakes his buddy for a deer and shoots him.
No it's not. And slob hunters can be and have been prosecuted for homicide.
1/ She had no right to be there in the first place.
2/ She had no good reason to believe her life was in danger.

This didn't have to happen -- and it shouldn't have happened.
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:37 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
My cousin fell asleep coming home from a double shift & ran over a girl waiting for a school bus. He got 8 years.
Driving while very tired is not a smart thing to do. What did this woman do that was equivalent? She mistook someone else's apartment for her own, and events spiraled out of control. The catalyst to all this was the mistaken identification. If that was an honest mistake on her part, one we all are capable of making, what are we punishing her for?
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:38 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
No it's not. And slob hunters can be and have been prosecuted for homicide.
1/ She had no right to be there in the first place.
Yes, that is stipulated. Charge her for trespassing.


Quote:
2/ She had no good reason to believe her life was in danger.
How do you know that?

Quote:
This didn't have to happen -- and it shouldn't have happened.
You can say that about any tragedy.
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:40 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
If that was an honest mistake on her part, one we all are capable of making, what are we punishing her for?
This is incredibly fallacious, basically it is going "I can imagine myself doing this, ergo it can't be a crime."
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:42 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This is incredibly fallacious, basically it is going "I can imagine myself doing this, ergo it can't be a crime."
Yes, "I can imagine myself doing this". Now, what is "this"? It's mistaking an apartment for my own. Can I also imagine myself as someone who thinks there's an intruder in her apartment and is scared? Of course.
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:45 AM   #233
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If you can imagine yourself going into the wrong apartment and shooting somebody over it that's your problem.

Again every possible scenario you could wind up end doesn't get taken off the "crime" list.
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:47 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
....
How do you know that?
....
He was the lawful resident answering noises at the door of his home. It's up to her to prove that he was a threat to her life, not up to anyone else to prove he wasn't.

Thought exercise: Suppose under identical circumstances, a black man with a criminal record shot and killed a white grandmother opening her door? Does he get a pass? Hell, she could have had a derringer in her apron pocket! He was scared for his life!

And we expect cops -- whom we endow with the power of life and death -- to display better judgment. A civilian, even in Texas, would not have been likely to draw a gun. There would have been a brief conversation at the door -- "618?" "No, 418," and that would have been the end of it. Cops aren't licensed to kill.

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Old 9th September 2018, 11:52 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
This photo of his door seems to show that there is no electronic lock at all.

https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpre...18/09/door.jpg

If the electronic release mechanism is operated by a fob then the only electrical components need could be on the inside of the door. The deadbolt lock on the outside would still use a key in the event that the electrically operated mechanism failed (batteries in fob or door mechanism, etc).

Guyger may well have tried the fob release, and then when that didn't work (because it wasn't her door) she then tried her key. Which also didn't work. For the same reason.

I read a bunch of reviews of the apartment building which predate this event, and they are nearly unanimous in their complaints about the poor maintenance since the most recent owner took over. They might expect to need their keys routinely.
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:53 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Can't tell from the picture, but I would bet the number is engraved on the door knocker. They have to have a number somewhere.
Really? Is there some sort of weird aversion to having prominent numbers on doors over there?
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:54 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
He was the lawful resident answering noises at the door of his home. It's up to her to prove that he was a threat to her life, not up to anyone else to prove he wasn't.
Yes, it goes to her state of mind. And her state of mind appears to have been "there's a strange person in my apartment". Her state of mind isn't accurate, but it doesn't have to be in order for it to be a defense.

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Thought exercise: Suppose under identical circumstances, a black man with a criminal record shot and killed a white grandmother opening her door? Does he get a pass? Hell, she could have had a derringer in her apron pocket! He was scared for his life!
Do white grandmothers kill black men? No? Then the situation is not remotely similar. Do you think if there had been a little girl in the apartment she would have shot her? I doubt it. But men do kill women, so she had a prima facie reason to be scared.

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And we expect cops -- whom we endow with the power of life and death -- to display better judgment. A civilian, even in Texas, would not have been likely to draw a gun. There would have been a brief conversation at the door -- "618?" "No, 418," and that would have been the end of it. Cops aren't licensed to kill.
She should definitely never be a cop again. But the issue is whether she should be charged.

Last edited by Fudbucker; 9th September 2018 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:54 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
No apartment number, either.

It doesn't show the whole door. Or all of the walls beside the door.

It does show the bright red doormat, which Officer Guyger doesn't have in front of her own door.
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:56 AM   #239
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Or yelling 'police!' as she drew should have been response number one. Have a hard time believing she wasn't trained to do that
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Old 9th September 2018, 11:59 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Driving while very tired is not a smart thing to do. What did this woman do that was equivalent?
Yes. Do you think shooting someone for being home is a smart thing to do?

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She mistook someone else's apartment for her own, and events spiraled out of control. The catalyst to all this was the mistaken identification.
The catalyst for running over that girl was the mistaken identification of how tired he was. He'd made that drive dozens if not hundreds of times without incident. This time there was one.

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If that was an honest mistake on her part, one we all are capable of making, what are we punishing her for?
I've made the mistake of going to the wrong door several times. A few of them I was armed. I didn't shoot, club or stab anyone.

She should be punished because he mistake cost someone their life.
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