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Tags atheism , stephen hawking

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Old 20th October 2018, 03:31 PM   #41
qayak
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Hawking: there is no god.
God: there is no more Hawking

I wonder if Hawking was a member here. Of course, Hawking treasured his anonymity, frequently wearing sunglasses and a wig. Unfortunately, the wheelchair gave him away.

In purgatory, they probably wired up his box to Rodney Dangerfield’s voice: what’s a guy gotta do to get a Nobel prize around here, I tell you, no respect, no respect at all....
Hawking: Existence has been proved; body of work led to a greater understanding of our universe; inspired millions to become more educated; helped millions more understand science better.

God: No evidence, let alone proof, of existence; body of supposed work led to millions being killed, tortured and millions of children being raped; he inspires billions to become supremely ignorant; he inspires billions to hatred and intolerance.

Score:

Hawking - 4 God - 0
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Old 20th October 2018, 03:48 PM   #42
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Hawking: Existence has been proved; body of work led to a greater understanding of our universe; inspired millions to become more educated; helped millions more understand science better.

God: No evidence, let alone proof, of existence; body of supposed work led to millions being killed, tortured and millions of children being raped; he inspires billions to become supremely ignorant; he inspires billions to hatred and intolerance.

Score:

Hawking - 4 God - 0
Oof, negative 4 for Hawking. Rough, yo.
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Old 20th October 2018, 04:33 PM   #43
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In the way a mouse is unaware of the larger world, so might we be the "mouse" unaware of a larger universe. There might not be a god in the way ancient people envisioned but it doesn't mean there isn't some grander scheme of order that prevails that dictates our reality. I can't see human consciousness much less god consciousness but it doesn't mean something isn't there driving the underpinning of the whole of creation.
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Old 20th October 2018, 05:02 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
In the way a mouse is unaware of the larger world, so might we be the "mouse" unaware of a larger universe. There might not be a god in the way ancient people envisioned but it doesn't mean there isn't some grander scheme of order that prevails that dictates our reality. I can't see human consciousness much less god consciousness but it doesn't mean something isn't there driving the underpinning of the whole of creation.
Really? Awesome.

I eagerly await ANY evidence to support this "hypothesis".
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Old 20th October 2018, 05:14 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
Really? Awesome.

I eagerly await ANY evidence to support this "hypothesis".
Maybe this is the Universe with a God?
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Old 20th October 2018, 05:22 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
In the way a mouse is unaware of the larger world, so might we be the "mouse" unaware of a larger universe. There might not be a god in the way ancient people envisioned but it doesn't mean there isn't some grander scheme of order that prevails that dictates our reality. I can't see human consciousness much less god consciousness but it doesn't mean something isn't there driving the underpinning of the whole of creation.
And what underpins the underpinning? Or is it turtles all the way down?
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Old 20th October 2018, 05:26 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Maybe this is the Universe with a God?
Didn't really think that one through did you?
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Old 20th October 2018, 05:29 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oof, negative 4 for Hawking. Rough, yo.
- 4 does not equal -4, yo.
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Old 20th October 2018, 05:33 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Didn't really think that one through did you?
Gosh, I did, because Hawking speculated about multiple Universes... so, give it a noodle and see if you can think what I was suggesting?
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Old 20th October 2018, 05:40 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Gosh, I did, because Hawking speculated about multiple Universes... so, give it a noodle and see if you can think what I was suggesting?
Oh, I know what you were suggesting it's just that you obviously didn't understand the implications of that thought as it floated through your noggin.
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Old 20th October 2018, 05:47 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Oh, I know what you were suggesting it's just that you obviously didn't understand the implications of that thought as it floated through your noggin.
Really. Tell us what I was thinking:

Tick tock
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Old 20th October 2018, 05:55 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Really. Tell us what I was thinking:

Tick tock
Better yet, you try sorting out the error you made.
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Old 20th October 2018, 06:01 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Better yet, you try sorting out the error you made.
Hmm, that is weird, you literally just said “I know what you were suggesting.”

As such, given that you know, I simply asked to state what you know, and rather than doing that you basically said “no, you!”

It is ok, no one really thought there was the slightest chance you were not lying.

It is cool.
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Old 20th October 2018, 06:08 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Stephen Hawking
If you accept, as I do, that the laws of nature are fixed, then it doesn't take long to ask: What role is there for God?
That seems a little more evangelistic than I would have expected of a scientist.

Hawking seems to claim that the universe and all of the laws that govern it are knowable. Yet at this point in time, we can't even argue that the universe is deterministic (if it were then consciousness and free will would be myths). Most of the equations that we have to describe the universe stem from quantum wave equations (equations of probability). That screams "we don't know".
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Old 20th October 2018, 06:11 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
And what underpins the underpinning? Or is it turtles all the way down?
It's turtles all the way down, you just stop at a random, arbitrary turtle and declare it God.
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Old 20th October 2018, 06:23 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That seems a little more evangelistic than I would have expected of a scientist.

Hawking seems to claim that the universe and all of the laws that govern it are knowable.
Wait, why wouldn't they be knowable?
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Old 20th October 2018, 06:30 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Hawking seems to claim that the universe and all of the laws that govern it are knowable. Yet at this point in time, we can't even argue that the universe is deterministic (if it were then consciousness and free will would be myths). Most of the equations that we have to describe the universe stem from quantum wave equations (equations of probability). That screams "we don't know".
//Insert minimum of five page long digressions where we debate the difference between "Currently unknown, perhaps even requiring a major new field of study or paradigm shift to discover" and "Woo woo forever unknowable woo that's the realm of God because it's woo." here.

Because when a scientist says "Unknown" or even "Unknowable" and a Woo Slinger says "Unknown" or "Unknowable" they are saying two completely different things.
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Old 20th October 2018, 06:51 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
Wait, why wouldn't they be knowable?
Because they are unobservable?

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because when a scientist says "Unknown" or even "Unknowable" and a Woo Slinger says "Unknown" or "Unknowable" they are saying two completely different things.
What are the different things they are saying?
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Old 20th October 2018, 07:12 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Hmm, that is weird, you literally just said “I know what you were suggesting.”

As such, given that you know, I simply asked to state what you know, and rather than doing that you basically said “no, you!”

It is ok, no one really thought there was the slightest chance you were not lying.

It is cool.
Nice! You almost managed to followed our exchange. I pointed out an error in logic that you made and instead of correcting the error you attempted to deflect the discussion with irrelevant questions.

I have BBQed salmon for dinner once every couple of weeks or so. My wife does a magnificent job cooking it and it is something I look forward to. Luckily I had it tonight for dinner. Unfortunately, my wife is leaving tomorrow for a month in Nepal so I won't be having it for at least that long. However, my loss does give us a bit of a time line to work with in a challenge to you. I challenge you to figure out the error you made before my wife gets back from Nepal and cooks the next salmon on the BBQ. That gives you a minimum of one month to work it out and possibly longer, maybe as much as 6 or 7 weeks, should you require more time. Good luck, little buddy.
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Old 20th October 2018, 07:33 PM   #60
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Oh, I know what you were suggesting it's just that you obviously didn't understand the implications of that thought as it floated through your noggin.
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Really. Tell us what I was thinking:

Tick tock
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Nice! You almost managed to followed our exchange. I pointed out an error in logic that you made and instead of correcting the error you attempted to deflect the discussion with irrelevant questions.

I have BBQed salmon for dinner once every couple of weeks or so. My wife does a magnificent job cooking it and it is something I look forward to. Luckily I had it tonight for dinner. Unfortunately, my wife is leaving tomorrow for a month in Nepal so I won't be having it for at least that long. However, my loss does give us a bit of a time line to work with in a challenge to you. I challenge you to figure out the error you made before my wife gets back from Nepal and cooks the next salmon on the BBQ. That gives you a minimum of one month to work it out and possibly longer, maybe as much as 6 or 7 weeks, should you require more time. Good luck, little buddy.
Golly! You managed to type all those words without actually, you know, telling us what you so confidently declared, what was it again?

“I know what you were suggesting.”

Hmm, it has been quite clearly shown that you don’t because had you, you would have, you know, told us what you

“Know what you were suggesting”

Rather than typing out all that nonsense about, what was it? Oh yeah, what you had for dinner, which is hilarious. Let’s follow the conversation...

I know what you were suggesting!
O’rly, what was it?
No you!
Chuckling, we knew you were not going to do it.
I had salmon!

That is fantastic.
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Old 20th October 2018, 07:36 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Golly! You managed to type all those words without actually, you know, telling us what you so confidently declared, what was it again?

“I know what you were suggesting.”

Hmm, it has been quite clearly shown that you don’t because had you, you would have, you know, told us what you

“Know what you were suggesting”

Rather than typing out all that nonsense about, what was it? Oh yeah, what you had for dinner, which is hilarious. Let’s follow the conversation...

I know what you were suggesting!
O’rly, what was it?
No you!
Chuckling, we knew you were not going to do it.
I had salmon!

That is fantastic.
Come on, little buddy, you can do it!
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Old 20th October 2018, 07:42 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Come on, little buddy, you can do it!
Hey! Nice, this time you totally dodged the question, again, but used less words.

Still sticking with the “no you,” which is surprisingly not a step up from telling us about what you had for dinner.

“I know what you were suggesting.”

No you did not, but keep lying about it.

Type “little buddy” again.

Fantastic!
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Old 20th October 2018, 08:55 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Hey! Nice, this time you totally dodged the question, again, but used less words.

Still sticking with the “no you,” which is surprisingly not a step up from telling us about what you had for dinner.

“I know what you were suggesting.”

No you did not, but keep lying about it.

Type “little buddy” again.

Fantastic!
Keeping working, little buddy. Remember the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. You can do it!
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Old 20th October 2018, 09:08 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
God invoked the Big Bang, then stopped for lunch. In God's time, that was only about ten minutes ago in our time.
we don't pay him for that.
Get back to work, or you are FIRED!
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Old 20th October 2018, 09:52 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Oh, I know what you were suggesting it's just that you obviously didn't understand the implications of that thought as it floated through your noggin.
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Really. Tell us what I was thinking:

Tick tock
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Keeping working, little buddy. Remember the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. You can do it!
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Old 20th October 2018, 10:21 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Didn't really think that one through did you?
Keep working, little buddy!
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Old 20th October 2018, 10:29 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
'tis
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
'tisn't
Why don't we pretend that you made these posts 500 times each and move on?
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Old 20th October 2018, 10:51 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
I'm sure to some, this thread is meant to be some kind of Confirmation Bias for those who abide to Arguments from Authority, which sadly, is a logical fallacy that doesn't exclude Atheists. Surely Hawking knew the science better than any of us to reach a pretty good conjecture, but technically speaking, it is still a conjecture, not a definite assertion based on evidence. My position remains the same: The problem with the "God" argument is that the word itself can mean an infinite number of things. This is not in defense of theists, for in fact, I sustain the theory that even if we were to discover a "God", it would be so radically different from anything that any human being could even begin to imagine, that all religions would reject this "God" because it doesn't look anything at all like what they imagined in their Disneyland idealistic vision, to look like a God. What humans define as "God" is basically a projection of their own individual desires and fears. It's a God that humans created, not the other way around. If the question of "whether there is such thing as a God" were to be pursued with seriousness and intellectual honesty, it would be a scientific pursuit devoid of any emotional and personal biases. But it is not. This "debate" is basically a group of people with an emotional hunch about "something they define as God" being answered by another group of people who do not share does emotional desires for there to be one.

In short: God is dead. Hail Satan.
If a word means anything, it means nothing. The first thing a theist should do is say what he understands by "god" and then we will discuss whether that god exists.

In the meantime, the best thing is to stick to the religions we know. Since these gods do not exist and no one has proposed a different concept of god here, it can be said that gods do not exist. And there I include the Holy Trinity, Yahweh, Allah, Jupiter, Huitzilopochtli, Odin, and so on.

NOTE: It is a fact that the attempts to make a definition of "god" to avoid a refutation, usually makes "god" a nonsensical word. This is another thing.

Last edited by David Mo; 20th October 2018 at 11:12 PM.
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Old 20th October 2018, 11:02 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That seems a little more evangelistic than I would have expected of a scientist.

Hawking seems to claim that the universe and all of the laws that govern it are knowable. Yet at this point in time, we can't even argue that the universe is deterministic (if it were then consciousness and free will would be myths). Most of the equations that we have to describe the universe stem from quantum wave equations (equations of probability). That screams "we don't know".
Hawking's argument is supported by the current state of our knowledge. If you can explain the behaviour of certain particles with the laws of quantum mechanics, why do you need God hypothesis? A scientist introduces hypotheses when the situation requires it. What scientific situation requires God hypothesis?

In reality, the word "god" applied to cosmology is a void. It is an empty name to refer what we don't know. In history, many functions of God has been transferred to nature laws and the poor guy is getting put out of work. Therefore he becomes a haziness more and more.
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Old 20th October 2018, 11:07 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Because they are unobservable?
Are you assuming that there are absolutely unobservable facts, which cannot be deduced from other observable ones? If so, how do you know that one of these facts exists?
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Old 21st October 2018, 12:25 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
If you can explain the behaviour of certain particles with the laws of quantum mechanics, why do you need God hypothesis?
We don't.

OTOH we can't rule one out because the "laws" of quantum mechanics don't explain anything. The are just a set of wave equations that allow us to get a probability distribution regarding the position and momentum of particles. They don't identify any mechanism that associated with said particles.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Are you assuming that there are absolutely unobservable facts, which cannot be deduced from other observable ones? If so, how do you know that one of these facts exists?
We know that subatomic particles are composed of something (because they exist) but we are limited in what we can determine regarding their composition because we don't have anything small enough to do so.
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Old 21st October 2018, 01:51 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
We don't.

OTOH we can't rule one out because the "laws" of quantum mechanics don't explain anything. The are just a set of wave equations that allow us to get a probability distribution regarding the position and momentum of particles. They don't identify any mechanism that associated with said particles.


We know that subatomic particles are composed of something (because they exist) but we are limited in what we can determine regarding their composition because we don't have anything small enough to do so.
It seems that we have a different concept of “law” and “explanation”. See the Encyclopedia Britannica “The laws of quantum mechanics”:

Quote:
Compton sent a beam of X-rays through a target material and observed that a small part of the beam was deflected off to the sides at various angles. He found that the scattered X-rays had longer wavelengths than the original beam; the change could be explained only by assuming that the X-rays scattered from the electrons in the target as if the X-rays were particles with discrete amounts of energy and momentum. When X-rays are scattered, their momentum is partially transferred to the electrons. The recoil electron takes some energy from an X-ray, and as a result the X-ray frequency is shifted. Both the discrete amount of momentum and the frequency shift of the light scattering are completely at variance with classical electromagnetic theory, but they are explained by Einstein’s quantum formula.
The idea that existence implies to be a compound is not scientific. A subatomic particle may be a compound or may be not. The idea that there is something backing the empirical reality is philosophical, not scientific. Even if we accept this we don’t need to postulate a metaphysical reality. Even if we accept that this metaphysical reality exist we don’t need to accept that this thing-in-itself is knowable. That is to say, that God is still a superfluous hypothesis.
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Old 21st October 2018, 02:04 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That seems a little more evangelistic than I would have expected of a scientist.

Hawking seems to claim that the universe and all of the laws that govern it are knowable. Yet at this point in time, we can't even argue that the universe is deterministic (if it were then consciousness and free will would be myths). Most of the equations that we have to describe the universe stem from quantum wave equations (equations of probability). That screams "we don't know".
The universe not being deterministic doesn't mean we can't/don't know how it works.
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Old 21st October 2018, 02:05 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
It seems that we have a different concept of “law” and “explanation”. See the Encyclopedia Britannica “The laws of quantum mechanics”:
And you think that little excerpt explains the meaning of life, the universe and everything?
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Old 21st October 2018, 02:09 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The universe not being deterministic doesn't mean we can't/don't know how it works.
Maybe, maybe not. But not knowing if the universe is deterministic is a serious handicap to knowing how the universe works.
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Old 21st October 2018, 02:11 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Maybe, maybe not. But not knowing if the universe is deterministic is a serious handicap to knowing how the universe works.
No it isn't.
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Old 21st October 2018, 02:38 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
And you think that little excerpt explains the meaning of life, the universe and everything?
No. My interest was more modest. I just wanted to start a clarification on the meaning of "law" and "explanation".


I don't think the meaning of the universe is a scientific problem. And I don't think there's any explanation of what the meaning of the universe is. What's more, I think it's an unsolvable question (ill-considered) and we're not going to find it by giving it an arbitrary name, be it Odin or Huitzilopotxli.

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Old 21st October 2018, 02:56 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Really. Tell us what I was thinking:

Tick tock

Begging the question.
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Old 21st October 2018, 03:15 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No it isn't.


Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
No. My interest was more modest. I just wanted to start a clarification on the meaning of "law" and "explanation".
You don't clarify something by obfuscating it. Having a handful of formulas that allow us to predict some behaviours in the universe is a long way from knowing all about it - let alone proving a negative.
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Old 21st October 2018, 03:35 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post



.
What's that Hitxhen quote? Something like that which is asserted without evidence can be refuted without evidence.

If you want to claim that reality not being deterministic means we can never understand it you really do need to you know *support* that claim.
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