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Old 6th December 2018, 08:22 AM   #641
3point14
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
What about the millions of people across Europe affected adversely by the TPD? Vaping did more to curb smoking prevalence across Europe than anything else has to date. Smoking prevalence in the UK has hovered around about 20% for many years. These figures from 2016 show that smoking prevalence has dropped to 15% while vaping now accounts for 5%.

NRT that's pushed by the pharma companies doesn't work very well, but they make lots of money selling it anyway. Smoking cessation products account for 2bn in annual sales.

My argument about this isn't about me. It's about helping smokers quit smoking either by switching to vaping before stopping, or just switching to vaping as a long term alternative.

Smoking is the root cause of something like 700,000 deaths annualy in the EU. We should have EU legislation that supports THR (Tobacco Harm Reduction) as much as possible. We should be able, for example, to buy Snus. Which is a Swedish smokeless tobacco. You can't. It's banned by a different EU directive everywhere except Sweden. (Sweden has a smoking rate of 5% compared to 15-20% for the rest of Europe)

If we had smoking laws in Europe like they do in Sweden it would save us all boatloads of money that the NHS spends on smoking related diseases and would allow more people to live longer.

But we can't have that, because pharma lobbyists.
The pharma lobbyists are in Brussels because that's where the legislation happens.

If the UK wasn't in the EU, you think the smoking companies would not send lobbyist to Westminster? Do you think that UK politicians are any less susceptible to lobbying than EU ones?


All you're doing is moving the problem and making the country poorer by doing so.

If you think lobbyists are simply an EU problem then you're somewhat misinformed.


This is quite a good example of why Brexit happened (well, that and the illegal activity and overspending), there's an uncritical acceptance that it's all Europe's fault.

Lobbying is a global problem. It certainly happens in the UK. Somehow, however, the blame for the problems caused by lobbying have been assigned a European origin, hence the above.



It really has been an excellent, what one might call 'character assassination' that the moral less British press have done on Europe.

And people with otherwise good critical thinking skills have swallowed it hook, line and sinker due to 40 years of unchallenged ********.
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Last edited by 3point14; 6th December 2018 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 6th December 2018, 08:51 AM   #642
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
So says someone living in a land so awash with political bribery that one can float coast-to-coast on a sea of cash. Citizens United: OMG, hang me from the tree of Liberty, too g-damn embarrassing.

***

Wondering out loud: Couldn't the Withdrawal Agreement go forward without the backstop and political agreements? That is, just the so-called withdrawal arrangements (WAs)? I understand there are quite a number of sticky items that really do need to be well-managed under deal or no-deal Brexit, and that these are spelled out in the WAs, such as what happens in pending contracts, court cases, etc., as well as the future of EU and UK citizens in each other's territories.

Or would the WAs kick in automatically even if there is a "no-deal" Brexit?
Citizens United did not go far enough.
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Old 6th December 2018, 09:00 AM   #643
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Sure, there will be plenty of space for 1 million Scots Leavers in England after 15 million English Remainers move to Scotland.
Joking aside, due to circumstances beyond our control the wife and I are going to sell up and move Northwards, I'm arguing for the Scottish side of the border because of Brexit and it's likely long term consequences.
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Old 6th December 2018, 09:13 AM   #644
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Joking aside, due to circumstances beyond our control the wife and I are going to sell up and move Northwards, I'm arguing for the Scottish side of the border because of Brexit and it's likely long term consequences.
And, joking sort-of aside, in the longer term my kids will probably qualify for future Scottish passports due to me.
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Old 6th December 2018, 09:24 AM   #645
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I always thought the EU was protectionist and only played by WTO rules with regard to Trump tariffs. That's why I don't fully understand all this talk from Brexiteers that we conduct all our trade on WTO rules with the EU after Brexit. There is a bit of waffle about this in this recent newspaper article:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-a8668311.html

Quote:
What the WTO does is lay down a baseline for trade between member states. However, no member trades on “WTO terms” alone. All 164 of them have negotiated better access to at least one market through some kind of bilateral agreement in addition to their WTO relationship.
This is because the WTO does not ensure the removal of all barriers to trade. Lord Lilley seems to give the impression he doesn’t understand this.

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 6th December 2018 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 6th December 2018, 09:58 AM   #646
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I always thought the EU was protectionist and only played by WTO rules with regard to Trump tariffs. That's why I don't fully understand all this talk from Brexiteers that we conduct all our trade on WTO rules with the EU after Brexit. There is a bit of waffle about this in this recent newspaper article:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-a8668311.html
Major world powers already have laundry lists of "disputes" to bring up and hamstring the UK in arbitration for decades. If Brexiteers thought Brussels was litigious, deliberative, and arcane, they've got a rude awakening coming.
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Old 6th December 2018, 09:59 AM   #647
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
So says someone living in a land so awash with political bribery that one can float coast-to-coast on a sea of cash. Citizens United: OMG, hang me from the tree of Liberty, too g-damn embarrassing.

***

Wondering out loud: Couldn't the Withdrawal Agreement go forward without the backstop and political agreements? That is, just the so-called withdrawal arrangements (WAs)? I understand there are quite a number of sticky items that really do need to be well-managed under deal or no-deal Brexit, and that these are spelled out in the WAs, such as what happens in pending contracts, court cases, etc., as well as the future of EU and UK citizens in each other's territories.

Or would the WAs kick in automatically even if there is a "no-deal" Brexit?
No the WA can't go ahead without the backstop because the backstop is how the problems with the UK withdrawal are resolved. Without the backstop there would need to be a border in Ireland and neither side want that.

And quite frankly if we can't come up with solutions to these issues we have no business withdrawing from anything until we can.
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Old 6th December 2018, 10:01 AM   #648
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As I posted before even LeaveHQ said that trading on WTO terms would be bad
Quote:
One can say, unequivocally, that the UK could not survive as a trading nation by relying on the WTO Option. It would be an unmitigated disaster, and no responsible government should allow it. The option should be rejected.
http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blo...s9eTz74nTWYNpU
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Old 6th December 2018, 11:29 AM   #649
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
As I posted before even LeaveHQ said that trading on WTO terms would be bad


http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blo...s9eTz74nTWYNpU
Have WTO terms even been agreed upon?
Last I checked they had been submitted but several countries objected...
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Old 6th December 2018, 12:09 PM   #650
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Originally Posted by The Moog View Post
Have WTO terms even been agreed upon?
Last I checked they had been submitted but several countries objected...
Indeed. Even the very bad option of the WTO that LeaveHQ acknowledge as a catastrophe is something we will have to work to achieve. We could be worse off than even that.
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Old 6th December 2018, 12:17 PM   #651
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post

Cite?
The Daily Mail was deprecated in the 2017 RfC. There is consensus that the Daily Mail (including its online version, MailOnline) is generally unreliable, and its use as a reference is generally prohibited, especially when other more reliable sources exist.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki...ennial_sources
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Old 6th December 2018, 12:22 PM   #652
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
Throwing more MEPs at the problem wouldn't make sense.

I got very interested in the EU back when the TPD was proposed as I ran a business that was directly affected by the proposed directive.

I campaigned against it long and hard along with many of my colleagues. It got passed. Only they used political dirty tricks to push it through. Which got me to wondering what other EU rules were also passed using such tactics, so I looked a lot closer and didn't like what I saw.

e.g. Lobbying. there are an estimated 25000 lobbyists in the EU corridors of power it's estimated they spend a combined 1.5bn euros a year on their lobbying.

It was pharma lobbyists that pushed the TPD through because they wanted to make a lot more money from ineffective and potentially harmful stop smoking treatments, and to control the vaping industry. After it got passed the barriers to entry for that market are now enormous, the innovation in it has been stifled and a lot of the smaller players, myself included, are no longer in business.

That just benefits big corporations. We, the people, elect our representatives and they get sweet talked by lobbyists and line their own pockets at the expense of the majority. That's what I am talking about when I call the EU an undemocratic gravy train. That is what needs changing.

If instead of the TPD that we have now MEPs had been allowed to properly review the science and the evidence, then we could have had reasonable proportional regulations that protected the consumers and also were attainable by small/medium businesses. There'd be more choice and more competition so the end consumer would pay less.
and

Yes it was terrible that the evil EU forced manufacturers to actually test their products and truthfully list the ingredients.

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Old 6th December 2018, 12:23 PM   #653
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
The Daily Mail was deprecated in the 2017 RfC. There is consensus that the Daily Mail (including its online version, MailOnline) is generally unreliable, and its use as a reference is generally prohibited, especially when other more reliable sources exist.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki...ennial_sources
I think he was just correcting my spelling...
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Old 6th December 2018, 12:24 PM   #654
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
My ref would be a STV

Do you want

1 May's deal
2 Leave without a deal
3 Remain.

Put number 1 by your first choice and 2 by your second choice.
In the event that no choice gains 50 % of the vote, the votes for the option with the fewest votes will be reallocated where a second preference is given.

For 'leave with out a deal' votors 'preference' means things you like. 50% means half.
That could create a terrible precedent for using STV voting in elections.
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Old 6th December 2018, 12:28 PM   #655
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think he was just correcting my spelling...
I wondered...
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 6th December 2018, 12:52 PM   #656
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The man's a ****. Easy.

(the starred out word above is the worst one you can think of, just fyi. It's a word I use about once a year)
"Tory"?
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Old 6th December 2018, 12:52 PM   #657
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Brexit: ITV scraps plans for TV debate between leaders

ITV has scrapped its plans to hold a Brexit debate between Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn this Sunday.

The channel said it had invited both parties to appear on the programme two days ahead of the meaningful vote on Mrs May's withdrawal agreement.

But an ITV spokeswoman confirmed on Thursday that it would "not go ahead".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46476324
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Old 6th December 2018, 01:02 PM   #658
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Since it appears that it's just England who wants to leave, couldn't you put the hard border between England and the rest of the UK?
Wales also voted to Leave, but then specific areas of England voted Remain (e.g. London, most major cities, etc.).
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Old 6th December 2018, 01:17 PM   #659
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
The Daily Mail was deprecated in the 2017 RfC. There is consensus that the Daily Mail (including its online version, MailOnline) is generally unreliable, and its use as a reference is generally prohibited, especially when other more reliable sources exist.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki...ennial_sources
Of course the problem is that some editors try to game the system and insist that no cite to the Mail whatsoever is valid, even though there are stated exemptions, e.g. when citing a controversial Mail article.
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:09 PM   #660
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
The article makes no suggestion that it has to be that. The article, rather, points out that occupants of the current registered address of the company denied that they were in any way associated with it, indicating that the current registered address is fraudulent. It also points out that the publicly available accounts of the organisation are not, in fact, publicly available, meaning thatthe company is in violation of the terms by which it qualifies for limited disclosure exemption. But I'm sure you could read all that perfectly clearly too.

Dave

It is quite normal - where there is a firm offering multiple company directorships - for there to be literally dozens of companies sharing the same 'registered address'.
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:12 PM   #661
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is quite normal - where there is a firm offering multiple company directorships - for there to be literally dozens of companies sharing the same 'registered address'.
Small potatoes, here in the US we have thousands of corperations sharing one PO box.

THis house has 200,000

https://freebeacon.com/issues/delawa...lary-clintons/
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:17 PM   #662
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
I'll keep this brief as this isn't the topic of the thread but basically:

Article 20 (the bit that pertains to vaping) was tacked onto the TPD and was drafted in a rushed process called trilogue . this is basically a behind closed doors series of meeting with EU lawyers and some other interested parties, to hammer out the text of directives.

The people in the meetings for Article 20 of the TPD didn't include any pro-vaping people or anyone representing the lots of credible scientific research that was being done at the time. IIRC we had something like 7 or 8 peer reviewed papers from proper scientific journals detailing exactly how and why the directive was bad all of which was hand waved away by the trilogue committee and wasn't properly debated prior to the vote.
They drafted a dogs dinner of a directive as a result of lack of expertise and lack of consultation.

Here is a blog from the time from Clive Bates. Clive is a former director of ASH (Action on Smoking and Health) and has also worked as a civil servant for the cabinet office and Environment Agency, so in short he knows what he's talking about.



To top all that off the President of the European Parliament at the time Martin Schulz refused initially to allow split and separate voting for different aspects of the TPD (which was and is, in most part, a good directive) changing his mind an hour before the vote took place (Feb 26th 2014) then he refused to allow more time for stakeholders to make their case against article 18A (which later became Article 20) so the whole thing got passed in a very rushed vote. (this is the political dirty trick I am referring to)

MEP Martin Callanan (now Lord Callanan) stood up in the EP immediately before the vote to try to make the case for having more time to review Article18A and was shut down in short order.


I am not saying it's undemocratic because I didn't get my way, I am saying it's undemocratic because directives that effect millions of Europeans should at least be drafted by people who have expertise on the subject at hand and then properly debated before being voted on.

It turns out that many EU directives are drafted using trilogue, which seems to me to be a very flawed process.

EU directives, by and large, reflect the desires of corporate lobbyists and not what would actually be best for the people.

I'll happily go into more depth if you are interested on the TPD, but not in this thread. The full text of the TPD is here.
There are sites that discuss EU lobbying but, I agree with you that the EU should be more transparent.

https://www.integritywatch.eu/lobbyist.html
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:24 PM   #663
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is quite normal - where there is a firm offering multiple company directorships - for there to be literally dozens of companies sharing the same 'registered address'.
In fact if you google the address there are a lot of companies using that address. One is a Manx ISP I've dealt with and others. And the place isn't so shabby as the BBC make it seem speaking as a regular visitor to Douglas.
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Old 6th December 2018, 04:58 PM   #664
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is quite normal - where there is a firm offering multiple company directorships - for there to be literally dozens of companies sharing the same 'registered address'.
Yes, I'm well aware of that. What is not normal is for the occupants of the registered address to make it clear that they have no knowledge whatsoever of the firm that is supposedly registered there.

Dave
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Old 6th December 2018, 06:15 PM   #665
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
and

Yes it was terrible that the evil EU forced manufacturers to actually test their products and truthfully list the ingredients.
It was already a legal requirement that companies list their ingredients.

I, like most of the small vaping guys *did * get my liquids tested.

The vaping industry circa 2016 *wanted* there to be testing and standards.

What should have happened is that the TPD should have been passed without any reference to vaping stuff, what with vaping products not containing any tobacco and it being the *tobacco products* directive, and then there should have been a whole new separate directive to put in place reasonable testing and standards and regulations for vaping.

Testing and standards that reflected the peer reviewed science that would have protected the public and offered consumers choice and competition.
The best outcome for the average person would have been testing and standards that were attainable for an average small/medium business.

Instead they forced GMP (good manufacturing practice) onto everyone, which sounds good, but is actually pharmaceutical grade manufacturing practices, which cost upwards of 20k to implement. per item.

Instead of forcing just the cowboys out of business it forced most of the small/medium businesses out and handed control of the vaping market over to big business.

I took the lessons I learned from all of that and started up a new business selling fudge as it happens, but the TPD means that the NHS nowadays has a much higher bill to pay for the times that it recommends vaping as an alternative to smoking because most of the people left in the vaping market are pharma/tobacco companies who pass the extra costs onto the end user.

I can talk about the TPD at length, for hours. It's an appalling piece of legislation that should never have been passed. But it was, because lobbyists.

And yes I am well aware that there are lobbyists in the UK, but by and large lobbying in the UK isn't as bad as that in the EU and we are still much better off than the US in that regard.

Also it's easier to campaign against and repeal country specific legislation, rather than EU wide legislation.
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Old 6th December 2018, 06:43 PM   #666
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
And yet isn't Sweden in the EU?
Yes. Yes it is.

You would think that as smoking is so detrimental to public health and because it drains so much of taxpayers money from the public purse via treatments for smoking related diseases that anything that reduced smoking prevalence would be welcomed.

5% (five percent!) of adult Swedes smoke. Lots more of them use Snus.

We could reduce smoking prevalence from our present numbers of 15-20% to probably at least 10% if Snus was available Europe wide.

Sweden had to fight to be able to sell it at all, why can't smokers have the option to use Snus in the UK or in France or in Germany etc?

How much money would the NHS save if it had 1/3rd less of patients to treat with smoking related diseases?

What's the impact of those extra patients on waiting list times?

Is all of that really worth protecting the profits and CEO bonuses of pharma companies for? I don't think it is.
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Old 6th December 2018, 06:51 PM   #667
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
How much money would the NHS save if it had 1/3rd less of patients to treat with smoking related diseases?
Next bus slogan?

Of course, like the last one, the problem here is that you have to demonstrate that Brexit will result in the outcome you want.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 6th December 2018, 07:09 PM   #668
Ambrosia
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Next bus slogan?

Of course, like the last one, the problem here is that you have to demonstrate that Brexit will result in the outcome you want.
Brexit won't result in the outcome that I want.

I voted for Brexit as a protest vote. Lots of the Brexit campaign made me mad, including the bus slogan and just about everything Nigel Farage ever said and the fact that that I was voting the same was as the BNP and their ilk.

If I could go back and do things over I'd probably not have voted at all, but, ultimately my one single vote made sod all difference to the outcome.

Again, I am for European union, but against the EU.

I want open borders and free movement of goods and people.
I want close co-operation Europe wide for security.

I want the UK to have a little more say over the laws that govern it's people
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Old 6th December 2018, 08:08 PM   #669
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
I voted for Brexit as a protest vote. Lots of the Brexit campaign made me mad, including the bus slogan and just about everything Nigel Farage ever said and the fact that that I was voting the same was as the BNP and their ilk.

If I could go back and do things over I'd probably not have voted at all, but, ultimately my one single vote made sod all difference to the outcome.


Are you suggesting that your vote was unique, and that nobody else voted for BREXIT as a protest vote? It would have not taken too many voters to do what you did to change the result. Less than 2% would have led to a vote so close either way that nobody could be standing up and saying that "this is the will of the British people"



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Old 6th December 2018, 08:19 PM   #670
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
Are you suggesting that your vote was unique, and that nobody else voted for BREXIT as a protest vote? It would have not taken too many voters to do what you did to change the result. Less than 2% would have led to a vote so close either way that nobody could be standing up and saying that "this is the will of the British people"



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Wouldn't it cancel out with remain protest votes?
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Old 6th December 2018, 08:41 PM   #671
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Wouldn't it cancel out with remain protest votes?

You know that there were any remain protest votes from people who wanted to leave?


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Old 6th December 2018, 10:47 PM   #672
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
You know that there were any remain protest votes from people who wanted to leave?


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Your signature seems appropriate for the comment that you were replying to.
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:08 AM   #673
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
Yes. Yes it is.

You would think that as smoking is so detrimental to public health and because it drains so much of taxpayers money from the public purse via treatments for smoking related diseases that anything that reduced smoking prevalence would be welcomed.

5% (five percent!) of adult Swedes smoke. Lots more of them use Snus.

We could reduce smoking prevalence from our present numbers of 15-20% to probably at least 10% if Snus was available Europe wide.

Sweden had to fight to be able to sell it at all, why can't smokers have the option to use Snus in the UK or in France or in Germany etc?

How much money would the NHS save if it had 1/3rd less of patients to treat with smoking related diseases?

What's the impact of those extra patients on waiting list times?

Is all of that really worth protecting the profits and CEO bonuses of pharma companies for? I don't think it is.
Er that would be because the UK government, the French government etc. have decided to regulate their citizenship.
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:28 AM   #674
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
I voted for Brexit as a protest vote. Lots of the Brexit campaign made me mad, including the bus slogan and just about everything Nigel Farage ever said and the fact that that I was voting the same was as the BNP and their ilk.

If I could go back and do things over I'd probably not have voted at all, but, ultimately my one single vote made sod all difference to the outcome.
I would content that all those who voted Leave for similarly capricious reasons were very much part of making the difference.

Quote:
I want the UK to have a little more say over the laws that govern it's people
Ah, the old UK exceptionalism argument again! The UK already had control over most of its laws. In the case of EU-mandated regulation, it had as much say as any other EU country in their formulation.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 7th December 2018 at 01:31 AM.
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:30 AM   #675
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Wouldn't it cancel out with remain protest votes?
How would that even work?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:32 AM   #676
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Wouldn't it cancel out with remain protest votes?
I wouldn't say there were none, but there was far less evidence of them than vice versa.
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:54 AM   #677
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Wouldn't it cancel out with remain protest votes?
Protest against what?
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Old 7th December 2018, 01:57 AM   #678
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
Yes. Yes it is.

You would think that as smoking is so detrimental to public health and because it drains so much of taxpayers money from the public purse via treatments for smoking related diseases that anything that reduced smoking prevalence would be welcomed.

5% (five percent!) of adult Swedes smoke. Lots more of them use Snus.

We could reduce smoking prevalence from our present numbers of 15-20% to probably at least 10% if Snus was available Europe wide.

Sweden had to fight to be able to sell it at all, why can't smokers have the option to use Snus in the UK or in France or in Germany etc?

How much money would the NHS save if it had 1/3rd less of patients to treat with smoking related diseases?

What's the impact of those extra patients on waiting list times?

Is all of that really worth protecting the profits and CEO bonuses of pharma companies for? I don't think it is.
So you think the EU is a bad thing and the UK would make better laws on its own because another EU country made better laws for itself and the UK didn't? I'm not sure I follow.
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Old 7th December 2018, 02:09 AM   #679
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
So you think the EU is a bad thing and the UK would make better laws on its own because another EU country made better laws for itself and the UK didn't? I'm not sure I follow.
No, Ambrosia is like most people and is taking a selfish attitude. Vaping is a common subject for Ambrosia. I suspect they are involved in the industry and wants to pedal more product and sees leaving the EU as a means to that.
Same as James, build my cleaners in Malaysia, Dyson and Arron, offshore companies, Banks. The unemployed want rid of foreigners who 'steal' their jobs. Middle class remainers pay enough for their quinoa, they don't want to pay import duties on top, and they certainly don't want to pay the inevitable higher taxes coming mainly their way when the economy tanks.
Everyone is selfish, but at least the remain side has the expert consensus that it better for the economy and therefore better for UK citizens as a whole. Leave is purely selfish.
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Old 7th December 2018, 02:21 AM   #680
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Did the UK oppose the modifications to the TPD?
Since the UK has not fought to allow Snus in the country, which should be possible since Sweden succeeded, then what makes anyone think a UK not in the EU would make a blind bit of difference?

This is the point.
Our governments have used the EU as a shield for legislation they appear to be quite happy with. As soon as you scratch the surface you find that they didn't actually put up a fight.
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