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Old 17th November 2018, 05:47 PM   #81
JoeMorgue
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So Great Britain leaves the EU, the EU tells Great Britain to do something, Great Britain says "Make me."

Great Britain is not a little child that wants to run away from home but can't because Mommy won't let him cross he street.

"The EU cannot make countries NOT IN THE FLIPPIN EU do things" is not a discussion.
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Old 17th November 2018, 05:47 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
To avoid that, set up a normal policed and secured international border between NI and RoI. Then walk away from the EU. No problem.
Ireland might object to that one. Quite vigorously.
It would solve the problem though.

Last edited by The Moog; 17th November 2018 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 17th November 2018, 05:47 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There isn't a group that can enforce the contract if one walks.
The UK has drafted the 'contract' [agreement] but the row is over whether to sign it as it is. Once signed, the UK will be locked in.

It would be grossly irresponsible to just 'walk'. It has a parliament, a monarchy and the armed orces.

There will be a peasants revolt by starving angry millions as the banks shut their doors and the shelves in the shops are emptied in the ensuing pandemonium.

The UK will be blockaded until it honours its legal liabilities.

Food manufacturers have started stockpiling. Maybe it is time for ordinary Brits to do the same. Just sayin'.
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Old 17th November 2018, 05:50 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
To avoid that, set up a normal policed and secured international border between NI and RoI. Then walk away from the EU. No problem.
No. It has had enough of the 'troubles'. No return to that.
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Old 17th November 2018, 05:51 PM   #85
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Are Scotland and Northern Ireland still threatening to leave the UK if the UK leaves the EU?
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Old 17th November 2018, 05:51 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Are Scotland and Northern Ireland still threatening to leave the UK if the UK leaves the EU?
A lot of Scots would like to do so... With NI its complicated.

Last edited by The Moog; 17th November 2018 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 17th November 2018, 05:59 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Really? So when Adobe or Prime (or insert your own subscription service) ask you to sign up for a rolling monthly subscription (usually for twelve months) would you expect to be locked in indefinitely?

Or would you avoid such a commitment like the plague?

This is what MP's are complaining about: the terms and conditions.
If only this disaster had been foreseen!

There is no way to square the circle.

As the philosopher Mick Jagger once said you can’t always get what you want!
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Old 17th November 2018, 06:00 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Are Scotland and Northern Ireland still threatening to leave the UK if the UK leaves the EU?
Yes and no depending on who you talk to. That’s been true in NI for a long time before Brexit though.
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Old 17th November 2018, 06:03 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Why? If the UK has to follow its laws and regulations, of course it must expect to have a say in the passing and formulating of legislation.
It had a say in the passing and formulating of legislation when the UK was a member, twas kinda the point.

The UK apparently is leaving, like...not being a member anymore?
You don't get to help make the rules in that situation, why would you think you do?
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Old 17th November 2018, 07:07 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Why? If the UK has to follow its laws and regulations, of course it must expect to have a say in the passing and formulating of legislation.
Then it's high time that the UK tempers it's expectations.
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Old 17th November 2018, 07:19 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He also said, 'Take me to the station, and put me on a train. I have no expectation to pass through here again.'
Too bad that when the government was fobbing everyone off with platitudes such as “Brexit means Brexit”, the leavers were too busy laughing at the remoaners instead of taking seriously their points that Brexit could mean many different things, and that the leavers couldn’t possibly have known what they were voting for.
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Old 17th November 2018, 07:20 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But that isn't a good reason. You can give non member votes.

And by "you" I mean any organisation. There isn't a magical force compelling against it.
In this case it'd be that the UK is getting a better position that other, less childish non-member countries, would be getting.

At this point the complaint about not having votes in the EU parliament is probably from people who've only just learned that they had representation there.
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Old 18th November 2018, 12:46 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Why? If the UK has to follow its laws and regulations, of course it must expect to have a say in the passing and formulating of legislation.
No. Brexit means Brexit.

The transition period provided by the draft agreement and during which the UK has to follow th EU rules is there only to facilitate the departure of the UK. No more no less.
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Old 18th November 2018, 12:47 AM   #94
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The thing is, once the UK leaves it doesn't HAVE to follow EU regulations any more.

But the EU will still insist on certain regulations on stuff that gets traded to the EU. So all the UK has to do is stop trading with the EU and all problems are solved.

Now admittedly, the EU is the UK's biggest trading partner, but that is something the Leave camp knew beforehand, and they promised that 'it will all go ok', so I'm sure they have a comprehensive plan to replace that trade with something much better.
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Old 18th November 2018, 02:14 AM   #95
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A neighbour posted on facebook an interview on Sky news where an academic pointed out that from the start it was obvious to many (including many in this thread) there were two sorts of Brexit. The Norway/Switzerland approach (or "pointless Brexit") or the highly damaging Brexit.
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Old 18th November 2018, 02:33 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
No. Brexit means Brexit.

The transition period provided by the draft agreement and during which the UK has to follow th EU rules is there only to facilitate the departure of the UK. No more no less.
This does seem to keep getting missed. May hasn't negotiated our final treaty with the EU. The "deal" is how we will leave the EU.
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Old 18th November 2018, 02:40 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
This does seem to keep getting missed. May hasn't negotiated our final treaty with the EU. The "deal" is how we will leave the EU.
I am fully convinced that by the time we have negotiated a new deal, the technology will be in place to deal with the Irish border Issues, It won't matter if you cross on your ihoverboard or fusion powered flying icar, the quantum scanners will detect any goods and deduct the credits from your ibank.
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Old 18th November 2018, 03:02 AM   #98
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Mod WarningA large number of off topic posts have been moved to AAH.
The birthplace of the Manchester Arena bomber, or philosophical side discussions on the meaning of 'leave' (as opposed to reality-based discussions of the implications of leaving), are not for this thread.
Posted By:zooterkin
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Old 18th November 2018, 03:05 AM   #99
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Jacob Rees-Mogg has moved his Somerset Asset Management company to Ireland to keep it in the EU. That looks like hypocrisy to me by a bunch of millionaire Brexit politicians. The famous old Avon Rubber company in Wiltshire, which is now American owned, is now moving to somewhere like Slovakia. It's not good news even though the public and House of Commons is out of touch with reality and they can only think of cutting public spending and financial and media firms in London.
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Old 18th November 2018, 04:48 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So Great Britain leaves the EU, the EU tells Great Britain to do something, Great Britain says "Make me."

Great Britain is not a little child that wants to run away from home but can't because Mommy won't let him cross he street.

"The EU cannot make countries NOT IN THE FLIPPIN EU do things" is not a discussion.
They can't MAKE you do something, but they can make your life very difficult if you don't. Especially when you are hugely reliant on them for things like food, medicine, and transportation.

I mean it's fine to be all cowboy about it, but cowboys don't generally have to explain to millions of people why they aren't going to get their insulin, do they?
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Old 18th November 2018, 06:08 AM   #101
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In addition, they are all things agreed to previously.

It doesn't make it any easier to make agreements and treaties if you've broken previous ones.
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Old 18th November 2018, 06:10 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
They can't MAKE you do something, but they can make your life very difficult if you don't. Especially when you are hugely reliant on them for things like food, medicine, and transportation.

I mean it's fine to be all cowboy about it, but cowboys don't generally have to explain to millions of people why they aren't going to get their insulin, do they?
Oh, we don't have to worry about that, they are doubling the stocks of insulin, so the PM won't run out.

Of course, what most people hearing this story don't seem to realise is that storing 16 weeks' supply instead of 8 isn't just a formality, it requires planning, more storage facilities, and costs real money. This will apply to everything that is imported currently, because delays are likely due to the uncertainty, and inevitable extra processing delays even once the uncertainty ends.
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Old 18th November 2018, 06:23 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
In addition, they are all things agreed to previously.

It doesn't make it any easier to make agreements and treaties if you've broken previous ones.
And honestly in the big scheme of things £40bn is peanuts in comparison to what is being discussed so if it buys you even a little goodwill then its a price worth paying.

It's 1.5% of annual GDP or thereabouts I think. You could probably lose more than that in even a week of transitional chaos from not having a deal.
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Old 18th November 2018, 06:52 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
They can't MAKE you do something, but they can make your life very difficult if you don't. Especially when you are hugely reliant on them for things like food, medicine, and transportation.

I mean it's fine to be all cowboy about it, but cowboys don't generally have to explain to millions of people why they aren't going to get their insulin, do they?
It's not even the case that the EU spitefully will makes things difficult... but in case the UK crashes out without a deal then it must be treated exactly the same as other WTO members with whom the EU doesn't have deals. Else it would unfairly discriminate and would be forced to extend the same preferential treatment to all those countries.

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Old 18th November 2018, 06:54 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No. It has had enough of the 'troubles'. No return to that.
Then the UK requires to cooperate with the EU, of which the Republic of Ireland is, and intends to remain, a member; because the Border in Ireland is the common property of both polities: the EU, including RoI, and the UK, including NI.
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Old 18th November 2018, 09:10 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Why? If the UK has to follow its laws and regulations, of course it must expect to have a say in the passing and formulating of legislation.
No. That privilege is reserved for EU members.
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Old 18th November 2018, 09:13 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Are Scotland and Northern Ireland still threatening to leave the UK if the UK leaves the EU?
Yep.
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Old 18th November 2018, 11:58 AM   #108
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Why bother with all this 'deals' and 'treaties' garbage? Why don't we go full-on hermit like North Korea? If it's good enough for Kim Jong-un, it's good enough for Theresa May.
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Old 18th November 2018, 12:19 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Why bother with all this 'deals' and 'treaties' garbage? Why don't we go full-on hermit like North Korea? If it's good enough for Kim Jong-un, it's good enough for Theresa May.
Shades of '1990', remember Edward Woodward?
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Old 18th November 2018, 12:19 PM   #110
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Good interview with Melvyn Bragg

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk...99-broadcaster

Quote:
On the "cult" of Brexit:

“These bunch of squirearchal, hedge funding, over-privileged people who think it’s going to be okay – it’s going to be okay for them. They’re not going to suffer – not a bit of it. They don’t offer any evidence now. It’s ceased to be a programme or a process, it’s a cult. It’s a bit like the Moonies. They just believe it because they believe because they believe it. Because they are who they are, they think them believing it is significant. No, it isn’t.”
ETA:

Quote:
And on immigration fears:

“I was canvassing in Carlisle for the Labour party – you couldn’t believe it really – they were worried about immigration. Nearly ninety per cent of the people in Carlisle had been born in and around Carlisle… but ‘oh, this terrible threat of immigration!’”
He (rightly) reserves his most cutting criticism for Cameron.
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Old 18th November 2018, 01:25 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
The thing is, once the UK leaves it doesn't HAVE to follow EU regulations any more.
Yes it does, if they are in the Withdrawal Agreement.

There is IIUC a lengthy section on following EU State Aid rules.
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Old 18th November 2018, 01:35 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Yes it does, if they are in the Withdrawal Agreement.

There is IIUC a lengthy section on following EU State Aid rules.
Don't agree to a withdrawal agreement then. Just crash out with no deal.
It will be fine.
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Old 18th November 2018, 01:42 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by The Moog View Post
Don't agree to a withdrawal agreement then. Just crash out with no deal.
It will be fine.
Remove any sarcasm, and you could actually be David Davis.
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Old 18th November 2018, 01:46 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Remove any sarcasm, and you could actually be David Davis.
Make me Brexit minister, I could do just as good a job.
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Old 18th November 2018, 01:48 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by The Moog View Post
Make me Brexit minister, I could do just as good a job.
The Downing Street cat could do just as good a job, so that's not saying much.
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Old 18th November 2018, 01:49 PM   #116
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Given how little the UK was in the EU when it was in the EU I can't imagine an UK that wasn't in the UK would be all that put off.
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Old 18th November 2018, 01:51 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Given how little the UK was in the EU when it was in the EU I can't imagine an UK that wasn't in the UK would be all that put off.

Eh?
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Old 18th November 2018, 02:19 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by The Moog View Post
Make me Brexit minister, I could do just as good a job.
Actually, thinking about Will o'the Wisp, and assuming that you actually are The Moog from that, then my only concern is that you'd be overqualified.

When did you learn that the Dover-Calais crossing was important for British trade?

If it was earlier than this month, you'd beat Dominic Raab.

And he was an improvement on David Davis.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 18th November 2018, 02:22 PM   #119
Strawberry
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Actually, thinking about Will o'the Wisp, and assuming that you actually are The Moog from that, then my only concern is that you'd be overqualified.

When did you learn that the Dover-Calais crossing was important for British trade?

If it was earlier than this month, you'd beat Dominic Raab.

And he was an improvement on David Davis.
Davis wanted to do a trade deal with Czechoslavia and avoid an internal border with that part of the UK called Southern Ireland. Raab only just realised where France is.

Such is the quality of leadership these days.
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Old 18th November 2018, 02:28 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Davis wanted to do a trade deal with Czechoslavia and avoid an internal border with that part of the UK called Southern Ireland. Raab only just realised where France is.

Such is the quality of leadership these days.
Indeed, and The Moog was nice but didn't think.

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So definitely Cabinet minister material - although being nice is probably problematic for this government. But still a step up.
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http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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