[Continuation] Brexit: Now What? Part 6. Pick up sticks... - Page 3

JoeMorgue · 17th November 2018, 05:47 PM

So Great Britain leaves the EU, the EU tells Great Britain to do something, Great Britain says "Make me."

Great Britain is not a little child that wants to run away from home but can't because Mommy won't let him cross he street.

"The EU cannot make countries NOT IN THE FLIPPIN EU do things" is not a discussion.

The Moog · 17th November 2018, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Craig B

To avoid that, set up a normal policed and secured international border between NI and RoI. Then walk away from the EU. No problem.

Ireland might object to that one. Quite vigorously.
It would solve the problem though.

Vixen · 17th November 2018, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

There isn't a group that can enforce the contract if one walks.

The UK has drafted the 'contract' [agreement] but the row is over whether to sign it as it is. Once signed, the UK will be locked in.

It would be grossly irresponsible to just 'walk'. It has a parliament, a monarchy and the armed orces.

There will be a ~~peasants~~ revolt by starving angry millions as the banks shut their doors and the shelves in the shops are emptied in the ensuing pandemonium.

The UK will be blockaded until it honours its legal liabilities.

Food manufacturers have started stockpiling. Maybe it is time for ordinary Brits to do the same. Just sayin'.

Vixen · 17th November 2018, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by Craig B

To avoid that, set up a normal policed and secured international border between NI and RoI. Then walk away from the EU. No problem.

No. It has had enough of the 'troubles'. No return to that.

JoeMorgue · 17th November 2018, 05:51 PM

Are Scotland and Northern Ireland still threatening to leave the UK if the UK leaves the EU?

The Moog · 17th November 2018, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Are Scotland and Northern Ireland still threatening to leave the UK if the UK leaves the EU?

A lot of Scots would like to do so... With NI its complicated.

angrysoba · 17th November 2018, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Really? So when Adobe or Prime (or insert your own subscription service) ask you to sign up for a rolling monthly subscription (usually for twelve months) would you expect to be locked in indefinitely?

Or would you avoid such a commitment like the plague?

This is what MP's are complaining about: the terms and conditions.

If only this disaster had been foreseen!

There is no way to square the circle.

As the philosopher Mick Jagger once said you can’t always get what you want!

angrysoba · 17th November 2018, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Are Scotland and Northern Ireland still threatening to leave the UK if the UK leaves the EU?

Yes and no depending on who you talk to. That’s been true in NI for a long time before Brexit though.

p0lka · 17th November 2018, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Why? If the UK has to follow its laws and regulations, of course it must expect to have a say in the passing and formulating of legislation.

It had a say in the passing and formulating of legislation when the UK was a member, twas kinda the point.

The UK apparently is leaving, like...not being a member anymore?
You don't get to help make the rules in that situation, why would you think you do?

Amazer · 17th November 2018, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Why? If the UK has to follow its laws and regulations, of course it must expect to have a say in the passing and formulating of legislation.

Then it's high time that the UK tempers it's expectations.

angrysoba · 17th November 2018, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

He also said, 'Take me to the station, and put me on a train. I have no expectation to pass through here again.'

Too bad that when the government was fobbing everyone off with platitudes such as “Brexit means Brexit”, the leavers were too busy laughing at the remoaners instead of taking seriously their points that Brexit could mean many different things, and that the leavers couldn’t possibly have known what they were voting for.

Wildy · 17th November 2018, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

But that isn't a good reason. You can give non member votes.

And by "you" I mean any organisation. There isn't a magical force compelling against it.

In this case it'd be that the UK is getting a better position that other, less childish non-member countries, would be getting.

At this point the complaint about not having votes in the EU parliament is probably from people who've only just learned that they had representation there.

Degeneve · 18th November 2018, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Why? If the UK has to follow its laws and regulations, of course it must expect to have a say in the passing and formulating of legislation.

No. Brexit means Brexit.

The transition period provided by the draft agreement and during which the UK has to follow th EU rules is there only to facilitate the departure of the UK. No more no less.

Lukraak_Sisser · 18th November 2018, 12:47 AM

The thing is, once the UK leaves it doesn't HAVE to follow EU regulations any more.

But the EU will still insist on certain regulations on stuff that gets traded to the EU. So all the UK has to do is stop trading with the EU and all problems are solved.

Now admittedly, the EU is the UK's biggest trading partner, but that is something the Leave camp knew beforehand, and they promised that 'it will all go ok', so I'm sure they have a comprehensive plan to replace that trade with something much better.

jimbob · 18th November 2018, 02:14 AM

A neighbour posted on facebook an interview on Sky news where an academic pointed out that from the start it was obvious to many (including many in this thread) there were two sorts of Brexit. The Norway/Switzerland approach (or "pointless Brexit") or the highly damaging Brexit.

Darat · 18th November 2018, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by Degeneve

No. Brexit means Brexit.

The transition period provided by the draft agreement and during which the UK has to follow th EU rules is there only to facilitate the departure of the UK. No more no less.

This does seem to keep getting missed. May hasn't negotiated our final treaty with the EU. The "deal" is how we will leave the EU.

Lothian · 18th November 2018, 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

This does seem to keep getting missed. May hasn't negotiated our final treaty with the EU. The "deal" is how we will leave the EU.

I am fully convinced that by the time we have negotiated a new deal, the technology will be in place to deal with the Irish border Issues, It won't matter if you cross on your ihoverboard or fusion powered flying icar, the quantum scanners will detect any goods and deduct the credits from your ibank.

zooterkin · 18th November 2018, 03:02 AM

A large number of off topic posts have been moved to AAH.
The birthplace of the Manchester Arena bomber, or philosophical side discussions on the meaning of 'leave' (as opposed to reality-based discussions of the implications of leaving), are not for this thread.

Posted By:zooterkin

Henri McPhee · 18th November 2018, 03:05 AM

Jacob Rees-Mogg has moved his Somerset Asset Management company to Ireland to keep it in the EU. That looks like hypocrisy to me by a bunch of millionaire Brexit politicians. The famous old Avon Rubber company in Wiltshire, which is now American owned, is now moving to somewhere like Slovakia. It's not good news even though the public and House of Commons is out of touch with reality and they can only think of cutting public spending and financial and media firms in London.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 18th November 2018, 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

So Great Britain leaves the EU, the EU tells Great Britain to do something, Great Britain says "Make me."

Great Britain is not a little child that wants to run away from home but can't because Mommy won't let him cross he street.

"The EU cannot make countries NOT IN THE FLIPPIN EU do things" is not a discussion.

They can't MAKE you do something, but they can make your life very difficult if you don't. Especially when you are hugely reliant on them for things like food, medicine, and transportation.

I mean it's fine to be all cowboy about it, but cowboys don't generally have to explain to millions of people why they aren't going to get their insulin, do they?

fagin · 18th November 2018, 06:08 AM

In addition, they are all things agreed to previously.

It doesn't make it any easier to make agreements and treaties if you've broken previous ones.

zooterkin · 18th November 2018, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

They can't MAKE you do something, but they can make your life very difficult if you don't. Especially when you are hugely reliant on them for things like food, medicine, and transportation.

I mean it's fine to be all cowboy about it, but cowboys don't generally have to explain to millions of people why they aren't going to get their insulin, do they?

Oh, we don't have to worry about that, they are doubling the stocks of insulin, so the PM won't run out.

Of course, what most people hearing this story don't seem to realise is that storing 16 weeks' supply instead of 8 isn't just a formality, it requires planning, more storage facilities, and costs real money. This will apply to everything that is imported currently, because delays are likely due to the uncertainty, and inevitable extra processing delays even once the uncertainty ends.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 18th November 2018, 06:23 AM

Originally Posted by fagin

In addition, they are all things agreed to previously.

It doesn't make it any easier to make agreements and treaties if you've broken previous ones.

And honestly in the big scheme of things £40bn is peanuts in comparison to what is being discussed so if it buys you even a little goodwill then its a price worth paying.

It's 1.5% of annual GDP or thereabouts I think. You could probably lose more than that in even a week of transitional chaos from not having a deal.

Amazer · 18th November 2018, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

They can't MAKE you do something, but they can make your life very difficult if you don't. Especially when you are hugely reliant on them for things like food, medicine, and transportation.

I mean it's fine to be all cowboy about it, but cowboys don't generally have to explain to millions of people why they aren't going to get their insulin, do they?

It's not even the case that the EU spitefully will makes things difficult... but in case the UK crashes out without a deal then it must be treated exactly the same as other WTO members with whom the EU doesn't have deals. Else it would unfairly discriminate and would be forced to extend the same preferential treatment to all those countries.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk

Craig B · 18th November 2018, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

No. It has had enough of the 'troubles'. No return to that.

Then the UK requires to cooperate with the EU, of which the Republic of Ireland is, and intends to remain, a member; because the Border in Ireland is the common property of both polities: the EU, including RoI, and the UK, including NI.

catsmate · 18th November 2018, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Why? If the UK has to follow its laws and regulations, of course it must expect to have a say in the passing and formulating of legislation.

No. That privilege is reserved for EU members.

catsmate · 18th November 2018, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Are Scotland and Northern Ireland still threatening to leave the UK if the UK leaves the EU?

Yep.

Ian Osborne · 18th November 2018, 11:58 AM

Why bother with all this 'deals' and 'treaties' garbage? Why don't we go full-on hermit like North Korea? If it's good enough for Kim Jong-un, it's good enough for Theresa May.

catsmate · 18th November 2018, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

Why bother with all this 'deals' and 'treaties' garbage? Why don't we go full-on hermit like North Korea? If it's good enough for Kim Jong-un, it's good enough for Theresa May.

Shades of '1990', remember Edward Woodward?

jimbob · 18th November 2018, 12:19 PM

Good interview with Melvyn Bragg

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk...99-broadcaster

Quote:

On the "cult" of Brexit:

“These bunch of squirearchal, hedge funding, over-privileged people who think it’s going to be okay – it’s going to be okay for them. They’re not going to suffer – not a bit of it. They don’t offer any evidence now. It’s ceased to be a programme or a process, it’s a cult. It’s a bit like the Moonies. They just believe it because they believe because they believe it. Because they are who they are, they think them believing it is significant. No, it isn’t.”

ETA:

Quote:

And on immigration fears:

“I was canvassing in Carlisle for the Labour party – you couldn’t believe it really – they were worried about immigration. Nearly ninety per cent of the people in Carlisle had been born in and around Carlisle… but ‘oh, this terrible threat of immigration!’”

He (rightly) reserves his most cutting criticism for Cameron.

Aber · 18th November 2018, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

The thing is, once the UK leaves it doesn't HAVE to follow EU regulations any more.

Yes it does, if they are in the Withdrawal Agreement.

There is IIUC a lengthy section on following EU State Aid rules.

The Moog · 18th November 2018, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Aber

Yes it does, if they are in the Withdrawal Agreement.

There is IIUC a lengthy section on following EU State Aid rules.

Don't agree to a withdrawal agreement then. Just crash out with no deal.
It will be fine.

jimbob · 18th November 2018, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by The Moog

Don't agree to a withdrawal agreement then. Just crash out with no deal.
It will be fine.

Remove any sarcasm, and you could actually be David Davis.

The Moog · 18th November 2018, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by jimbob

Remove any sarcasm, and you could actually be David Davis.

Make me Brexit minister, I could do just as good a job.

Strawberry · 18th November 2018, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by The Moog

Make me Brexit minister, I could do just as good a job.

The Downing Street cat could do just as good a job, so that's not saying much.

JoeMorgue · 18th November 2018, 01:49 PM

Given how little the UK was in the EU when it was in the EU I can't imagine an UK that wasn't in the UK would be all that put off.

Strawberry · 18th November 2018, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Given how little the UK was in the EU when it was in the EU I can't imagine an UK that wasn't in the UK would be all that put off.

Eh?

jimbob · 18th November 2018, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by The Moog

Make me Brexit minister, I could do just as good a job.

Actually, thinking about Will o'the Wisp, and assuming that you actually are The Moog from that, then my only concern is that you'd be overqualified.

When did you learn that the Dover-Calais crossing was important for British trade?

If it was earlier than this month, you'd beat Dominic Raab.

And he was an improvement on David Davis.

Strawberry · 18th November 2018, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by jimbob

Actually, thinking about Will o'the Wisp, and assuming that you actually are The Moog from that, then my only concern is that you'd be overqualified.

When did you learn that the Dover-Calais crossing was important for British trade?

If it was earlier than this month, you'd beat Dominic Raab.

And he was an improvement on David Davis.

Davis wanted to do a trade deal with Czechoslavia and avoid an internal border with that part of the UK called Southern Ireland. Raab only just realised where France is.

Such is the quality of leadership these days.

jimbob · 18th November 2018, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Strawberry

Davis wanted to do a trade deal with Czechoslavia and avoid an internal border with that part of the UK called Southern Ireland. Raab only just realised where France is.

Such is the quality of leadership these days.

Indeed, and The Moog was nice but didn't think.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

So definitely Cabinet minister material - although being nice is probably problematic for this government. But still a step up.

17th November 2018, 05:47 PM	#81
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 15,908	So Great Britain leaves the EU, the EU tells Great Britain to do something, Great Britain says "Make me." Great Britain is not a little child that wants to run away from home but can't because Mommy won't let him cross he street. "The EU cannot make countries NOT IN THE FLIPPIN EU do things" is not a discussion.
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

17th November 2018, 05:47 PM	#82
The Moog Thinker Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 238	Originally Posted by Craig B To avoid that, set up a normal policed and secured international border between NI and RoI. Then walk away from the EU. No problem. Ireland might object to that one. Quite vigorously. It would solve the problem though.
The Moog Thinker Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 238	Last edited by The Moog; 17th November 2018 at 05:49 PM.

17th November 2018, 05:47 PM	#83
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Moomin Valley Posts: 14,906	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward There isn't a group that can enforce the contract if one walks. The UK has drafted the 'contract' [agreement] but the row is over whether to sign it as it is. Once signed, the UK will be locked in. It would be grossly irresponsible to just 'walk'. It has a parliament, a monarchy and the armed orces. There will be a ~~peasants~~ revolt by starving angry millions as the banks shut their doors and the shelves in the shops are emptied in the ensuing pandemonium. The UK will be blockaded until it honours its legal liabilities. Food manufacturers have started stockpiling. Maybe it is time for ordinary Brits to do the same. Just sayin'.
	__________________ If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb

17th November 2018, 05:50 PM	#84
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Moomin Valley Posts: 14,906	Originally Posted by Craig B To avoid that, set up a normal policed and secured international border between NI and RoI. Then walk away from the EU. No problem. No. It has had enough of the 'troubles'. No return to that.
	__________________ If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb

17th November 2018, 05:51 PM	#85
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 15,908	Are Scotland and Northern Ireland still threatening to leave the UK if the UK leaves the EU?
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

17th November 2018, 05:51 PM	#86
The Moog Thinker Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 238	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Are Scotland and Northern Ireland still threatening to leave the UK if the UK leaves the EU? A lot of Scots would like to do so... With NI its complicated.
The Moog Thinker Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 238	Last edited by The Moog; 17th November 2018 at 05:53 PM.

17th November 2018, 05:59 PM	#87
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 24,375	Originally Posted by Vixen Really? So when Adobe or Prime (or insert your own subscription service) ask you to sign up for a rolling monthly subscription (usually for twelve months) would you expect to be locked in indefinitely? Or would you avoid such a commitment like the plague? This is what MP's are complaining about: the terms and conditions. If only this disaster had been foreseen! There is no way to square the circle. As the philosopher Mick Jagger once said you can’t always get what you want!
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

17th November 2018, 06:00 PM	#88
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 24,375	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Are Scotland and Northern Ireland still threatening to leave the UK if the UK leaves the EU? Yes and no depending on who you talk to. That’s been true in NI for a long time before Brexit though.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

17th November 2018, 06:03 PM	#89
p0lka Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,155	Originally Posted by Vixen Why? If the UK has to follow its laws and regulations, of course it must expect to have a say in the passing and formulating of legislation. It had a say in the passing and formulating of legislation when the UK was a member, twas kinda the point. The UK apparently is leaving, like...not being a member anymore? You don't get to help make the rules in that situation, why would you think you do?
p0lka Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,155

17th November 2018, 07:07 PM	#90
Amazer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,647	Originally Posted by Vixen Why? If the UK has to follow its laws and regulations, of course it must expect to have a say in the passing and formulating of legislation. Then it's high time that the UK tempers it's expectations.
Amazer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,647

17th November 2018, 07:19 PM	#91
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 24,375	Originally Posted by Vixen He also said, 'Take me to the station, and put me on a train. I have no expectation to pass through here again.' Too bad that when the government was fobbing everyone off with platitudes such as “Brexit means Brexit”, the leavers were too busy laughing at the remoaners instead of taking seriously their points that Brexit could mean many different things, and that the leavers couldn’t possibly have known what they were voting for.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

17th November 2018, 07:20 PM	#92
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 10,988	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward But that isn't a good reason. You can give non member votes. And by "you" I mean any organisation. There isn't a magical force compelling against it. In this case it'd be that the UK is getting a better position that other, less childish non-member countries, would be getting. At this point the complaint about not having votes in the EU parliament is probably from people who've only just learned that they had representation there.
	__________________

18th November 2018, 12:46 AM	#93
Degeneve Muse Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 867	Originally Posted by Vixen Why? If the UK has to follow its laws and regulations, of course it must expect to have a say in the passing and formulating of legislation. No. Brexit means Brexit. The transition period provided by the draft agreement and during which the UK has to follow th EU rules is there only to facilitate the departure of the UK. No more no less.
Degeneve Muse Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 867

18th November 2018, 12:47 AM	#94
Lukraak_Sisser Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,273	The thing is, once the UK leaves it doesn't HAVE to follow EU regulations any more. But the EU will still insist on certain regulations on stuff that gets traded to the EU. So all the UK has to do is stop trading with the EU and all problems are solved. Now admittedly, the EU is the UK's biggest trading partner, but that is something the Leave camp knew beforehand, and they promised that 'it will all go ok', so I'm sure they have a comprehensive plan to replace that trade with something much better.

18th November 2018, 02:14 AM	#95
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 19,955	A neighbour posted on facebook an interview on Sky news where an academic pointed out that from the start it was obvious to many (including many in this thread) there were two sorts of Brexit. The Norway/Switzerland approach (or "pointless Brexit") or the highly damaging Brexit.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

18th November 2018, 02:33 AM	#96
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 84,715	Originally Posted by Degeneve No. Brexit means Brexit. The transition period provided by the draft agreement and during which the UK has to follow th EU rules is there only to facilitate the departure of the UK. No more no less. This does seem to keep getting missed. May hasn't negotiated our final treaty with the EU. The "deal" is how we will leave the EU.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

18th November 2018, 02:40 AM	#97
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: on the edge Posts: 14,150	Originally Posted by Darat This does seem to keep getting missed. May hasn't negotiated our final treaty with the EU. The "deal" is how we will leave the EU. I am fully convinced that by the time we have negotiated a new deal, the technology will be in place to deal with the Irish border Issues, It won't matter if you cross on your ihoverboard or fusion powered flying icar, the quantum scanners will detect any goods and deduct the credits from your ibank.

18th November 2018, 03:05 AM	#99
Henri McPhee Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Bristol UK Posts: 3,310	Jacob Rees-Mogg has moved his Somerset Asset Management company to Ireland to keep it in the EU. That looks like hypocrisy to me by a bunch of millionaire Brexit politicians. The famous old Avon Rubber company in Wiltshire, which is now American owned, is now moving to somewhere like Slovakia. It's not good news even though the public and House of Commons is out of touch with reality and they can only think of cutting public spending and financial and media firms in London.

18th November 2018, 04:48 AM	#100
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 5,345	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue So Great Britain leaves the EU, the EU tells Great Britain to do something, Great Britain says "Make me." Great Britain is not a little child that wants to run away from home but can't because Mommy won't let him cross he street. "The EU cannot make countries NOT IN THE FLIPPIN EU do things" is not a discussion. They can't MAKE you do something, but they can make your life very difficult if you don't. Especially when you are hugely reliant on them for things like food, medicine, and transportation. I mean it's fine to be all cowboy about it, but cowboys don't generally have to explain to millions of people why they aren't going to get their insulin, do they?
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

18th November 2018, 06:08 AM	#101
fagin Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: As far away from casebro as possible. Posts: 7,047	In addition, they are all things agreed to previously. It doesn't make it any easier to make agreements and treaties if you've broken previous ones.
	__________________ There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda

18th November 2018, 06:10 AM	#102
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Deputy Admin Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 41,735	Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal They can't MAKE you do something, but they can make your life very difficult if you don't. Especially when you are hugely reliant on them for things like food, medicine, and transportation. I mean it's fine to be all cowboy about it, but cowboys don't generally have to explain to millions of people why they aren't going to get their insulin, do they? Oh, we don't have to worry about that, they are doubling the stocks of insulin, so the PM won't run out. Of course, what most people hearing this story don't seem to realise is that storing 16 weeks' supply instead of 8 isn't just a formality, it requires planning, more storage facilities, and costs real money. This will apply to everything that is imported currently, because delays are likely due to the uncertainty, and inevitable extra processing delays even once the uncertainty ends.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

18th November 2018, 06:23 AM	#103
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 5,345	Originally Posted by fagin In addition, they are all things agreed to previously. It doesn't make it any easier to make agreements and treaties if you've broken previous ones. And honestly in the big scheme of things £40bn is peanuts in comparison to what is being discussed so if it buys you even a little goodwill then its a price worth paying. It's 1.5% of annual GDP or thereabouts I think. You could probably lose more than that in even a week of transitional chaos from not having a deal.
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

18th November 2018, 06:52 AM	#104
Amazer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,647	Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal They can't MAKE you do something, but they can make your life very difficult if you don't. Especially when you are hugely reliant on them for things like food, medicine, and transportation. I mean it's fine to be all cowboy about it, but cowboys don't generally have to explain to millions of people why they aren't going to get their insulin, do they? It's not even the case that the EU spitefully will makes things difficult... but in case the UK crashes out without a deal then it must be treated exactly the same as other WTO members with whom the EU doesn't have deals. Else it would unfairly discriminate and would be forced to extend the same preferential treatment to all those countries. Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk
Amazer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,647	Last edited by Amazer; 18th November 2018 at 07:35 AM.

18th November 2018, 06:54 AM	#105
Craig B Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 22,620	Originally Posted by Vixen No. It has had enough of the 'troubles'. No return to that. Then the UK requires to cooperate with the EU, of which the Republic of Ireland is, and intends to remain, a member; because the Border in Ireland is the common property of both polities: the EU, including RoI, and the UK, including NI.

18th November 2018, 09:10 AM	#106
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 19,880	Originally Posted by Vixen Why? If the UK has to follow its laws and regulations, of course it must expect to have a say in the passing and formulating of legislation. No. That privilege is reserved for EU members.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

18th November 2018, 09:13 AM	#107
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 19,880	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Are Scotland and Northern Ireland still threatening to leave the UK if the UK leaves the EU? Yep.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

18th November 2018, 11:58 AM	#108
Ian Osborne JREF Kid Tagger Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7,815	Why bother with all this 'deals' and 'treaties' garbage? Why don't we go full-on hermit like North Korea? If it's good enough for Kim Jong-un, it's good enough for Theresa May.
	__________________ "Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced" - Joe Klein, Time magazine "The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan

18th November 2018, 12:19 PM	#109
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 19,880	Originally Posted by Ian Osborne Why bother with all this 'deals' and 'treaties' garbage? Why don't we go full-on hermit like North Korea? If it's good enough for Kim Jong-un, it's good enough for Theresa May. Shades of '1990', remember Edward Woodward?
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

18th November 2018, 12:19 PM	#110
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 19,955	Good interview with Melvyn Bragg https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk...99-broadcaster Quote: On the "cult" of Brexit: “These bunch of squirearchal, hedge funding, over-privileged people who think it’s going to be okay – it’s going to be okay for them. They’re not going to suffer – not a bit of it. They don’t offer any evidence now. It’s ceased to be a programme or a process, it’s a cult. It’s a bit like the Moonies. They just believe it because they believe because they believe it. Because they are who they are, they think them believing it is significant. No, it isn’t.” ETA: Quote: And on immigration fears: “I was canvassing in Carlisle for the Labour party – you couldn’t believe it really – they were worried about immigration. Nearly ninety per cent of the people in Carlisle had been born in and around Carlisle… but ‘oh, this terrible threat of immigration!’” He (rightly) reserves his most cutting criticism for Cameron.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending Last edited by jimbob; 18th November 2018 at 12:20 PM.

18th November 2018, 01:25 PM	#111
Aber Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,399	Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser The thing is, once the UK leaves it doesn't HAVE to follow EU regulations any more. Yes it does, if they are in the Withdrawal Agreement. There is IIUC a lengthy section on following EU State Aid rules.
Aber Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,399

18th November 2018, 01:35 PM	#112
The Moog Thinker Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 238	Originally Posted by Aber Yes it does, if they are in the Withdrawal Agreement. There is IIUC a lengthy section on following EU State Aid rules. Don't agree to a withdrawal agreement then. Just crash out with no deal. It will be fine.
The Moog Thinker Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 238

18th November 2018, 01:42 PM	#113
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 19,955	Originally Posted by The Moog Don't agree to a withdrawal agreement then. Just crash out with no deal. It will be fine. Remove any sarcasm, and you could actually be David Davis.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

18th November 2018, 01:46 PM	#114
The Moog Thinker Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 238	Originally Posted by jimbob Remove any sarcasm, and you could actually be David Davis. Make me Brexit minister, I could do just as good a job.
The Moog Thinker Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 238

18th November 2018, 01:48 PM	#115
Strawberry Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 1,964	Originally Posted by The Moog Make me Brexit minister, I could do just as good a job. The Downing Street cat could do just as good a job, so that's not saying much.

18th November 2018, 01:49 PM	#116
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 15,908	Given how little the UK was in the EU when it was in the EU I can't imagine an UK that wasn't in the UK would be all that put off.
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC