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Old 20th November 2018, 03:22 PM   #161
jimbob
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Clear progress as May goes an entire day with the same cabinet...
This twitter thread continues:

https://twitter.com/garius/status/1064462129582022658

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John Bull


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MAY: Anything in the morning papers?
LIDINGTON: Rees-Mogg says the ERG have almost got enough letters in
MAY: Ha! He said that on Friday too. Have you ever been to an ERG meeting?
LIDINGTON: God no
MAY: It's like someone injected liquefied YouTube comments into some ham

2:15 AM - 19 Nov 2018
Michael Gove as an eldritch abomination is inspired - in side conversations, Garius is calling him GoveThulu.
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Old 20th November 2018, 05:59 PM   #162
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What is May's objection to a new referendum? After showing the world that genies go unwillingly back into bottles, why not ask the citizens if they really want to keep trying to force the cork when it clearly won't fit.
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Old 20th November 2018, 10:33 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
What is May's objection to a new referendum? After showing the world that genies go unwillingly back into bottles, why not ask the citizens if they really want to keep trying to force the cork when it clearly won't fit.
Because that is how democracy works ! You ask the voters something one time and then NEVER again.
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Old 21st November 2018, 12:49 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
What is May's objection to a new referendum? After showing the world that genies go unwillingly back into bottles, why not ask the citizens if they really want to keep trying to force the cork when it clearly won't fit.
Because leaving is the "will of the people" TM
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Old 21st November 2018, 01:42 AM   #165
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The will of people who might split, and/or donate to, the Tory party; the most important people
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Old 21st November 2018, 02:04 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
What is May's objection to a new referendum? After showing the world that genies go unwillingly back into bottles, why not ask the citizens if they really want to keep trying to force the cork when it clearly won't fit.
Because after messing up every job she's had she has tied her career firmly to Brexit and the only way she sees to continue to have a career is to push on.
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Old 21st November 2018, 02:12 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Because after messing up every job she's had she has tied her career firmly to Brexit and the only way she sees to continue to have a career is to push on.
I take it that in cricket, there's no tradition of leaning into the strike zone and taking one for the team.
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Old 21st November 2018, 02:23 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I take it that in cricket, there's no tradition of leaning into the strike zone and taking one for the team.
There are a couple of decent parallels to that in cricket.

However, if I were 99 not out and there was a running mishap, I would no more expect May to sacrifice her wicket than I would expect the moon to fall and the sea to rise.
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Old 21st November 2018, 03:18 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I take it that in cricket, there's no tradition of leaning into the strike zone and taking one for the team.
I'm not sure that the concept "team" could be applied to the current Conservative party.
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Old 21st November 2018, 03:19 AM   #170
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In all this non-stop Brexit waffle on TV, pundits are continually saying that eighty percent of the economy is financial services. That may apply to London and the Home Counties, and perhaps Edinburgh in Scotland, but not so much to places like Birmingham, or Grimsby, or Wales and Northern Ireland.
The matter is discussed at this website:

http:///blogs.sussex.ac.uk/uktpo/201...the-same-flaw/

Quote:
The problem for the UK is that it is scarily competitive in services and pretty mediocre in goods. Among major economic players the UK has the largest share of services in its total exports (44 percent compared with, say, 34 percent for the USA, 31 for Singapore and 28 for the EU). Most countries welcome access to UK goods markets and fear (rightly) that if they open up their service markets to the UK, the competition will be fierce. So, if the UK cannot offer the former in return for the latter, it is not generally an attractive prospect for a trade agreement.

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 21st November 2018 at 03:23 AM.
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Old 21st November 2018, 03:48 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I take it that in cricket, there's no tradition of leaning into the strike zone and taking one for the team.
Ian Botham and Bob Willis once conspired to get Geoff Boycott (team captain at the time) run out in a test match.

Does that count?
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Old 21st November 2018, 04:10 AM   #172
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From https://www.facebook.com/pestonitv/p...14577345533665

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Amber Rudd on the Today Prog gave the game away this morning about how the prime minister and the cabinet expect to get the government's divisive Brexit plan through parliament.
....
So what May, her ministers and her chief whip are banking on (to coin a phrase) is that as and when MPs reject her Brexit plan, the stock market and sterling (in particular) would tank - which would so scare Tory rebel MPs (the Cabinet hopes) that they would at that juncture be persuaded to recant and back May's deal.
.....
If a Brexit deal that a majority of MPs currently reject as being an affront to the UK's right to democratic self-determination were then passed because of fear that otherwise the country would be punished by international investors, by big capital, this would be rich and fertile territory for extremists and populists to exploit.
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Old 21st November 2018, 04:23 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
In all this non-stop Brexit waffle on TV, pundits are continually saying that eighty percent of the economy is financial services. That may apply to London and the Home Counties, and perhaps Edinburgh in Scotland, but not so much to places like Birmingham, or Grimsby, or Wales and Northern Ireland.
The matter is discussed at this website:

http:///blogs.sussex.ac.uk/uktpo/201...the-same-flaw/
Believe it or not, London and the home counties are in the UK. And spin off taxes etc go into the national coffers.

So your point is?
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Old 21st November 2018, 05:29 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Believe it or not, London and the home counties are in the UK. And spin off taxes etc go into the national coffers.

So your point is?
It wouldn't be a very wise system that relied on one small part of the country to generate the wealth to be spent elsewhere. Or worse still generate the wealth to be spent on itself while everywhere else is simply allowed to rot.

i mean you would probably end up with property bubbles, a lack of available workforce for lower paid jobs and simmering resentment elsewhere in the UK.

Thank God we haven't done that then, eh?
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Old 21st November 2018, 05:32 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Ian Botham and Bob Willis once conspired to get Geoff Boycott (team captain at the time) run out in a test match.

Does that count?
Doesn't really capture the noble self-sacrifice of getting hit by a baseball to walk a runner on fourth base into home.
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Old 21st November 2018, 05:51 AM   #176
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Remember when he said

“Saudi Arabia, I get along with all of them. They buy apartments from me. They spend $40 million, $50 million. Am I supposed to dislike them? I like them very much."
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Old 21st November 2018, 06:31 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It wouldn't be a very wise system that relied on one small part of the country to generate the wealth to be spent elsewhere. Or worse still generate the wealth to be spent on itself while everywhere else is simply allowed to rot.

i mean you would probably end up with property bubbles, a lack of available workforce for lower paid jobs and simmering resentment elsewhere in the UK.

Thank God we haven't done that then, eh?
Still totally pointless to trash part of the economy because not all the spin offs are positive.

And Henri's link had nothing to do with that anyway, as usual.
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Old 21st November 2018, 06:55 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Buy some extra refrigerators and freezers to store my food in ...
I don't think I can fit too many in my small flat, but I'll let you in into a little secret: much of the food you import as "fresh" has probably already been stored in a freezer for a year... or two.

Quote:
... as I do believe there might be some slight delay in getting it to me after the 29th March. Thanks.
You believe there might be a delay, eh? Always the optimist. I think you'll find that many businesses will simply say to any orders from the UK "sorry, we don't ship outside the EU". I suggest buying some extra freezers on your side of the North Sea.
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Old 21st November 2018, 07:12 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
I don't think I can fit too many in my small flat, but I'll let you in into a little secret: much of the food you import as "fresh" has probably already been stored in a freezer for a year... or two.

Almost totally untrue. A very small proportion of food sold as fresh has been previously frozen - and much of that is fish. And in the UK it has by law to be labelled as such. Virtually all meat, fruit and vegetables sold as fresh in the UK have never been anywhere near a freezer. Some (apples and potatoes, for instance) will have sat in cold stores, often in an inert atmosphere, for quite some time. But freezing is a totally different thing.



Quote:
You believe there might be a delay, eh? Always the optimist. I think you'll find that many businesses will simply say to any orders from the UK "sorry, we don't ship outside the EU". I suggest buying some extra freezers on your side of the North Sea.


Yes, that sounds about right: they'll unilaterally decide to stop selling their products to some of their larger customers. That sounds like solid business acumen

If Brexit does indeed happen next year - and I'm still not convinced that it actually will - then the worst that will happen is that there'll be a short-term (days) period of mild confusion while systems and processes iron themselves out. We're not switching to all-out hard borders and WTO tariffs on 29th March 2019. In addition, a good proportion of our food - especially grain and fruit/vegetables - comes from outside the EU already; obviously the import processes of those goods will be effectively unaffected.
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Old 21st November 2018, 07:14 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
In addition, a good proportion of our food - especially grain and fruit/vegetables - comes from outside the EU already; obviously the import processes of those goods will be effectively unaffected.
From countries with whom we have a trade agreement that is entirely independent from the EU one?

This is news to me. A bit of a relief to be fair.
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Old 21st November 2018, 07:23 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
From countries with whom we have a trade agreement that is entirely independent from the EU one?

This is news to me. A bit of a relief to be fair.

No, I meant that processes etc will be unchanged on "Brexit Day" for non-EU goods imports. Whereas obviously at the moment a lorry of goods travelling from, say, France to UK simply drives straight through (although there's often a search for illegal migrants....), any goods entering the UK from a point of origin outside the EU (by ship or air cargo) already submit themselves to import checks, inventories, etc.

Therefore on "Brexit Day" I contend that there may be a short-term bottleneck on the EU-import side, on account of the fact that new processes will need to be implemented in the passage of those goods into the UK; but on the other hand, there will be no process change in the import of non-EU goods on that day, and therefore no new bottleneck.
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Old 21st November 2018, 07:26 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post

You believe there might be a delay, eh? Always the optimist. I think you'll find that many businesses will simply say to any orders from the UK "sorry, we don't ship outside the EU". I suggest buying some extra freezers on your side of the North Sea.
Sadly I think you are correct. And equally 'sorry we don't purchase from outside the EU'

I think a lot of the assumptions are that people will just deal with the extra paperwork and inconvenience and hassle but many won't bother. And I don't think many will make exceptions just for the UK.

As Non-EU we are going to find ourselves competing with the Chinese and Koreans on a lot of stuff rather than the Danes or the Germans or the Swiss.
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Old 21st November 2018, 07:30 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
No, I meant that processes etc will be unchanged on "Brexit Day" for non-EU goods imports. Whereas obviously at the moment a lorry of goods travelling from, say, France to UK simply drives straight through (although there's often a search for illegal migrants....), any goods entering the UK from a point of origin outside the EU (by ship or air cargo) already submit themselves to import checks, inventories, etc.

Therefore on "Brexit Day" I contend that there may be a short-term bottleneck on the EU-import side, on account of the fact that new processes will need to be implemented in the passage of those goods into the UK; but on the other hand, there will be no process change in the import of non-EU goods on that day, and therefore no new bottleneck.
And these things are going to be separate are they? Aren't the very same people who are currently checking the non-EU stuff going to have to check EVERYTHING now? So there won't be a business as usual and a clusterfuck there will be a mish mash of clusterfuck as usual.

Bear in mind that a lot of the non-EU imports will still transit via the EU and come through the same infrastructure, use the same trucks and rely on the same inspectors.
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Old 21st November 2018, 07:37 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
In all this non-stop Brexit waffle on TV, pundits are continually saying that eighty percent of the economy is financial services. That may apply to London and the Home Counties, and perhaps Edinburgh in Scotland, but not so much to places like Birmingham, or Grimsby, or Wales and Northern Ireland.
The matter is discussed at this website:

http:///blogs.sussex.ac.uk/uktpo/201...the-same-flaw/
When they say 80% of the economy is services they mean more than just financial services so retail, accountancy, arts and entertainment etc. Adding them all together gives just under 80% of all UK output at least according to the ONS.

London is obviously more service led than say the west midlands but even there well over 60% of the economy is service dominated. I doubt anywhere with a significant population in the UK doesn't have a service dominated economy (maybe Aberdeen with oil but there's a number of services related to that). There are however areas of the UK whose trade isn't service dominated (say for instance Sunderland that exports a lot of cars but maybe not that many services).
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Old 21st November 2018, 07:51 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Sadly I think you are correct. And equally 'sorry we don't purchase from outside the EU'

I think a lot of the assumptions are that people will just deal with the extra paperwork and inconvenience and hassle but many won't bother. And I don't think many will make exceptions just for the UK.

As Non-EU we are going to find ourselves competing with the Chinese and Koreans on a lot of stuff rather than the Danes or the Germans or the Swiss.
Hey america has a bunch of soybeans that the chinese enacted tariffs against in response to our tariffs so maybe those could be made available.
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Old 21st November 2018, 08:00 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
What you have to understand about the DUP is that they want Northern Irland to be treated the same as the rest of the UK. Just the same. Exactly the same.

Except for in the areas of women's rights and reproductive autonomy, gay rights, same sex marriage, cross border trade and movement, use of Ulster Scots, religion........
Sectarian parades, minority veto on laws they don't like, climate change denial......
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Old 21st November 2018, 08:02 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
In matters of social issues pretty much anything NI is an embarrassment for the rest of the UK.
Fixed.
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Old 21st November 2018, 08:08 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Now available on DVD! It's actually quite dreary, as 1970s BBC dystopian drama goes (Survivors is much better!), but bits of it do seem worryingly prophetic, even if the writer thought the "bad" stuff would come about for an entirely different reason.
Indeed. Perhaps The Guardians is a better option?
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Old 21st November 2018, 08:10 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Thirty years of carnage, from 1968 to 1998, was somewhat embarrassing too.
A little OT but the whole GB-on-NI is rather bizarre. A few years ago the main story in Ireland (both bits) was sectarian rioting that left over a hundred police injured and involves bombs, baton rounds and water cannon.
In the rest-of-UK the main story was horsemeat in beef.
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Old 21st November 2018, 08:29 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Virtually all meat, fruit and vegetables sold as fresh in the UK have never been anywhere near a freezer.
That's just what the Dutch want you to believe.

Quote:
Yes, that sounds about right: they'll unilaterally decide to stop selling their products to some of their larger customers. That sounds like solid business acumen
If it saves them from having to deal uncertainty and paperwork by selling it at slightly reduced prices to the Germans, yes.

Quote:
then the worst that will happen is that there'll be a short-term (days) period of mild confusion while systems and processes iron themselves out.
If you started negotiating and designing those systems and processes two years ago, and businesses start educating and hiring the people to do the paper right about now...

Quote:
especially grain and fruit/vegetables
... largely comes from the Netherlands. In the list of biggest exporters of agricultural products, it is "America First, Netherlands Second" (also for the cost of healthcare bureaucracy, though for that the difference between the number 1 and number 2 spots is a bit bigger).

Quote:
- comes from outside the EU already; obviously the import processes of those goods will be effectively unaffected.
... if they didn't enter the EU through the port of Rotterdam.
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Old 21st November 2018, 09:49 AM   #191
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But other than-:

women's rights and reproductive autonomy, gay rights, same sex marriage, cross border trade and movement, use of Ulster Scots, religion........

Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Sectarian parades, minority veto on laws they don't like, climate change denial......
Exactly the same.
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Old 21st November 2018, 03:02 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
No, I meant that processes etc will be unchanged on "Brexit Day" for non-EU goods imports. Whereas obviously at the moment a lorry of goods travelling from, say, France to UK simply drives straight through (although there's often a search for illegal migrants....), any goods entering the UK from a point of origin outside the EU (by ship or air cargo) already submit themselves to import checks, inventories, etc.

Therefore on "Brexit Day" I contend that there may be a short-term bottleneck on the EU-import side, on account of the fact that new processes will need to be implemented in the passage of those goods into the UK; but on the other hand, there will be no process change in the import of non-EU goods on that day, and therefore no new bottleneck.
Apart from the trade agreements we currently have with non EU countries are part of us being in the EU?

There will not be any agreements or treaties when we leave.

What happens then?
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Old 21st November 2018, 03:18 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Indeed. Perhaps The Guardians is a better option?
Nah, couldn't get into it - seemed even more talky than 1990's slower bits. I may give it another try at some point we can't afford to do anything other than sit at home watching TV, though.

I would recommend Knights of God, though.
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Old 21st November 2018, 03:32 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
That's just what the Dutch want you to believe.
Utter nonsense.

Try this - freeze a fresh strawberry for a fair time, defrost it, then try to pass it off as 'fresh'. They get mushy. The FSM only knows how a whole raw potato might turn out.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 04:21 AM   #195
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Apparently draft agreement on future relationship agreed in principle between UK and EU. Some details starting to appear.

ETA: Although a lot of the agreement seems to be agreeing to agree something during the transition period if they can.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 05:11 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Apparently draft agreement on future relationship agreed in principle between UK and EU. Some details starting to appear.

ETA: Although a lot of the agreement seems to be agreeing to agree something during the transition period if they can.
That's not particularly surprising since it's basically just a statement of intent.

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Old 22nd November 2018, 06:11 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Mid View Post
Typical EU, missing the fire off Wales Although at least they included it on the map this time
Too wet to burn.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 08:53 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
What is May's objection to a new referendum? After showing the world that genies go unwillingly back into bottles, why not ask the citizens if they really want to keep trying to force the cork when it clearly won't fit.
Because her desired outcome is not really to save the economy, it is for Theresa May to remain in power for as long as can be achieved and then for the Conservatives to continue to rule, over the smouldering wreckage if need be.

Cancelling Brexit would be anathema to all the Leave voters she needs to keep onside.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 09:19 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Because her desired outcome is not really to save the economy, it is for Theresa May to remain in power for as long as can be achieved and then for the Conservatives to continue to rule, over the smouldering wreckage if need be.

Cancelling Brexit would be anathema to all the Leave voters she needs to keep onside.
As has always been the case.

Priority 1: Stay in power
Priority 2: Make life as easy as possible for us and our mates
Priority 3: Give the plebs and darkies an occasional kick in the teeth just to remind them that we are their betters.
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Old 22nd November 2018, 10:50 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hey america has a bunch of soybeans that the chinese enacted tariffs against in response to our tariffs so maybe those could be made available.
Mmmm Soybeans for lunch again…
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