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Old 25th November 2018, 05:41 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
So they've finalized the draft agreement, which seems to agree nothing except to agree everything after the UK leaves the EU. there's a lot of bland aspirations and platitudes that May will doubtless spin as a victory but the truth is a hard Brexit is still very much on the table. The BBC gives some analysis of the fluff here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46303751
You all know you're ****** right?
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Old 25th November 2018, 06:17 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
You all know you're ****** right?
It looks as though a majority of the country now realise this.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 25th November 2018, 06:20 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
You all know you're ****** right?
I believe that is the subtext of the agreement, we have essentially agreed to what kind of dive we will perform when we jump off the cliff.
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Old 25th November 2018, 06:23 AM   #244
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How will England ever survive without the EU, oh noes!!!!
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Old 25th November 2018, 06:29 AM   #245
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PM Theresa May is such a liar. 'No other deal is possible': rubbish!

'If this is not voted for, it will cause division and uncertainty'. So what? Surely it is better to have 'division and uncertainty' than to engage in a deal that might be wrong with massive repercussions for the future. It's like finding your dream house and just as you are about to buy (as happened to me once) there is a downpour of rain and it all comes flooding through the window frames. Of course you don't go ahead without further thought.

As for Gibraltar: this makes me hopping mad with fury. This is going to be negotiated separately. Really? You don't sign off on a deal without EVERYTHING negotiated. Imagine starting a new job and then approaching your employers to demand a 50% payrise and a company car shortly afterwards. Hello? You missed the boat. You should have negotiated BEFORE you signed the contract.

Then she makes the rather offensive assumption that the important thing for Leave voters is to 'stop EU nationals jumping the queue'. So we are all happy then that the Frogs and Krauts can't just turn up. No, it doesn't work like that. As for her opening the doors to highly skilled guys from Australia and 'Delhi' (to illustrate she isn't 'being racist'), actually, new immigrants will have to show a salary of £30K a year to be allowed in. It is clearly racist and possibly sexist as the awfully nice doctor from Delhi is less likely to be on that salary than someone from Canada, let alone their lovely spouse.
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Old 25th November 2018, 06:49 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
PM Theresa May is such a liar. 'No other deal is possible': rubbish!
No other deal is possible before Brexit date... maybe it is possible to change a few details here and there but other than that...

Quote:
'If this is not voted for, it will cause division and uncertainty'. So what? Surely it is better to have 'division and uncertainty' than to engage in a deal that might be wrong with massive repercussions for the future. It's like finding your dream house and just as you are about to buy (as happened to me once) there is a downpour of rain and it all comes flooding through the window frames. Of course you don't go ahead without further thought.
You are out of time.... you either take this deal or you crash out without one. Crashing out is going to be quite a bit worse than what you get with this deal.

Quote:
As for Gibraltar: this makes me hopping mad with fury. This is going to be negotiated separately. Really? You don't sign off on a deal without EVERYTHING negotiated. Imagine starting a new job and then approaching your employers to demand a 50% payrise and a company car shortly afterwards. Hello? You missed the boat. You should have negotiated BEFORE you signed the contract.
You should be happy that Gibraltar was not considered such an important issue as the Irish border. If it had been, then it would have been hammered down in the Exit Agreement, just like the Irish backstop has been. I'm quite sure that would have been even less to your liking. At least for now nothing has changed for the UK with regard to Gibraltar.

Quote:
Then she makes the rather offensive assumption that the important thing for Leave voters is to 'stop EU nationals jumping the queue'. So we are all happy then that the Frogs and Krauts can't just turn up. No, it doesn't work like that. As for her opening the doors to highly skilled guys from Australia and 'Delhi' (to illustrate she isn't 'being racist'), actually, new immigrants will have to show a salary of £30K a year to be allowed in. It is clearly racist and possibly sexist as the awfully nice doctor from Delhi is less likely to be on that salary than someone from Canada, let alone their lovely spouse.
The salary bit doesn't actually refer to salaries earned in their respective home countries. It does refer to the salary that is offered for the jobs they intend to take in the UK. In that respect a doctor from Dehli is more likely to meet the requirements than for example someone from Canada (especially if that person isn't particullary skilled).
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Old 25th November 2018, 06:49 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
PM Theresa May is such a liar. 'No other deal is possible': rubbish!
Do you honestly think it is possible to get another deal done right now? In three months?
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Old 25th November 2018, 06:51 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
Can someone explain to me how we could have a frictionless border with Ireland even if we had a free trade agreement with the EU?

Surely free trade doesn't mean no borders?
If it includes a customs and regulatory union then you eliminate the need for checks. If it doesn't then yes you probably can't.

Similarly for the movement of people.

Though I guess there are different levels of friction.
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Old 25th November 2018, 06:57 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
No other deal is possible before Brexit date... maybe it is possible to change a few details here and there but other than that...


You are out of time.... you either take this deal or you crash out without one. Crashing out is going to be quite a bit worse than what you get with this deal.


You should be happy that Gibraltar was not considered such an important issue as the Irish border. If it had been, then it would have been hammered down in the Exit Agreement, just like the Irish backstop has been. I'm quite sure that would have been even less to your liking. At least for now nothing has changed for the UK with regard to Gibraltar.


The salary bit doesn't actually refer to salaries earned in their respective home countries. It does refer to the salary that is offered for the jobs they intend to take in the UK. In that respect a doctor from Dehli is more likely to meet the requirements than for example someone from Canada (especially if that person isn't particullary skilled).
I don't think it's true to say no other deal is possible. What isn't possible is a bespoke deal but we could I think agree to join the EEA for example before the deadline.

Non-EU immigration is a ******** (a lot of it of TM's own making) and her nonsense on queue-jumping was pathetic. She is the one who wanted to create a hostile environment for immigrants after all.
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Old 25th November 2018, 06:59 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do you honestly think it is possible to get another deal done right now? In three months?
Depends on the deal... not the one the Brexiteers want no. But then the impossible cannot be delivered on any timeframe.
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Old 25th November 2018, 07:01 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do you honestly think it is possible to get another deal done right now? In three months?
No, but it is possible to simply admit that no possible Brexit deal will benefit the UK economy as much as remaining in the EU, but I'm not holding my breath.

Also remember this 'deal' just covers leaving, all the hard work about the UK's relationship with the EU post Brexit is still to be done. Given how long its taken to come up with this incredibly vague and woolly statement that's hardly likely to be a swift and painless process.
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Old 25th November 2018, 07:05 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
No, but it is possible to simply admit that no possible Brexit deal will benefit the UK economy as much as remaining in the EU, but I'm not holding my breath.

Also remember this 'deal' just covers leaving, all the hard work about the UK's relationship with the EU post Brexit is still to be done. Given how long its taken to come up with this incredibly vague and woolly statement that's hardly likely to be a swift and painless process.
Do we know if most leave voters thought it would improve the economy?
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Old 25th November 2018, 07:12 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do we know if most leave voters thought it would improve the economy?
The Leave campaign certainly claimed we would have a trade deal as good if not better than the one we currently have with the EU, see the quotes Ian Osborne posted earlier. The general idea was that the UK was so important to the EU they would bend over backwards to accommodate us, at least that was what Leave claimed publicly.
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Old 25th November 2018, 07:16 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
The Leave campaign certainly claimed we would have a trade deal as good if not better than the one we currently have with the EU, see the quotes Ian Osborne posted earlier. The general idea was that the UK was so important to the EU they would bend over backwards to accommodate us, at least that was what Leave claimed publicly.
Is there polling of the voters?
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Old 25th November 2018, 08:19 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do you honestly think it is possible to get another deal done right now? In three months?
To quote one of May's own tautisms, 'Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed'.

Of course, you can carrying on negotiating until you are happy.

Or are you one of these people who rationalises, 'Oh dear the wing mirror is hanging off and the tail lights don't work. The brakes are faulty, but I can discuss that with the smarmy car salesman another day. I'll take it. After all the poor salesman is getting a bit tired of my constantly asking for a car that meets my clear specifications. After all, his satisfaction is of more importance and priority than mine. OOOPS! The engine has just fallen out. Never mind <shrug> this is the only possible deal. I'll just have to take it and tough titties if the bumpers look a bit bent.'

Thinks to self: now I am going to have to sell my decision to the wife. Let me see. What about. 'Darling it is in the interest of our household. We ccannot go back to the car dealership and ask for a better deal. It's either the old banger I've just bought for £21K or nothing. Is that what you want? Arguments and divisions int he family about whose turn it is to use the bike?'
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Old 25th November 2018, 08:21 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
No other deal is possible before Brexit date... maybe it is possible to change a few details here and there but other than that...


You are out of time.... you either take this deal or you crash out without one. Crashing out is going to be quite a bit worse than what you get with this deal.


You should be happy that Gibraltar was not considered such an important issue as the Irish border. If it had been, then it would have been hammered down in the Exit Agreement, just like the Irish backstop has been. I'm quite sure that would have been even less to your liking. At least for now nothing has changed for the UK with regard to Gibraltar.


The salary bit doesn't actually refer to salaries earned in their respective home countries. It does refer to the salary that is offered for the jobs they intend to take in the UK. In that respect a doctor from Dehli is more likely to meet the requirements than for example someone from Canada (especially if that person isn't particullary skilled).
AIUI if the doctor from Delhi wants to bring his dear lady wife with him SHE has to prove she has a salary of £30K to come to. How likely is that if they have young children?
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Old 25th November 2018, 08:31 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
AIUI if the doctor from Delhi wants to bring his dear lady wife with him SHE has to prove she has a salary of £30K to come to. How likely is that if they have young children?
Moving the goalposts.
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Old 25th November 2018, 08:42 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Moving the goalposts.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
AIUI if the doctor from Delhi wants to bring his dear lady wife with him SHE has to prove she has a salary of £30K to come to. How likely is that if they have young children?
There is usually different rules for dependents... it's usually enough to show that there is an ongoing, long-term relationship (I'm case of spouses/partners).

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Old 25th November 2018, 08:42 AM   #259
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Brexit: Now What? Part 6. Pick up sticks...

Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
I believe that is the subtext of the agreement, we have essentially agreed to what kind of dive we will perform when we jump off the cliff.


Not quite. We have decided that after we jump off the cliff we will then decide on a) what type of dive we want and b) where we hope to land.

Meanwhile the leavers are claiming that once we jump we will grow wings and/or negotiate a deal in which gravity won’t apply to us.
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Old 25th November 2018, 08:56 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Or are you one of these people who rationalises, 'Oh dear the wing mirror is hanging off and the tail lights don't work. The brakes are faulty, but I can discuss that with the smarmy car salesman another day. I'll take it. After all the poor salesman is getting a bit tired of my constantly asking for a car that meets my clear specifications. After all, his satisfaction is of more importance and priority than mine. OOOPS! The engine has just fallen out. Never mind <shrug> this is the only possible deal. I'll just have to take it and tough titties if the bumpers look a bit bent.'
The big difference is that if you are not happy with what a car dealer offers, to can check whether another one can make a better offer.

In the case at and, there is no alternative. You need to take what the car dealer offers you or have not car at all.
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Old 25th November 2018, 09:11 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
The big difference is that if you are not happy with what a car dealer offers, to can check whether another one can make a better offer.

In the case at and, there is no alternative. You need to take what the car dealer offers you or have not car at all.
That is not true for May. She is a lousy negotiator. Negotiation is an art. The guys at ACAS have arbitrators with arbitration diplomas. It is knowing how to drive a hard bargain between, say, a rail union with striking members holding out for specific conditions against the bosses on behalf of the government 'refusing to budge'.

A good negotiator will hammer out a deal that is win-win for both sides.

May has no negotiating skill at all. She has sold the UK down the river (thank goodness for Gina Miller forcing her to have it approved by parliament first). She has brought about a 'lose-win' deal in the EU's favour. Of course they have approved it. What's not to approve? She has conceded at every possible juncture. She has made the fatal mistake of wanting to be liked. She has shown herself to be acquiescent and amenable when toughness and vision was needed. To try to cover up her deficient negotiations - if we can even call it that; 'surrender' is a better word - she makes matters worse by using dog-whistle racism in her appeal to the British public ('no more queue-jumping by EU nationals') and blatant lies.

Someone needs to give her Sun Tzu, The Art of War for Christmas. She sees herself as a latter day 'Iron Lady' Thatcher, when in reality May is a pushover five-quid slut in curlers who'll say, 'OK, I'll do it for a quid'.
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Old 25th November 2018, 09:16 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That is not true for May. She is a lousy negotiator. Negotiation is an art. The guys at ACAS have arbitrators with arbitration diplomas. It is knowing how to drive a hard bargain between, say, a rail union with striking members holding out for specific conditions against the bosses on behalf of the government 'refusing to budge'.

A good negotiator will hammer out a deal that is win-win for both sides.

May has no negotiating skill at all. She has sold the UK down the river (thank goodness for Gina Miller forcing her to have it approved by parliament first). She has brought about a 'lose-win' deal in the EU's favour. Of course they have approved it. What's not to approve? She has conceded at every possible juncture. She has made the fatal mistake of wanting to be liked. She has shown herself to be acquiescent and amenable when toughness and vision was needed. To try to cover up her deficient negotiations - if we can even call it that; 'surrender' is a better word - she makes matters worse by using dog-whistle racism in her appeal to the British public ('no more queue-jumping by EU nationals') and blatant lies.

Someone needs to give her Sun Tzu, The Art of War for Christmas. She sees herself as a latter day 'Iron Lady' Thatcher, when in reality May is a pushover five-quid slut in curlers who'll say, 'OK, I'll do it for a quid'.
What is the actual evidence she is a bad negotiator?
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Old 25th November 2018, 09:21 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What is the actual evidence she is a bad negotiator?
Er, the deal she has hammered out puts the UK in a worse position than it is already in. It's like asking for a pay rise and accepting a pay cut.

She has thrown Northern Ireland and Gibraltar to the dogs whilst mouthing lies about doing things in the 'national interest'.

Never since Neville Chamberlain has Britain seen this level of appeasement. In Chamberlain's case it was understandable.
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Old 25th November 2018, 09:32 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Er, the deal she has hammered out puts the UK in a worse position than it is already in. It's like asking for a pay rise and accepting a pay cut.

She has thrown Northern Ireland and Gibraltar to the dogs whilst mouthing lies about doing things in the 'national interest'.

Never since Neville Chamberlain has Britain seen this level of appeasement. In Chamberlain's case it was understandable.
It isn't self evident from a deal whether the negotiators were good or bad.
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Old 25th November 2018, 09:39 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
The big difference is that if you are not happy with what a car dealer offers, to can check whether another one can make a better offer.

In the case at and, there is no alternative. You need to take what the car dealer offers you or have not car at all.
Not to mention that we have an (as yet) non binding agreement to part exchange our current, perfectly good car and a wad of cash for this crap heap, but the lying bastards who repeatedly and publicly assured us that we could swap our car for a Ferrari or a Buggatti, free insurance, no service costs ever and complimentary petrol for life keep screaming that we've made our decision to change cars and can't back out and anyway with the wonderful British weather why should we care about the hole in the roof, the floor, the broken window and the door that keeps falling off?
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Old 25th November 2018, 09:46 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Er, the deal she has hammered out puts the UK in a worse position than it is already in. It's like asking for a pay rise and accepting a pay cut.
Any deal you were going to get from the EU was going to put the UK in a worse position than it already had. It wouldn't have mattered even if you had the best negotiator in the world argueing your case.

Quote:
She has thrown Northern Ireland and Gibraltar to the dogs whilst mouthing lies about doing things in the 'national interest'.
My guess is that May is acting in the national interest... my guess is that leaving without a deal would actually be worse then they have let on till now. For example the recent news: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...S-No-Deal.html
Leads me to believe that there are a considerable number of other issues which haven't been to the attention of the general public which would have considerable negative impact on the quality of life in the UK.

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Never since Neville Chamberlain has Britain seen this level of appeasement. In Chamberlain's case it was understandable.
It very well might be understandable here too.
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Old 25th November 2018, 10:21 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That is not true for May. She is a lousy negotiator. Negotiation is an art. The guys at ACAS have arbitrators with arbitration diplomas. It is knowing how to drive a hard bargain between, say, a rail union with striking members holding out for specific conditions against the bosses on behalf of the government 'refusing to budge'.

A good negotiator will hammer out a deal that is win-win for both sides.

May has no negotiating skill at all. She has sold the UK down the river (thank goodness for Gina Miller forcing her to have it approved by parliament first). She has brought about a 'lose-win' deal in the EU's favour. Of course they have approved it. What's not to approve? She has conceded at every possible juncture. She has made the fatal mistake of wanting to be liked. She has shown herself to be acquiescent and amenable when toughness and vision was needed. To try to cover up her deficient negotiations - if we can even call it that; 'surrender' is a better word - she makes matters worse by using dog-whistle racism in her appeal to the British public ('no more queue-jumping by EU nationals') and blatant lies.

Someone needs to give her Sun Tzu, The Art of War for Christmas. She sees herself as a latter day 'Iron Lady' Thatcher, when in reality May is a pushover five-quid slut in curlers who'll say, 'OK, I'll do it for a quid'.
No, a brilliant negotiator would have maybe been able to hammer out a win-win deal.
If you're so fond of Sun-Tzu, maybe read up on what he has to say about breaking alliance to negotiate a better one when you are clearly in the weaker position.
Because THAT is the position the UK is dealing from.
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Old 25th November 2018, 10:28 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Er, the deal she has hammered out puts the UK in a worse position than it is already in. It's like asking for a pay rise and accepting a pay cut.
As a matter of fact it is the Brexit vote that has put the UK in worse position that it is already in.

She just tried to limit the damage.
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Old 25th November 2018, 11:01 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
If you're on twitter it's seriously worth following https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla
I can highly recommend her piece in today's Observer: Who is the real Nigel Farage... and why won't he answer my questions?

Plenty of questions asked, but one does suspect that Farage will go to great lengths to avoid having to answer them. And why.

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Old 25th November 2018, 12:22 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
How will England ever survive without the EU, oh noes!!!!
England will survive, but the UK probably won't.
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Old 25th November 2018, 02:31 PM   #271
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I think that the Brexit supporters who are demanding that there should be no second referendum should remember that;

1 - if the vote had been to remain, they would be campaigning for a second referendum.

2 - it was only 51.9% to 48.1% with many people not being fully aware of what the EU was and even more are unhappy with how Brexit has worked out so far.
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Old 25th November 2018, 02:37 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
If it includes a customs and regulatory union then you eliminate the need for checks. If it doesn't then yes you probably can't.

Similarly for the movement of people.

Though I guess there are different levels of friction.
So I don't understand how can Brexiteers imagine there doesn't need to be a border?
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Old 25th November 2018, 02:37 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
England will survive, but the UK probably won't.
I see a probable future of referendums every 20 or so years as we leave and rejoin the EU and the UK breaks of and reforms.
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Old 25th November 2018, 03:29 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
As a matter of fact it is the Brexit vote that has put the UK in worse position that it is already in.

She just tried to limit the damage.
Indeed... people voted to be worse off and then complain that they are worse off.
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Old 25th November 2018, 03:30 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
So I don't understand how can Brexiteers imagine there doesn't need to be a border?
Have you met a Brexiteer? Delusional would be an understatement
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Old 25th November 2018, 03:31 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I see a probable future of referendums every 20 or so years as we leave and rejoin the EU and the UK breaks of and reforms.
Scotland would join that long list of countries that gained independence and regretted it and and tried to rejoin the parent union....

....that list being nobody ever.
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Old 25th November 2018, 03:46 PM   #277
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There is a lot of speculation about what the remainers who voted want. Does the UK not have polls to resolve this speculation?
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Old 25th November 2018, 03:51 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is a lot of speculation about what the remainers who voted want. Does the UK not have polls to resolve this speculation?
Remainers wanted to stay in the EU.
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Old 25th November 2018, 03:57 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I think that the Brexit supporters who are demanding that there should be no second referendum should remember that;

1 - if the vote had been to remain, they would be campaigning for a second referendum.

2 - it was only 51.9% to 48.1% with many people not being fully aware of what the EU was and even more are unhappy with how Brexit has worked out so far.
It's worth remembering that when PM Edward Heath took the UK into what was then the EEC in the first place, he knew there was fierce opposition amongst MP's and it wouldn't get past the House of Commons. So he very cleverly put it to the public.

A tactic May is trying now - even to the extent of offering to appear in a TV debate, something she refused for the Referendum - only, she isn't stupid enough to let the public vote, knowing she'd be thoroughly trounced.
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Old 25th November 2018, 04:43 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do we know if most leave voters thought it would improve the economy?
The latest YouGov poll I've seen says half of Leave voters think No Deal would be good for Britain and a quarter think it would be bad. As you may imagine, the vast majority of Remain voters think No Deal would be bad.
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