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Old 25th November 2018, 05:32 PM   #281
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
The latest YouGov poll I've seen says half of Leave voters think No Deal would be good for Britain and a quarter think it would be bad. As you may imagine, the vast majority of Remain voters think No Deal would be bad.
Which means a majority of UK people oppose hard brexit. Seems May actually accomplished a good deal based on that.
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Old 26th November 2018, 02:33 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is a lot of speculation about what the remainers who voted want. Does the UK not have polls to resolve this speculation?
Remainers voted for the status quo, so suggesting there is speculation over what they want/ed is pretty weird. It's the Leavers who seem to want every variation of "leaving" - even mutually contradictory ones - who are the problem.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 26th November 2018 at 02:35 AM.
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:22 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
After Brexit the UK will run out of Mars bars within two weeks. And much more:
According to a person who has been briefed on DEFRAís internal discussions on no deal, officials are forecasting that the disruption to food imports and exports could last for more than six months, leading to shortages on supermarket shelves and putting enormous financial pressure on businesses that depend on exports to the EU.
Hmm will the ration books be blue? That will be what the people wanted surely.
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:27 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hmm will the ration books be blue? That will be what the people wanted surely.
Yes, but they'll be printed in France.
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:28 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
To quote one of May's own tautisms, 'Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed'.

Of course, you can carrying on negotiating until you are happy.

Or are you one of these people who rationalises, 'Oh dear the wing mirror is hanging off and the tail lights don't work. The brakes are faulty, but I can discuss that with the smarmy car salesman another day. I'll take it. After all the poor salesman is getting a bit tired of my constantly asking for a car that meets my clear specifications. After all, his satisfaction is of more importance and priority than mine. OOOPS! The engine has just fallen out. Never mind <shrug> this is the only possible deal. I'll just have to take it and tough titties if the bumpers look a bit bent.'

Thinks to self: now I am going to have to sell my decision to the wife. Let me see. What about. 'Darling it is in the interest of our household. We ccannot go back to the car dealership and ask for a better deal. It's either the old banger I've just bought for £21K or nothing. Is that what you want? Arguments and divisions int he family about whose turn it is to use the bike?'
Well it is this or you lose your job because you can't get to work. Makes it kind of an easy sell. Pity you got rid of your old car before you even decided what kind of new car to get.
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:29 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
She has thrown Northern Ireland and Gibraltar to the dogs whilst mouthing lies about doing things in the 'national interest'.
Nonsense the voters did that. Brexit means brexit and they never cared at all about those foreign places.
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:31 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
So I don't understand how can Brexiteers imagine there doesn't need to be a border?
See it was all about taking back your borders but of course not any of the land borders.
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:33 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Yes, but they'll be printed in France.
That's fine, this is all about symbols and such not jobs after all.
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:35 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
See it was all about taking back your borders but of course not any of the land borders.
I used to live in West Drayton, I never realised at the time that I was scant miles from the UK's only border. [Things Brexit taught us]
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Old 26th November 2018, 04:37 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Pity you got rid of your old car before you even decided what kind of new car to get.
To be fair, we haven't actually got rid of it yet, we've just decided that the will of the household is to scrap it because that's what we decided two years ago before we'd looked at buying a new one and it's inconceivable that we could allow ourselves to change our mind until after the old car's gone to the crusher.

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Old 26th November 2018, 04:48 AM   #291
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Brexit deal 'will cost UK £100bn' by 2030
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:26 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Remainers voted for the status quo, so suggesting there is speculation over what they want/ed is pretty weird. It's the Leavers who seem to want every variation of "leaving" - even mutually contradictory ones - who are the problem.
I listed the wrong group in a rush.
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Old 26th November 2018, 05:28 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I listed the wrong group in a rush.
To be fair, one prominent Brexiteer in this thread did make the claim a while back that it wasn't exactly clear what Remain wanted. Frankly it didn't seem much less coherent than anything else coming from the Brexit camp.

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Old 26th November 2018, 06:57 AM   #294
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Can anyone explain why TM is bothering to try to convince the people she has made a good deal when the people don't have any say on it anyway? It's mostly her own MPs she has to convince at this stage.
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Old 26th November 2018, 07:03 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Bloody experts!
Who needs 'em?
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Old 26th November 2018, 07:03 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Can anyone explain why TM is bothering to try to convince the people she has made a good deal when the people don't have any say on it anyway? It's mostly her own MPs she has to convince at this stage.
I think she's hoping that people will put pressure on their MPs to vote for it.
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Old 26th November 2018, 07:31 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
I think she's hoping that people will put pressure on their MPs to vote for it.
Interesting concept... MPs listening to their constituents.
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Old 26th November 2018, 07:49 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Interesting concept... MPs listening to their constituents.
I know. She obviously feels its worth a try though.
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Old 26th November 2018, 08:06 AM   #299
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In further good news for the Brexiteer sheeple, HMRC has stated that its preparations for a Northern Ireland backstop could take up to 30 months, after the government had decided how the mechanism will work. While the Brexit transition period ends in two years.

The two permanent secretaries at the Treasury, James Harra and Jon Thompson, were speaking to the Treasury Committee this week, in what Thompson said was his thirteenth Brexit-related select committee appearance. He stated that creating the systems required for the Northern Ireland backstop could take more than two years, but also said this was based on a series of assumptions.
"It is really difficult to answer that question," he said when asked if a backstop would be ready by December 2020, which is when the transition period is currently scheduled to end.

He said that his department needed further clarity "on what exactly is required in order for us to be able to work out what IT systems we would need to build" and also on what EU IT systems and databases it would still have access to.
After the Treasury has these two sets of information, it can start to specify the operations required and build IT systems to do it (or contract that out, at significant cost). At this point "we would need businesses that are transacting towards Northern Ireland to adapt or amend their own systems".
"In broad terms, if we were to make a number of assumptions, we think it could be up to 30 months to do that work," he said.
But the clock won't start ticking until the governments reach an agreement.
PDF of the report.
Draft declaration.

ETA: I should also point out that most IT experts think 30 months is grossly insufficient, especially those who remember childcare payment system fiasco of 2014 to date.
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Last edited by catsmate; 26th November 2018 at 08:08 AM.
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Old 26th November 2018, 08:48 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Er, the deal she has hammered out puts the UK in a worse position than it is already in.
Of course it did. Leaving the EU is a net negative, any deal to leave was always going to be worse than staying in the EU.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's like asking for a pay rise and accepting a pay cut.
Itís more like taking a new lower paying job, then being surprised you end up taking a pay cut because your old employer wonít pay you after you stop working there.
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Old 26th November 2018, 11:16 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Of course it did. Leaving the EU is a net negative, any deal to leave was always going to be worse than staying in the EU.

Itís more like taking a new lower paying job, then being surprised you end up taking a pay cut because your old employer wonít pay you after you stop working there.
Nonsense. The EU could have agreed to give us all the benefits of being in the EU, less us not paying anything and not having to follow any regulations and not allowing EU citizens right of residency or work, but allowing UK citizens the right to live and work in the EU. They've just cut their nose of to spite their face!
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Old 26th November 2018, 11:18 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
In further good news for the Brexiteer sheeple, HMRC has stated that its preparations for a Northern Ireland backstop could take up to 30 months, after the government had decided how the mechanism will work. While the Brexit transition period ends in two years.

The two permanent secretaries at the Treasury, James Harra and Jon Thompson, were speaking to the Treasury Committee this week, in what Thompson said was his thirteenth Brexit-related select committee appearance. He stated that creating the systems required for the Northern Ireland backstop could take more than two years, but also said this was based on a series of assumptions.
"It is really difficult to answer that question," he said when asked if a backstop would be ready by December 2020, which is when the transition period is currently scheduled to end.

He said that his department needed further clarity "on what exactly is required in order for us to be able to work out what IT systems we would need to build" and also on what EU IT systems and databases it would still have access to.
After the Treasury has these two sets of information, it can start to specify the operations required and build IT systems to do it (or contract that out, at significant cost). At this point "we would need businesses that are transacting towards Northern Ireland to adapt or amend their own systems".
"In broad terms, if we were to make a number of assumptions, we think it could be up to 30 months to do that work," he said.
But the clock won't start ticking until the governments reach an agreement.
PDF of the report.
Draft declaration.

ETA: I should also point out that most IT experts think 30 months is grossly insufficient, especially those who remember childcare payment system fiasco of 2014 to date.
Nah silly assumptions. Don't they know they just have to close their eyes and wish really strongly and a working system will appear? Have they not listened to the leavers at all.
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Old 26th November 2018, 01:24 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Interesting concept... MPs listening to their constituents.
It's a novel experience for me, but my (new) MP has been holding consultations on Brexit - and in general seems to be pretty responsive.
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Old 26th November 2018, 02:11 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
The latest YouGov poll I've seen says half of Leave voters think No Deal would be good for Britain and a quarter think it would be bad. As you may imagine, the vast majority of Remain voters think No Deal would be bad.
Well those who think No Deal would a good idea are the ones who still listen to the likes of Johnson and Rees-Mogg, and they are as much a lost cause as the hardcore Trumpistas.
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Old 26th November 2018, 02:20 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Well those who think No Deal would a good idea are the ones who still listen to the likes of Johnson and Rees-Mogg, and they are as much a lost cause as the hardcore Trumpistas.
AKA Daily Mail readers.
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Old 27th November 2018, 04:33 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That is not true for May. She is a lousy negotiator. Negotiation is an art. The guys at ACAS have arbitrators with arbitration diplomas. It is knowing how to drive a hard bargain between, say, a rail union with striking members holding out for specific conditions against the bosses on behalf of the government 'refusing to budge'.

A good negotiator will hammer out a deal that is win-win for both sides.

May has no negotiating skill at all. She has sold the UK down the river (thank goodness for Gina Miller forcing her to have it approved by parliament first). She has brought about a 'lose-win' deal in the EU's favour. Of course they have approved it. What's not to approve? She has conceded at every possible juncture. She has made the fatal mistake of wanting to be liked. She has shown herself to be acquiescent and amenable when toughness and vision was needed. To try to cover up her deficient negotiations - if we can even call it that; 'surrender' is a better word - she makes matters worse by using dog-whistle racism in her appeal to the British public ('no more queue-jumping by EU nationals') and blatant lies.

Someone needs to give her Sun Tzu, The Art of War for Christmas. She sees herself as a latter day 'Iron Lady' Thatcher, when in reality May is a pushover five-quid slut in curlers who'll say, 'OK, I'll do it for a quid'.
As you said in 4/5/18, in your circles it is normal to jokingly call a friend 'you slut' for still being in a dressing gown and slippers. Is this what you mean here?
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Old 27th November 2018, 05:40 AM   #307
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Euronews: I'm being 'thrown out' of the European Parliament, says Sinn Fein MEP

"Sinn Fein MEP Martina Anderson told Euronews she would be “thrown out” of the European Parliament in March 2019 because of Brexit.

Anderson and her party called for a Remain vote in the referendum, alongside 56% of the population of Northern Ireland.

Now she says the withdrawal agreement “should pass” in Westminster in December, when UK MPs vote on the entire Brexit deal so far.

“It’s a stepping stone in that there is a special status for Northern Ireland,” she said, but citizens are about to lose their representation as soon as Brexit happens next year."

<Elfo>At least SF voters still have their representation at Westmi... oooh...</Elfo>
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Old 27th November 2018, 05:43 AM   #308
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Leave cheated and is subject to a criminal investigation.


Apparently, nobody cares.

I find this extremely frustrating to the point of being really quite angry about it.
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Old 27th November 2018, 06:36 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Leave cheated and is subject to a criminal investigation.


Apparently, nobody cares.

I find this extremely frustrating to the point of being really quite angry about it.
I fear it's much, much worse than that they cheated. Continuous reporting and investigations have made it clearer and clearer why they cheated and who helped them.
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Old 27th November 2018, 06:44 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Apparently, nobody cares.
Nobody cares and even if they did they wouldn't be able to do anything about it anyway. Which is why it happens in the first place.
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Old 27th November 2018, 06:47 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Leave cheated and is subject to a criminal investigation.


Apparently, nobody cares.

I find this extremely frustrating to the point of being really quite angry about it.
If the overspend affected the results, than it is an admission by the remainers that their ideas are so crappy they can't win under that condition.

Here is an idea...have a policy proposal so good it doesn't matter how much is spent.
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Old 27th November 2018, 06:50 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If the overspend affected the results, than it is an admission by the remainers that their ideas are so crappy they can't win under that condition.

Here is an idea...have a policy proposal so good it doesn't matter how much is spent.
Brilliant logic. If one side cheats its an admission that the other side are losers. Does that work in sport too?
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Old 27th November 2018, 06:55 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Brilliant logic. If one side cheats its an admission that the other side are losers. Does that work in sport too?
Yes. If you are not good enough to win against cheating then you are not good enough. Get better.
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Old 27th November 2018, 07:45 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I fear it's much, much worse than that they cheated. Continuous reporting and investigations have made it clearer and clearer why they cheated and who helped them.
I'd really like some very high profile prosecutions.

I can't see that happening. Something is very, very rotten at no. 10
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Old 27th November 2018, 07:58 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If the overspend affected the results, than it is an admission by the remainers that their ideas are so crappy they can't win under that condition.
It is certainly an admission that the Remain campaign was not very good. Even the remainers were not very enthusiastic about the EU and nobody made a clear case for why it is a good idea to not shred nearly all international agreements and then trying to negotiate new ones. The remainers did not even bother to explain what the EU is and what it does.
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Old 27th November 2018, 08:09 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
It is certainly an admission that the Remain campaign was not very good. Even the remainers were not very enthusiastic about the EU and nobody made a clear case for why it is a good idea to not shred nearly all international agreements and then trying to negotiate new ones. The remainers did not even bother to explain what the EU is and what it does.

I'm still not convinced the leavers wanted to win.

Boris did not seem like a happy man when he received the news.
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Old 27th November 2018, 09:12 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Which means a majority of UK people oppose hard brexit. Seems May actually accomplished a good deal based on that.
Yeah, about 3/4 don't want no-deal, though it's not clear that May's deal is any more popular than that.

The same poll said Leave was now 5% behind Remain, which suggests No-Brexit would certainly* win any 3-way referendum against May's Deal or No Deal, and has a good chance of winning outright.

If No Brexit is what most voters actually want now, their problem is finding a way of getting to vote on it.

*Of course we have to remember that Leave probably never was what the majority wanted, but fewer young voters bothered to turn out and vote. I don't exclude the possibility of their doing it again because people are just people, i.e. stupid.
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Old 27th November 2018, 09:33 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm still not convinced the leavers wanted to win.

Boris did not seem like a happy man when he received the news.
Quite. It was all about his attempt to be Prime Minister.

All the times Boris Johnson called for Britain to stay in the single market
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Old 27th November 2018, 10:03 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by toto View Post
As you said in 4/5/18, in your circles it is normal to jokingly call a friend 'you slut' for still being in a dressing gown and slippers. Is this what you mean here?
In this case, the metaphor is as to a cheap prostitute, being a traitor betraying their country for an inducement or in May's case, because she wants to be (a) liked and (b) cannot countenance not sneaking HER deal in. If you recall, she didn't want a Parliamentary vote and now she is withholding the legal advice, breaching protocol.

Yes, slut means a slovenly woman. In this case, I specifically stated 'a five-quid slut' making clear it was one step beyond slovenliness.
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Old 27th November 2018, 10:06 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It does. If you are not good enough to beat a doper, then get better. People win and lose all the time in sports. We should strive for exceptionalism.
So by that analogy, the cheating Russian athletes should not have been excluded from the Olympics. So it is all right for colluding Russians to tamper with other countries' elections and referendums?
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