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Old 27th November 2018, 10:09 AM   #321
Vixen
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'd really like some very high profile prosecutions.

I can't see that happening. Something is very, very rotten at no. 10
Definitely hiding something. Imagine if Arron Banks had ploughed in an illicit £6million into the remain campaign with doubt it was his own money. There would be Select Committee investigations all over the place and a re-run.
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Old 27th November 2018, 10:12 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
It is certainly an admission that the Remain campaign was not very good. Even the remainers were not very enthusiastic about the EU and nobody made a clear case for why it is a good idea to not shred nearly all international agreements and then trying to negotiate new ones. The remainers did not even bother to explain what the EU is and what it does.
I seriously believe it was the front page campaigns by non-UK, invested newspapers who swung the vote. They know the power of a tabloid front page. Both the SUN and the DAILY MAIL urged the public to vote 'Leave'.

With a readerhip fo over ten million between them, they only needed a small margin of ignorant readers to swing it.
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Old 27th November 2018, 10:52 AM   #323
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Sun and DM readers are ignorant by default.
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Old 27th November 2018, 10:53 AM   #324
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I'm... intrigued by May's idea of a TV debate.

What's the point if there's no meaningful vote by the public?
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Old 27th November 2018, 11:05 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I'm... intrigued by May's idea of a TV debate.

What's the point if there's no meaningful vote by the public?

Propaganda.

Low risk propaganda too, if done on the BBC, an organisation that has completely lost its testicles in relation to Brexit.

There's something deeply fishy there too.
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Old 27th November 2018, 11:12 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Propaganda.

Low risk propaganda too, if done on the BBC, an organisation that has completely lost its testicles in relation to Brexit.

There's something deeply fishy there too.
No wonder May is jittery about it, as she is a lousy debater, relying heavily on rehearsed sound bites ('it's in the national interest') and repetition ('Brexit means Brexit'; 'We are leaving 29 March 2019'). She needs to substitute Amber Rudd, who comes across much more convincingly, as she did in the initial debate. Corbyn will run circles around her.

She relies on personal jibes, he is deadly in how he strikes.
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Old 27th November 2018, 11:56 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So by that analogy, the cheating Russian athletes should not have been excluded from the Olympics. So it is all right for colluding Russians to tamper with other countries' elections and referendums?

I didn't say there shouldnt be punishment for cheaters. I'm simply unsympathetic to inability to defeat a cheater. Get good.
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Old 27th November 2018, 12:07 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I didn't say there shouldnt be punishment for cheaters. I'm simply unsympathetic to inability to defeat a cheater. Get good.
So deontological libertarianism is a crap political philosophy.

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Old 27th November 2018, 12:20 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
So deontological libertarianism is a crap political philosophy.

Dave
Not a deontological libertarian position
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Old 27th November 2018, 01:24 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Low risk propaganda too, if done on the BBC, an organisation that has completely lost its testicles in relation to Brexit.
I was a bit surprised the other day when a reporter mentioned the end of free movement in the form of EU citizens coming to the UK, and also pointed out it applied to Brits moving to Europe, as well. A rare occurrence....
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Old 27th November 2018, 01:38 PM   #331
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Is there a scenario where remainers MPs vote against the deal in hopes of a referendum and then don't get one? That would suck.
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Old 27th November 2018, 02:06 PM   #332
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It already sucks....
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Old 27th November 2018, 02:23 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I was a bit surprised the other day when a reporter mentioned the end of free movement in the form of EU citizens coming to the UK, and also pointed out it applied to Brits moving to Europe, as well. A rare occurrence....
Wait for all the pensioners in spain getting deported back to the UK.
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Old 27th November 2018, 02:51 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Great idea. Next time I'm on a judo mat I'm bringing my swords and let the other guy strive for exceptionalism.

Well, I haven't lost a game of chess since I started bringing my baseball bat.
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Old 27th November 2018, 02:57 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Wait for all the pensioners in spain getting deported back to the UK.
Not to mention all the pensioners who live most of the year in the UK but have second homes out there for the coldest months. There are a bunch of thgem round my way, all of which pontificated (unconvincingly) for Leave.
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Old 27th November 2018, 04:23 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Not to mention all the pensioners who live most of the year in the UK but have second homes out there for the coldest months. There are a bunch of thgem round my way, all of which pontificated (unconvincingly) for Leave.
...Like turkeys voting for Christmas.
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Old 27th November 2018, 05:09 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Is there a scenario where remainers MPs vote against the deal in hopes of a referendum and then don't get one? That would suck.
It's inevitable.
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Old 27th November 2018, 11:01 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...Like turkeys voting for Christmas.
Or dinosaurs for asteroid.
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Old 28th November 2018, 02:30 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Is there a scenario where remainers MPs vote against the deal in hopes of a referendum and then don't get one?
Yes, it's actually a very likely scenario if May utterly refuses to countenance a second referendum, and it's the one the swivel-eyed loons probably want the most.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That would suck.
Yes. At the moment it's difficult to see any outcome that doesn't.

Dave
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Old 28th November 2018, 02:45 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Yes. At the moment it's difficult to see any outcome that doesn't.

Dave
Since before any vote was had it was obvious it was going to suck, but the journalist mostly gave up, the politicians lied and the experts were ignored.

It's a **** up of the mightiest order. I doubt trials for treason will follow, but they bloody well should.
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Old 28th November 2018, 05:17 AM   #341
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Wow, apparently we'll be economically worse off no matter how we exit the EU.

Who would have thought that?
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Old 28th November 2018, 05:21 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Wow, apparently we'll be economically worse off no matter how we exit the EU.

Who would have thought that?
You're just not wishing hard enough.
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Old 28th November 2018, 05:30 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Wow, apparently we'll be economically worse off no matter how we exit the EU.

Who would have thought that?
From the GUARDIAN

Quote:
The keenly-anticipated document concludes that GDP would be 0.6% lower under the Chequers plan in 2035/36 – although that has been ditched after a revolt from the Tory right – and 7.7% lower in the event the UK crashes out with no deal.

In the worst case of all the scenarios modelled, GDP would be 10.7% lower in 15 years’ time, assuming there is no longer any net migration from the EU and EEA.

Remarkably, none of the scenarios modelled exactly approximate to May’s deal agreed over the weekend. But the analysts produced a scenario based on Chequers with 50% higher non-tariff barriers to help with comparison. That held that GDP would be 2.1% lower in 2035/36.

The analysis also concluded that:

• Under a Norway EEA scenario, GDP would be 1.4% lower in 15 years’ time, worse than the additional scenario produced after May’s deal was signed over the weekend.

• Under a Canada-style deal, supported by Boris Johnson and David Davis, the UK would be 4.9% worse off, the study concludes.
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Old 28th November 2018, 06:24 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
You're just not wishing hard enough.
Yep the whole brexit campaign was based on The Secret.
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Old 28th November 2018, 06:34 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Yes, it's actually a very likely scenario if May utterly refuses to countenance a second referendum, and it's the one the swivel-eyed loons probably want the most.



Yes. At the moment it's difficult to see any outcome that doesn't.

Dave
From a remainer perspective, nothing has changed since the vote. So I don't know why they would call for another vote.
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Old 28th November 2018, 06:37 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
AKA Daily Mail readers.
Hmm, I wonder if a certain idea from The Name of the Rose would be applicable...
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Old 28th November 2018, 06:38 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Not to mention all the pensioners who live most of the year in the UK but have second homes out there for the coldest months. There are a bunch of thgem round my way, all of which pontificated (unconvincingly) for Leave.
I recall a news piece before the Referendum in which various Brits in Spain were interviewed. The ones who were permanent residents were mostly very apprehensive and anti-Brexit, but those who had second homes in Spain were pro-Brexit and thought it would have no effect on their ability to use their properties there.
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Old 28th November 2018, 06:41 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
From a remainer perspective, nothing has changed since the vote. So I don't know why they would call for another vote.
Well, 30 months have passed and little progress has been made in the negotiations. The Tories have proved to be hopelessly at sea and the crunch time is fast approaching. Meanwhile, many negative aspects of the various types of possible Brexit have become much clearer and a degree of panic is beginning to appear.

None of that is, strictly speaking, 'change', but a great deal has been learned that was mostly half-known, or just suspected, back at the referendum.
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Old 28th November 2018, 06:44 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I recall a news piece before the Referendum in which various Brits in Spain were interviewed. The ones who were permanent residents were mostly very apprehensive and anti-Brexit, but those who had second homes in Spain were pro-Brexit and thought it would have no effect on their ability to use their properties there.
Provided they don't use them for more than 3 months at a time they probably will be able to come and go freely. Of course they might find they need to get pricey travel insurance to cover them or find out that EU reciprocity on healthcare was one of the things we took back control of!
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Old 28th November 2018, 06:45 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Well, 30 months have passed and little progress has been made in the negotiations. The Tories have proved to be hopelessly at sea and the crunch time is fast approaching. Meanwhile, many negative aspects of the various types of possible Brexit have become much clearer and a degree of panic is beginning to appear.

None of that is, strictly speaking, 'change', but a great deal has been learned that was mostly half-known, or just suspected, back at the referendum.
But that all seems like things remainers said would happen. They have no new knowledge that changes the situation from what they said it was at the time of the vote.
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Old 28th November 2018, 06:53 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But that all seems like things remainers said would happen. They have no new knowledge that changes the situation from what they said it was at the time of the vote.
The knowledge has crystallised and the possible effects are more imminent. There's a greater sense of urgency.

And Leavers have had time to learn about the Brexit consequences of which they were either totally ignorant or chose to ignore.
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Old 28th November 2018, 06:53 AM   #352
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Old 28th November 2018, 07:04 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
The knowledge has crystallised and the possible effects are more imminent. There's a greater sense of urgency.

And Leavers have had time to learn about the Brexit consequences of which they were either totally ignorant or chose to ignore.
Then let the leavers ask for it. Remainers had their say and it hasn't changed.
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Old 28th November 2018, 07:15 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
From a remainer perspective, nothing has changed since the vote. So I don't know why they would call for another vote.
Because it's not the remainer perspective that needed to change. The 48% who voted against leaving have not seen any evidence to suggest we may have made a bad choice, but that's not the choice we're stuck with. The 52% may well have seen evidence that theirs wasn't so good, and may want to change their minds.

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Old 28th November 2018, 07:17 AM   #355
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Do you think leavers/remainers wear little badges to distinguish them?
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Old 28th November 2018, 07:17 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But that all seems like things remainers said would happen. They have no new knowledge that changes the situation from what they said it was at the time of the vote.
It's less about knowledge than about belief. Leavers simply didn't believe that the EU would refuse to give the UK all the benefits of membership with none of the costs. That belief has a great deal more evidence behind it now.

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Old 28th November 2018, 07:18 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Do you think leavers/remainers wear little badges to distinguish them?
Hey, who's been leaking UKIP's next election policies?

Dave
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Old 28th November 2018, 07:37 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
The knowledge has crystallised and the possible effects are more imminent. There's a greater sense of urgency.

And Leavers have had time to learn about the Brexit consequences of which they were either totally ignorant or chose to ignore.
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Because it's not the remainer perspective that needed to change. The 48% who voted against leaving have not seen any evidence to suggest we may have made a bad choice, but that's not the choice we're stuck with. The 52% may well have seen evidence that theirs wasn't so good, and may want to change their minds.

Dave
So let the people who changed their minds ask for a new vote. People who had their voice heard, and haven't changed their position, shouldn't be asking for another vote.
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Old 28th November 2018, 07:38 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
So let the people who changed their minds ask for a new vote. People who had their voice heard, and haven't changed their position, shouldn't be asking for another vote.
How do you know which are which?

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 28th November 2018, 07:40 AM   #360
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
How do you know which are which?

Dave
Im not policing anything. It is guidance for ones own personal conduct. I'm indifferent to people ignoring it.
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