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#361 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
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#362 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 14,583
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Well, don't get me wrong, there were curious people at any point in time. And I don't doubt that some found a way to hitch a ride with someone's caravan or trade ship. I was talking about someone bankrolling an expedition for just curiosity sake. Which we do now, but, as you say, didn't use to be the case in the past.
Basically I base my thesis that we're more adventurous than ever, on the fact that nowadays we're actually willing to spend money on a rocket to Mars when we previously wouldn't pay for a sailing ship to a place where there is no trade or treasure to be found. From a purely economic view that something is worth exactly as much as the customer is willing to pay for it, it seems to me like nowadays pure exploration is more valuable to us than it's ever been. |
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Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand? |
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#363 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
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As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920 |
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#364 |
Lackey
Administrator
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#365 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
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#366 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 11,769
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I suggested upthread that using Mars as a place to do experiments in geoengineering without having to worry about messing things up might make sense.
The search for life (past or present) might also be something we would be willing to spend some money on. But I also don't have too many ideas that make much sense on Mars but not on earth, in orbit, or on the moon, all of which would be cheaper. I was hoping someone else would. |
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#367 |
Hyperthetical
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: A pocket paradise between the sewage treatment plant and the railroad
Posts: 14,470
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That might work, if it turns out that people need higher than Mars gravity for some limited number of hours per week or per day to remain healthy. Put some workstations or exercise equipment on banked-turntable centrifuges and Bob's your uncle. But that might not be the case, and you can't have the entire population of a permanent habitat living on carnival rides all the time. There's no point in even beginning to plan a long-term self-sufficient Mars colony until long-term human tolerance for fractional gravity is better known. A more realistic research station with a rotating crew, analogous to experimental arctic, undersea, and orbital habitats, is a more realistic medium-term goal. But that takes Mars being an offsite backup for the human species off the table, for the time being. |
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#368 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Going back to the "insurance against species extinction" colony on Mars.
I was trying to think of a viable power source the colony would be able to build and maintain. (Sure it would be set up with equipment from Earth but if the apocalypse happens they need to be able to build a replacement from scratch.) I was thinking that wind power would probably be the only viable power source that wouldn't require current day high tech to build and maintain. I can see generators that require probably not much more than basic iron smelting and I'm assuming the rusty planet has abundant and easily accessible iron ore or compounds. But then I started trying to work out how much energy these wind generators would need to provide, how constant that generation would be, how to store excess energy, MTTF & what level of redundancy is required to maintain enough power to survive. On earth in most environments humans have colonised prior to say the 1950s losing power isn't immediately life threatening, but in the totally enclosed environment of a mars settlement can we build them with the technology they can replicate so a few days without power is survivable? Being a massive science fiction fan I've been finding this thread most depressing as I try to get my head around if it is possible to anytime in the nearish future (say 100 years) to even attempt to build a colony that could even in principle be self-sufficient. The more I think of it the less and less I can believe that any kind of self sufficient colony on mars is going to be possible for probably centuries. I'm now thinking it would need Clarke's 3rd law "magic" levels of self-sustaining technology to be able to create such a colony and at that point we no longer need one! |
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#369 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,398
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You gotta go deep underground. That gains you plenty, but most importantly it gains you air pressure and warmth. While you terreform the surface, it's not really good to be there. Let that work take its course while the humans direct the progress from deep below.
If there is life BTW, that's where it will be found too. |
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Scott "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison Biome Carbon Cycle Management |
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#370 |
Terrestrial Intelligence
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Terra Firma
Posts: 6,021
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Wind turbines are starting to be pretty high tech, and with Mars' atmosphere as thin as it is, you are going to need them to be as efficient as they can be.
Quote:
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Maybe windmills on Mars will look more like those old pumping mills on (American) farms rather than modern wind turbines, and use direct mechanical drive to run life support systems. |
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Perhaps nothing is entirely true; and not even that! Multatuli |
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#371 |
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 24,047
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Sounds unlikely to me. The Martian atmosphere has been described as a "laboratory grade vacuum" (0.6% of Earth's atmospheric pressure, iirc). A strong Martian wind - about 60mph is the peak speed - would have the power of a light breeze on Earth (my guess) and it certainly doesn't always blow that strongly. Andy Weir admitted that he knew perfectly well that the dust storm incident that kicked off The Martian's drama was unrealistic, as they were in no great danger and that aerial (?) was certainly not going to be ripped off..
Solar power would be my bet, though, as I mentioned upthread, obtaining some of the more obscure elements could be massively difficult. Ditto nukes. I'm a big SF fan too, but what I find a bit disturbing about threads like is that some are so keen on the proposed futuristic outcomes that they suspend their critical faculties the way we all have to sometimes suspend our disbelief to enjoy SF. And, yes, I know the moon Apollo landings were 'hard', but they were a walk in the park compared to the building of any significant colony on Mars, let alone a self-sustaining one. |
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#372 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,858
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I think you're actually underestimating the problem with this step. The martian atmosphere is so thin (only 1% of the pressure on Earth) that even fast winds exert very little force. The scene at the beginning of The Martian where a storm causes havoc isn't possible, because the wind pressure is just too low.
Solar concentrators (ie, focusing mirrors) combined with sterling engines might work better as a low tech power generation method that could be replicated with available resources. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#373 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,584
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I'm also of the opinion that a truly self-sufficient colony really is still purely in the real of sci fi, but as far as energy for a base goes (a base is realistic,) there's this:
https://www.lanl.gov/newsroom/scienc...r-reactors.php |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend. |
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#374 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
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#375 |
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 24,047
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Before you mention terraforming again, could you at least have the decency to calculate a ballpark figure for the tonneage of O2 it would take to make a breathable Martian atmosphere, ballpark figures for the tonneage of raw materials required and the energy input?
Just typing key words like 'terraform' won't achieve a damn thing. |
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"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut |
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#376 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,398
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That's true.
Current maximum atmospheric pressure on mars at the surface averages 600 pascals It needs to reach 24 kPa to allow working on the surface with an unpressurised oxygen mask. But I am told to obtain that density it would require an external source like comets or icy asteroids. Even releasing the oxygen from the iron by either refining or by extremophile biological means wouldn't be enough. Here is the math on all that:
Quote:
So the only solution in the meantime I personally can think of is going deep underground. The pressure would be higher already and warmer too and easier to seal off and insulate living quarters. ![]() |
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Scott "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison Biome Carbon Cycle Management |
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#377 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
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#378 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,621
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#379 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 14,583
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Why not? Most SF space stations are a big carnival ride. Babylon 5 was a big carnival ride for example.
In a Mars bunker it would probably make a bit more noise and use more power, but otherwise there's not much of a difference from having one in space. Going in and out would still be through the middle, so you can even go out or to visit someone on another "carnival ride". |
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Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand? |
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#380 |
Hyperthetical
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: A pocket paradise between the sewage treatment plant and the railroad
Posts: 14,470
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Yeah, along with the program to recruit 24-inch-tall astronauts to live in it... Sorry; kidding. Yeah, the experiments that would have made possible would be very useful. Human tests are also necessary eventually, but a lot of groundwork (ironically rather far from the ground) could have been accomplished already. |
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#381 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,621
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#382 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#383 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 14,583
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Well, in the sense that we could do it with today's tech if we had basically infinite money (or more accurately, infinite industrial capacity) to throw at it, it is just a financial problem. And in the sense that we'd need to also not care about giving cancer and leukemia to a significant number of colonists on the way there, you could also say it's a political problem.
It's a technology problem only if you want it to be realistically feasible and safe. |
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Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand? |
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#384 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 3,101
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My obsession with Mars? The Martian Chronicles, by Ray Bradbury. The Sands of Mars, Arthur C. Clarke. Much later; The Mars Trilogy, Kim Stanley Robinson. The Martian, Andy Weir (apart from the silly thing with the antenna).
Can't help it - I'm obsessed! |
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#385 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,621
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To be quite clear, when I say go to Mars, I mean just go, in the expeditionary sense. That might include up to an Antarctic research station type operation, although, they're pretty big these days. I know nothing of colonizing Mars in terms of a long term self-sustaining population. Nobody does. It's sci-fi, right now.
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#386 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#387 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,856
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This sounds a lot like the proposals for Moon trips in the early '50s. Von Braun had a plan that was workable within known technology, but impossibly optimistic in terms of cost, resources and reliability because of the huge number of launches needed.
In less than twenty years technological development made the trip possible with a budget we could afford. I certainly don't know that a similar degree of improvement will be seen over the next twenty, but am confident that there will be advances that I can't predict. I'm encouraged that this is no longer an exclusively government operation. Competition, and cooperation with commercial entities and other countries will allow the exploration of more technologies, and spread the costs and benefits. |
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#388 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 14,583
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Personally what I hope for is fusion, really. That's really the only thing that would make that kind of trip cheap.
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Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand? |
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#389 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 11,769
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#390 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 11,769
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#391 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 11,769
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Personally I think we need genetically engineered termites capable of building and operating nuclear power plants.
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#392 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,451
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Opinion:
A committed space-faring species would not colonize planets at all. Why fight their way out of one gravity well only to descend into another one and struggle against staggering odds to make the new gravity well habitable? That doesn't make sense to me. They would simply build self-sustaining habitats outside the gravity wells. Planets would be for resource extraction and orbital parking. Little doggies that don't know how to do that better stay on the porch. |
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#393 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 14,583
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Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand? |
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#394 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 10,352
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__________________
As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920 |
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#395 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,842
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We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good. |
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#396 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 11,769
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#397 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 11,769
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Sure, but it still depends on how it's realised. Nuclear fission isn't all that cheap at present despite the high energy density of the fuel because of the complexity and difficulty actually extracting that energy from the fuel.
I'm just not sure fusion will be any better than fission in that regard. |
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#398 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 11,769
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Do you have any reason to think that it wouldn't be the case? I mean, what specific sorts of health problems do you think could arise from low-gravity that don't exist in zero-gravity?
If your objection is just "Well, you never no, there could be something unexpected" that's fine, but I don't put the probability very high with respect to this particular concern. |
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#399 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 14,583
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About fission:
Well, it will be better because if anything goes wrong, it just fizzles. Whereas if a rocket goes boom on the way up, with fission you can end up spreading fallout over 3 states. About micro-gravity health problems: Personally I expect them to be the same as in no gravity. |
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Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand? |
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#400 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 11,769
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I'm with you 100%.
I also tentatively support the idea of trying to extract lunar water as a potential propellant. If it could be done at scale it might make interplanetary travel much cheaper. Also another good step to any sort of Mars project. I say tentatively because I haven't really looked at the numbers with respect to what sort of scale we'd have to reach before such a project could pay for it's initial investment, I suspect that number is very large. |
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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