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Old 30th November 2018, 07:23 AM   #161
HansMustermann
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Sure, but I don't think we need to discuss the plan on such a level in order to agree on the feasibility, necessity or usefulness of such a project. As I said earlier, extinction is a certainty if we stay in one spot. To me, that's a strong incentive to spread out regardless of the cost or difficulties. I understand the political hurdles, but that's not what we're discussing, I think.
Well, maybe not discuss it here, but it would be useful to know that such a plan even exists. Otherwise it's just a vague idea, not a plan. And then no, we DON'T know the feasibility.

Since I've used flight as an analogy before, history is full of dudes who thought that glueing feathers to their sleeves is a plan. With various degrees of hilarity ensuing. No, really, we have actual examples in recorded history. Or in the more familiar domain of space flight, we have wise guys like Wan Hu who thought gluing fireworks to a chair would get him to the moon.

Agreeing that indeed it's a valid goal to get to the moon, and that the basic principle that rockets can push one upwards, doesn't mean one should have agreed to the feasibility of the dude's flying chair getting him to the moon.

If you want the rest of humanity to pay an exorbitant cost for your fantasy, show that you (or someone else) actually did the maths and made a plan.
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:31 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
The question is, how long? It's certain for Mars too, in the sufficiently long term, so are we just increasing our survival expectation time by about 40%? And of course it's certain for the whole inner solar system in the somewhat longer term. If we want to survive past a few billion more years, we'll need interstellar travel too.

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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
If you want the rest of humanity to pay an exorbitant cost for your fantasy, show that you (or someone else) actually did the maths and made a plan.
It's not fantasy that our existence on Earth is doomed in the long term.
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:38 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
It doesn't even take another whole planet to collide with us.

There is a the myth out there that THIS is what a planet killing impact would look like.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5dih402lxc...ntro.jpg?raw=1

In fact, a collision of this order of magnitude hasn't happened since the Earth collided with Theia to form the moon 4˝ billion years ago.

In reality this is the relative size of rock needed to wipe out life on Earth
I'd like to address the real myth there, if we're at this point. Because if you can make a base that can survive on a barren planet with no atmosphere, you can equally make one on Earth that will survive anything short of a Theia impact. If you can make a dome that can be self-sufficient ad infinitum on Mars, you can make an equally self sufficient bubble underwater, that will be totally unfazed by meteor-induced climate change, volcanic erruptions, direct gamma ray burst hits, global thermonuclear war (at least as long as they don't depth-charge the base), or anything short of a Theia impact.

So, yes, the only thing that would need a Mars base as redundancy IS something that only happened once in last 5 billion years, and only then as an effect of how the accretion disk accreted. The chances for another Theia accreting in our orbit even in another 5 billion years are ZERO, because the accretion disk isn't there any more.
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:42 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's not fantasy that our existence on Earth is doomed in the long term.
No, the fantasy is that you have a plan.
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:44 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
No, the fantasy is that you have a plan.
Well, I don't have a plan. Do I look like a colony engineer?

So I guess you're right. It's someone's fantasy, but it ain't mine.
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:45 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I'd like to address the real myth there, if we're at this point. Because if you can make a base that can survive on a barren planet with no atmosphere, you can equally make one on Earth that will survive anything short of a Theia impact. If you can make a dome that can be self-sufficient ad infinitum on Mars, you can make an equally self sufficient bubble underwater, that will be totally unfazed by meteor-induced climate change, volcanic erruptions, direct gamma ray burst hits, global thermonuclear war (at least as long as they don't depth-charge the base), or anything short of a Theia impact.

So, yes, the only thing that would need a Mars base as redundancy IS something that only happened once in last 5 billion years, and only then as an effect of how the accretion disk accreted. The chances for another Theia accreting in our orbit even in another 5 billion years are ZERO, because the accretion disk isn't there any more.
The problem with your scenario is that while we can take decades or more to build and secure one or several colonies on other worlds, we'd have to react to a major and sudden change on Earth on a very short timescale. Yes, if we can survive on Mars we can survive on Earth post-apocalypse, but you'd have to survive the apocalypse first. Mars doesn't require that.
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Old 30th November 2018, 08:11 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The problem with your scenario is that while we can take decades or more to build and secure one or several colonies on other worlds, we'd have to react to a major and sudden change on Earth on a very short timescale. Yes, if we can survive on Mars we can survive on Earth post-apocalypse, but you'd have to survive the apocalypse first. Mars doesn't require that.
Eh?

You seem to be viewing a Mars colony as if somehow it's invulnerable to the same kind of 'apocalypse' that would decimate the Earth's population. We'd look pretty damn stupid if we spent a few centuries and a $quadrillion on the Mars colony only to see it wrecked by an asteroid impact.
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Old 30th November 2018, 08:11 AM   #168
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Non Sequitur


It would probably cost a fraction and take a fraction of the time, to build 10 self-sufficient-most-impact-proof colonies underground or in the ocean somewhere on earth than one on Mars.
Ten colonies here might even give humanity a better chance at survival after an impact than one colony on Mars has, just surviving Mars. In the foreseeable future at least.


In spite of that I think we will have a colony on mars before we have one underground on earth somewhere.
The only reason for a colony underground here, is to save humanity from uncertain calamity. I don't think we are at a stage where it will happen without a definite deadly threat on the way, then it might be too late. It will have to be specifically planned and implemented.

A Mars colony on the other hand will, imo, just happen naturally when it's possible and feasible... just because. People seem to have an obsession with mars.

It will evolve, more than being planned. It will take very long.
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Old 30th November 2018, 08:14 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Eh?

You seem to be viewing a Mars colony as if somehow it's invulnerable to the same kind of 'apocalypse' that would decimate the Earth's population. We'd look pretty damn stupid if we spent a few centuries and a $quadrillion on the Mars colony only to see it wrecked by an asteroid impact.
No, what I meant is that building the Mars colony doesn't require an apocalypse as an impetus, so we have more time to build it. If we build one here, it'll be on a near-impossible time constraint.
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Old 30th November 2018, 08:14 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Eh?

You seem to be viewing a Mars colony as if somehow it's invulnerable to the same kind of 'apocalypse' that would decimate the Earth's population. We'd look pretty damn stupid if we spent a few centuries and a $quadrillion on the Mars colony only to see it wrecked by an asteroid impact.
How is people don't get the whole "Eggs in one basket" thing?

An asteroid impact can't take out both Earth and Mars and if we get separate extinction level impacts on both Earth and Mars in the same general timeframe... give up we've obviously angered some old Lovecraftian God.

They are reasonable, hell inevitable, things which will end life on Earth sooner or later. Spreading our selves around is our only chance for long term survival as a species.
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Old 30th November 2018, 09:16 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
How is people don't get the whole "Eggs in one basket" thing?

An asteroid impact can't take out both Earth and Mars and if we get separate extinction level impacts on both Earth and Mars in the same general timeframe... give up we've obviously angered some old Lovecraftian God.

They are reasonable, hell inevitable, things which will end life on Earth sooner or later. Spreading our selves around is our only chance for long term survival as a species.
I get the "eggs" thing totally. Except that in the case of Mars we're putting a few eggs into a concrete basket that's getting bounced around in the back of the car.

Meanwhile, if it's (say) a million years until the Mars colony proves useful in this respect, then are we justified in subjecting 40,000 generations of humans to a relentlessly bleak existence 'for the benefit of the species'?
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Old 30th November 2018, 09:17 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, I don't have a plan. Do I look like a colony engineer?

So I guess you're right. It's someone's fantasy, but it ain't mine.
Well, duly noted. But I'm not any happier to pay for someone exercise in wishful thinking either. I mean, at least if it were yours, I like you, but that other guy? I don't even know him
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Old 30th November 2018, 09:22 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
How is people don't get the whole "Eggs in one basket" thing?

An asteroid impact can't take out both Earth and Mars and if we get separate extinction level impacts on both Earth and Mars in the same general timeframe... give up we've obviously angered some old Lovecraftian God.

They are reasonable, hell inevitable, things which will end life on Earth sooner or later. Spreading our selves around is our only chance for long term survival as a species.
I'll even agree that the general problem exists, but do you have a PLAN? Because otherwise just doing some nonsense in the name of some form of 'but we have to do SOMETHING' can still be doing something stupid, and not even solving the problem in the process.

And generally i wish more people were familiar with the game of Go. See, in Chess you have to do SOMETHING, even if every available move actually makes your situation worse. But OMG you have to do SOMETHING.

In Go, you don't. Both at a local and at a global scope. If you can't save a group of pieces, trapped by the opponent in a corner, then write them off as dead and concentrate on taking territory somewhere else. In Go you let Private Ryan die. And ditto globally. If you can't make any move that actually makes your situation any better, then don't make any move.

The idea that OMG you have to do SOMETHING would just mark one as a total noob in Go.
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Old 30th November 2018, 09:34 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
The idea that OMG you have to do SOMETHING would just mark one as a total noob in Go.

If you're opponent passes then, if you want to keep playing, you have to make a move.
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Old 30th November 2018, 09:38 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I'll even agree that the general problem exists, but do you have a PLAN? Because otherwise just doing some nonsense in the name of some form of 'but we have to do SOMETHING' can still be doing something stupid, and not even solving the problem in the process.

And generally i wish more people were familiar with the game of Go. See, in Chess you have to do SOMETHING, even if every available move actually makes your situation worse. But OMG you have to do SOMETHING.

In Go, you don't. Both at a local and at a global scope. If you can't save a group of pieces, trapped by the opponent in a corner, then write them off as dead and concentrate on taking territory somewhere else. In Go you let Private Ryan die. And ditto globally. If you can't make any move that actually makes your situation any better, then don't make any move.

The idea that OMG you have to do SOMETHING would just mark one as a total noob in Go.
But "spread the species out" is the only viable solution and you're arguing that we shouldn't do because there no easy way to do it.

Yeah any off planet population of people is going to be a horrible sink of time and resources and is going to have a very high risk factor. You're going to be able to find something wrong with any way we do it without looking that hard.

But keeping this species entirely on this planet will end us all sooner or later or we have zero idea of how long that timeframe is. An extinction level asteroid could hit any day. The Yellowstone Supervolcano could erupt any minute. A plague could develop in weeks. ABBA could release another album.

We're not Chicken Little in this scenario, we're the ants and you're the Grasshopper.
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Old 30th November 2018, 09:39 AM   #176
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In GO does a rock randomly fall out of the sky at random and kill both people playing while one player is waiting to make the perfect move?

Then no the comparison doesn't work.
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Old 30th November 2018, 09:48 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
TYes, if we can survive on Mars we can survive on Earth post-apocalypse, but you'd have to survive the apocalypse first. Mars doesn't require that.
Mars is already a worse post-apocalyptic wasteland than most post-apocalyptic Earth scenarios. The point is not that if we could survive on Mars we could survive on Earth. The point is that we can survive on Earth for a fraction of the effort it would take to survive on Mars.
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Old 30th November 2018, 09:50 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
In GO does a rock randomly fall out of the sky at random and kill both people playing while one player is waiting to make the perfect move?
Only if I'm losing.
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Old 30th November 2018, 09:50 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, I don't have a plan. Do I look like a colony engineer?


So I guess you're right. It's someone's fantasy, but it ain't mine.
You're the one who said we could start now and be done in a few centuries. Where does that claim come from, if not a plan? If you're making the claim, but don't have the plan, then it's definitely your fantasy.
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Old 30th November 2018, 10:40 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Actually, I think it IS flat out crazy. Not impossible, but crazy to even think about sustaining that kind of costs for ever.

Because here's the dirty little secret: the job isn't completed when you chucked some ice meteors at Mars and whatnot. The problem with Mars is that you don't actually have the gravity to hold on to that atmosphere, nor the magnetic shielding to hold on to the water. Solar radiation will break water vapour apart and blow away the hydrogen. (See what already happened to Venus, or yes, Mars.) It'll be like trying to inflate a balloon that has a hole on the other side.

So you don't just have insane costs to do it once, you have insane running costs from there to eternity.

So it's not impossible technically, but yes it IS crazy.
Out of context. I was referring to the Earth side of that terraforming comment. We easily have the technology to terraform Earth and restore ecosystem function to the 1/3 of the land surface we severely degraded so far..... and even restore much of the oceans, and certainly reverse AGW and the current extinction event we have triggered and are living in now, the Anthropocene. That's the technology we have but are not using.

as for Mars? Once we terraform Earth? Sure. Go for it. Let's get our priorities in order though. Earth First!
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Old 30th November 2018, 12:58 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But "spread the species out" is the only viable solution and you're arguing that we shouldn't do because there no easy way to do it.

Yeah any off planet population of people is going to be a horrible sink of time and resources and is going to have a very high risk factor. You're going to be able to find something wrong with any way we do it without looking that hard.

But keeping this species entirely on this planet will end us all sooner or later or we have zero idea of how long that timeframe is. An extinction level asteroid could hit any day. The Yellowstone Supervolcano could erupt any minute. A plague could develop in weeks. ABBA could release another album.

We're not Chicken Little in this scenario, we're the ants and you're the Grasshopper.
Dude, you're just dodging the question in there: DO YOU HAVE A PLAN? As in, one with calculated costs, a timeframe, etc. Is it REALISTICALLY feasible? And do you get actual redundancy at the end of it?

Otherwise it's just a vague idea and a lot of flailing and handwaving.
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Old 30th November 2018, 01:05 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Dude, you're just dodging the question in there: DO YOU HAVE A PLAN? As in, one with calculated costs, a timeframe, etc. Is it REALISTICALLY feasible? And do you get actual redundancy at the end of it?
I never claimed to have "A PLAN" I just have a goal.

If the buildings burning down around you do you make everystop and explain their evacuation plan, submit it to committee, do a full risk-factor/reward study on it?

But I guess the species can just die at any moment because you don't think "it's worth it."
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Old 30th November 2018, 01:10 PM   #183
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"I would like the species to survive the destruction of this planet..."

"SHOW ME YOUR EXACT PLAN FOR ACCOMPLISHING THIS! I WANT CHARTS AND 3 DIFFERENT QUOTES ON THE COST NOW!"

"ALSO PROVE TO ME MANKIND IS WORTH SAVING!"
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Old 30th November 2018, 01:34 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"I would like the species to survive the destruction of this planet..."
Fair enough. Let's suppose we eventually have two sources of human life, Earth and Mars.

What then? If Mars is required for 'survival of the species' then surely we need to plan for the extinction of one of those two locations, no?

While I don't think Mars is a viable proposition I'll happily admit it's the only possibility. And, assuming that Venus, Mercury, 'floating cities', Europa and the rest are totally pure SF, all that seems to be left are exoplanets and 'generation ships' to reach them. Likely SF too, but let's allow it.

If that's a reasonable stance, then I'd say that the Martian colony will be in no position to build one (or three, for redundancy) so, therefore, we Earthlings need to get our fingers out, find suitable exoplanets and build the generation ships. Then park a couple in Mars orbit so the Martians can populate them and head off in the event that Earth gets splatted first.

OK, a million years of maintenance of those ships would be a real nuisance (or impossible, frankly) so they might as well take off as soon as we find a suitable destination.

Here we have The Plan. Colonise every plausible location, no matter what the cost, just to be sure.

Unfortunately the Republicans, in 2116, would rather reduce taxes on the most wealthy from 1% to 0.5% and withdraw funding for the Space Colonisation program, leaving quarter-constructed hulks in Earth orbit. And half the US population starving. And the Chinese economy had collapsed 70 years earlier, along with that of much of the EU, post-Brexit. Rising sea water has long since inundated major population areas and damaged remaining economies, while AGW hurricanes, mudslides and wildfires are rampant.

But, hey, let's ensure our survival by colonising space.

Good Plan!
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Old 30th November 2018, 01:50 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Fair enough. Let's suppose we eventually have two sources of human life, Earth and Mars.

What then? If Mars is required for 'survival of the species' then surely we need to plan for the extinction of one of those two locations, no?
I really trying my best not be snarky here but I don't know how else to explain this.

If you backup your computer you don't immediately back up the back up and back up the backup's back up into infinity.

Having a second established population of humanity off Earth just increases the odds of single event not ending the species.

I wasn't aware this would be such a controversial statement that would requires some fully realized plan.
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Old 30th November 2018, 02:19 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Ever heard of the chlorine attacks in WW1? Yeah, because that's what you're proposing
Nah. Oxygen production happens late in the process (if it happens at all). CFCs don't persist long in the Martian atmosphere.

Quote:
So yeeaah, about that... do you actually want an atmosphere with a significant proportion of CFC? I don't think you'd want to breathe in the result in the evening, even if you add oxygen into the mix
CFCs are only there to kick-start the greenhouse effect. After there's a significant concentration of CO2 it's not especially necessary.

If you're really worried about it, there are other compounds with similar properties and no chlorine atom (CF4, for example), and other methods of kickstarting the greenhouse effect.
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Old 30th November 2018, 02:34 PM   #187
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Old 30th November 2018, 02:53 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I never claimed to have "A PLAN" I just have a goal.
A goal without a plan seems useless. At some point you have to move beyond "nice to have" and get on with the work of "and here's how I plan to get it."

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If the buildings burning down around you do you make everystop and explain their evacuation plan, submit it to committee, do a full risk-factor/reward study on it?
The common practice is to devise, review, and approve the plan before the place is on fire. Modern building codes usually embed most of that work in the certified construction of the building itself.

The Earth isn't "on fire" at the moment, so now would probably be the perfect time for you to start working on that plan.

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But I guess the species can just die at any moment because you don't think "it's worth it."
I guess the species can just die at any time because even though you seem to fervently believe it's worth saving, you can't be arsed to actually come up with a plan to get it done.

What if I told you that even though I will probably never buy into your belief, I might very well buy into your plan if you had one?
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Old 30th November 2018, 02:58 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"I would like the species to survive the destruction of this planet..."
Seems like a lot of work. How do you plan to accomplish this?

Quote:
"SHOW ME YOUR EXACT PLAN FOR ACCOMPLISHING THIS! I WANT CHARTS AND 3 DIFFERENT QUOTES ON THE COST NOW!"
Show me something more than angry ranting, at least.

Quote:
"ALSO PROVE TO ME MANKIND IS WORTH SAVING!"
If "saving mankind" is your argument for why I should buy into your plan, then yes, you'll have to try convince me that mankind is worth saving. Oh, and you'll also have to actually have some kind of plan for me to buy into.

Into which for me to buy.

Why are you so aggravated by the idea that a goal as noble as saving the human race should have a plan to go with it? Why are you so intent on pushing the goal but not the plan? If you really believed in the goal, wouldn't you be hell-bent on devising the plan?
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Old 30th November 2018, 03:02 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I really trying my best not be snarky here but I don't know how else to explain this.

If you backup your computer you don't immediately back up the back up and back up the backup's back up into infinity.
Correct. I agree totally.

But, a computer backup is not life-critical. If you lose the computer or its backup you can get another backup in a day or less. Or you can start from scratch without a huge cost.

Building the 'humanity backup' is the work of centuries and large proportions of the Earth's GDP. The backup to the backup ... ditto. Meanwhile the computer itself is smouldering.

Not trying to be snarky, but I don't get how you don't get this.
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Old 30th November 2018, 03:37 PM   #191
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I thought the bush robot study I referenced upthread was enlightening.

Bush robots are potentially - hypothetically - amazing. If we had fully-realized bush robots, we wouldn't need Mars colonies. Bush robots would solve every problem. Hell, humanity would be bush robots. We should probably drop everything and start working on bush robots exclusively.

But it turns out there's too much groundwork still to be laid out, before we can realistically think about working on bush robots. Conversely, once the enabling technologies for bush robots are mastered, bush robots themselves won't require massive effort, we'll just make them. The same way we just made Amazon, and Twitter, and Netflix... once the enabling technologies were perfected.

If Charles Babbage had proposed a streaming video service in 1830, people would have been amazed. And then they would have pointed out that first he'd have to invent a bunch of new technology, and build out a bunch of new infrastructure, and that it would take a couple hundred years to really get going on that.

The enabling technologies for bush robots will get developed, regardless of whether people intentionally plan to build bush robots. A millionfold increase in computing power is just that desirable. Same, I suspect, with the enabling technologies for a viable Mars colony.

Upthread I mentioned one such technology - cheap and reliable human space travel. I described a program of development that we could start today, that would eventually achieve that result. It would produce other useful results along the way, and would also set us on a path to the colonization of Mars.

But none of the Romantic Survivalists wanted to talk about that. Instead, the Romantic Survivalists want to yell at us for asking about their plans.
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Old 30th November 2018, 06:46 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I never claimed to have "A PLAN" I just have a goal.
Well, I have the goal to be elected Holy Roman Emperor. But without a plan, that's not worth beans. Nor much of my reason to throw my money down a random hole that doesn't get me anywhere near the goal of actually getting elected.

Hell, there are probably thousands each year who lost all their money in Vegas, when the goal was to get out of debt. But the "I'll just win the jackpot in Vegas" plan wasn't exactly the right plan for the job. Not only it didn't help get them to the goal, it actually took them FARTHER from the goal. That's why you need to put more thought into how you go about achieving a goal than "OMG, WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!" Because the problem with doing some random SOMETHING is that for each "something" that's even in the right direction, there are way more which aren't helpful or are even harmful.
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Old 30th November 2018, 08:02 PM   #193
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Is the actual destruction of the planet actually reasonably likely in the next 1k years? By "destruction" I mean something along the lines of "no animal life forms will survive"...?
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Old 30th November 2018, 08:07 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Upthread I mentioned one such technology - cheap and reliable human space travel. I described a program of development that we could start today, that would eventually achieve that result. It would produce other useful results along the way, and would also set us on a path to the colonization of Mars.

But none of the Romantic Survivalists wanted to talk about that. Instead, the Romantic Survivalists want to yell at us for asking about their plans.
I'm totally down with your idea, but I'm basically a godless commie. Unfortunately, I don't see even your modest proposal taking off under our current hyper-capitalist regime of global finance. Nobody's going to do it unless there's a financial payoff in the near future. Maybe government would if it was framed as a matter of "national security", heh.
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Old 30th November 2018, 08:50 PM   #195
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Those of you talking about hanky-panky as an element in population sustainability are missing an important point. Men are a relatively inefficient way to store sperm. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a colony of women, and a supply of frozen sperm?

Assuming pregnancy isn't obsolete.
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Old 30th November 2018, 09:47 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Wow. Double wow. No, he hasn't. Shame on you.

You might want to, double wow, read all of the posts you are defending before you come galloping in and white knighting. Shame on you. (I'm assuming you will be giving smartcooky an apology. Of course you will choose instead to focus on the position of the goalposts.)


Either way you are dead to rights wrong:


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And all that for what? Just so you can feel good about the idea that at some point in the future there could still be humans breeding on Mars even if there are none left on Earth? That seems like a pretty pointless goal, to me.

Chixculub may have killed all the dinosaurs, but they don't seem to be any worse off for the fact that none of them are around to complain about it.
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Old 30th November 2018, 10:53 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Lay it out for me. How many centuries is "a few"? What are the steps? How long will each step take? How many people do you need to put on Mars? How much biomass? How long will it take to set up the ecosystem and the industrial base? How will you guarantee the necessary breeding rate? How will you guarantee the needed education and skillsets? Etc.


Your philosophy is nonsensical.

It boils down to this:

"Don't ever begin to attempt something until you have every single step done already."

Umm.... if every single step is already done, then so would be the "something".



Me: "I want to drive to Chicago."

theprestige: "Are you crazy?? Have you researched which state Chicago is in? Do you know exactly how many miles it is? Do you know the price of gasoline next Tuesday?? And most importantly, have you driven to Chicago yet???"

Me: "Um, thanks for pointing out all of the obvious things I will have to do."


No one is under the impression that going to Mars is easy. You pointing it out repeatedly is nonsensical.
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Old 1st December 2018, 03:37 AM   #198
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The difference is that other people have driven to Chicago before, so we not only know it's possible, but exactly how it's done. So your analogy would only hold any water if we were talking about the second or third Mars colony.
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Old 1st December 2018, 03:57 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
No one is under the impression that going to Mars is easy. You pointing it out repeatedly is nonsensical.
And based on that philosophy...

Tasman, Cook, Columbus, Magellan, DaGama, the Polynesians et al would never have gone on their voyages of discovery

The Amerinds, Aborigines and the Maori would never have migrated and occupied the lands they did

New Zealand, Australia, the Americas and the Far east would never have been colonised.

ETA: Oh, and I forgot... Apollo would never have happened.

Humans have always been voyagers, explorers, discoverers. Its in our DNA... perhaps some of us have had our DNA diluted.
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Old 1st December 2018, 06:36 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's why we have to be everywhere.



It's not fantasy that our existence on Earth is doomed in the long term.
Even if we colonise other galaxies, our existence is doomed in the long term.
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